Taylor Hall For Adam Larsson V | 4,000+ Posts and Counting!

[Philly85*]

Thats a little arrogant...no? You are suggesting that there is no valid reason to discuss the nuts and bolts of this deal?

What possible reason could you have for suggesting such a thing. Its it because its so obvious the Oilers lost this deal that you just dont want to hear it anymore?

Why not just accept the fact that they did lose this deal and go from there?
Then you can then include the Lucic signing and the dumb luck of getting Puljujarvi and how they will help mitigate the loss of Hall.

I just wonder, is there anyone out there (really), who believes the Oilers could've "won" a trade with one of the prize assets off their roster, when it's common knowledge how desperate the team is in looking for help on the blueline?

I mean don't get me wrong the Hall trade was a painful one to swallow at the time and once the offseason came I was in the "keep Hall" camp... and I also understand how on the surface one could perceive it to be fairly lopsided in favour of NJ, but after a bit of time I believe this kind of scenario was unavoidable.

Clearly Chiarelli and coaching staff had some thoughts on the departing player and what needed to be done moving forward. And indeed they WERE able to draft Pulju and sign Lucic. So it all factors in. But yes I agree, it would've been nice to get a bit more for Hall but I doubt it was realistic.

Team has been **** for a long time, Taylor Hall being here or not, I'm fine with the change now that I've had time to process everything and believe time will tell it was both the right and necessary move.

 

[belair]

Thats a little arrogant...no? You are suggesting that there is no valid reason to discuss the nuts and bolts of this deal?

What possible reason could you have for suggesting such a thing. Its it because its so obvious the Oilers lost this deal that you just dont want to hear it anymore?

Why not just accept the fact that they did lose this deal and go from there?
The you can then include the Lucic signing and the dumb luck of getting Puljujarvi and how they will help mitigate the loss of Hall.

Not arrogant, it's a logical way of looking at it. I was pissed too. I had a **** fit when I heard about it, did some light reading on both players and the teams and have come to the conclusion that Taylor Hall isn't the key cog that we were led to believe, he's just a very good individual hockey player.

The nuts and bolts of the deal were to take from a position of organizational depth to address a weakness. We had scorers. Some who scored and some who should score, but haven't. Obviously the former are the ones other teams were going to ask for.

Personally I believe that the deal doesn't go down unless Chiarelli was certain that Lucic was signing. Obviously there's no record of that conversation but it's obviously redundant now. And to be completely honest, I wasn't supportive of Lucic signing unless it was Hall that was gone, cap considered.

And the 'dumb luck' of getting Puljujarvi doesn't really factor in either because I don't expect any more than 30 points from him this year anyways. He's Purcell at his worst to me currently. But if we didn't get him, we were still filling that hole elsewhere via FA.

The fact of the matter is that the market for good right-handed, top-pairing was quite literally non-existent at the time of the trade. And the guy we got wasn't available to anyone unless the name going back sent shock-waves. So you can say we lost the trade until the cows come home, but I'll stick to my guns and say October 1st we're a better hockey team and New Jersey isn't.

 

[Dorian2]

I think this is entirely valid which is part of the reason why I am not closing the book on Larsson becoming a better offensive dman.

He is also going to get more offensive zone starts which will help as well. The one thing Larsson really needs to improve on though is his shot. His shot simply isnt good enough. That has to improve before Larsson is truly going to take the next step in terms of his offence.

Good to know about his shot, or lack thereof. One thing that interested me was someone on 1260 had mentioned that Larsson really dug into the defensive aspect of his game in Jersey learning wise, which seems to have paid dividends for him. Hopefully he can continue that here AND getting more into an offensive mindset. He sounds like he's a hard worker in the least.

BTW, I edited the post you responded to FYI.

 

[nabob]

I just wonder, is there anyone out there (really), who believes the Oilers could've "won" a trade with one of the prize assets off their roster, when it's common knowledge how desperate the team is in looking for help on the blueline?

I mean don't get me wrong the Hall trade was a painful one to swallow at the time and once the offseason came I was in the "keep Hall" camp... and I also understand how on the surface one could perceive it to be fairly lopsided in favour of NJ, but after a bit of time I believe this kind of scenario was unavoidable.

Clearly Chiarelli and coaching staff had some thoughts on the departing player and what needed to be done moving forward. And indeed they WERE able to draft Pulju and sign Lucic. So it all factors in. But yes I agree, it would've been nice to get a bit more for Hall but I doubt it was realistic.

Team has been **** for a long time, Taylor Hall being here or not, I'm fine with the change now that I've had time to process everything and believe time will tell it was both the right and necessary move.

Not arrogant, it's a logical way of looking at it. I was pissed too. I had a **** fit when I heard about it, did some light reading on both players and the teams and have come to the conclusion that Taylor Hall isn't the key cog that we were led to believe, he's just a very good individual hockey player.

The nuts and bolts of the deal were to take from a position of organizational depth to address a weakness. We had scorers. Some who scored and some who should score, but haven't. Obviously the former are the ones other teams were going to ask for.

Personally I believe that the deal doesn't go down unless Chiarelli was certain that Lucic was signing. Obviously there's no record of that conversation but it's obviously redundant now. And to be completely honest, I wasn't supportive of Lucic signing unless it was Hall that was gone, cap considered.

And the 'dumb luck' of getting Puljujarvi doesn't really factor in either because I don't expect any more than 30 points from him this year anyways. He's Purcell at his worst to me currently. But if we didn't get him, we were still filling that hole elsewhere via FA.

The fact of the matter is that the market for good right-handed, top-pairing was quite literally non-existent at the time of the trade. And the guy we got wasn't available to anyone unless the name going back sent shock-waves. So you can say we lost the trade until the cows come home, but I'll stick to my guns and say October 1st we're a better hockey team and New Jersey isn't.

Add these together with Fourier's earlier analysis and that exactly how I feel.

 

[guymez]

I just wonder, is there anyone out there (really), who believes the Oilers could've "won" a trade with one of the prize assets off their roster, when it's common knowledge how desperate the team is in looking for help on the blueline?

I mean don't get me wrong the Hall trade was a painful one to swallow at the time and once the offseason came I was in the "keep Hall" camp... and I also understand how on the surface one could perceive it to be fairly lopsided in favour of NJ, but after a bit of time I don't see how this sort of scenario was unavoidable.

Clearly Chiarelli and coaching staff had some thoughts on the departing player and what needed to be done moving forward. And indeed they WERE able to draft Pulju and sign Lucic. So it all factors in. But yes I agree, it would've been nice to get a bit more for Hall but I doubt it was realistic.

Team has been **** for a long time, Taylor Hall being here or not, I'm fine with the change now that I've had time to process everything and believe time will tell it was both the right and necessary move.

The thing is we will never know if the Oilers 'won the deal'. For me I didnt expect them to win that deal...I did however expect them not to lose it so badly.

When I first heard about that deal leaking and it was Larsson for Hall I kept thinking that there had to be more to this deal. I kept waiting to hear about draft picks or prospects being included. More assets coming back...that would have at least made the deal easier to accept and move on from.

The difficulty in this deal for me (and maybe for a lot of other people) is that this deal follows the exact formula that kept this team as a bottom feeder for the better part of a decade.
They traded a valuable player (the teams most valuable player not named McDavid) for a player that needs to develop parts of his game. Thats the issue as I see it.

So in any event I can accept that they lost the Hall trade and move on.

Now we look at where this deal takes them. They get a RH dman....they get a change in culture. These are necessary if this team is going to evolve IMO. That still doesnt make the Hall deal a good deal....it just means that they have started to reconfigure the team in a way that they think will be successful.

We dont know that this gamble will pay off....as an Oiler fan I hope it does.
However...if it doesnt then the team is screwed because they gambled by trading their most valuable asset and lost.

I truly have to give Chiarelli credit because it takes massive onions to take this gamble and make this trade. At the same time though it is a major risk and may not turn out the way he had hoped.

This for me is going to make this season so intriguing because its so very important that this team is in contention for a playoff spot.
We get to see if Chia is a good gambler.

 

[MettleMcOiler]

I honestly believe...we won the trade. The very idea that we can trade Hall to get someone of Larssons caliber and still have a team that consists of McDavid, Lucic, RNH, Eberle, Draisaitl, Puljujarvi, Klefbom, Talbot annnnd adding Larsson to fill our biggest hole. Plus the fact it lights a fire in the locker room knowing that you are suceptable to be traded if you don't perform, the consequence of accountability that we've been crying for over a decade. I would make the trade again. This trade was the catalyst for change of a stagnant core. This trade looks better everyday. If we make the playoffs next year, IF, this trade is a automatic win in my books.

 

[tempest2i]

I was golfing this morning with a couple of Flames fans. Before I mentioned I was an Oilers fan, they were lamenting about how the Oilers moved on from Hall AND addressed their blueline at the same time.

 

[Dorian2]

I was golfing this morning with a couple of Flames fans. Before I mentioned I was an Oilers fan, they were lamenting about how the Oilers moved on from Hall AND addressed their blueline at the same time.

Be afraid Flamers...be very afraid!

 

[oobga]

There's ALOT out there. doesn't require much of a mind reader to listen to McLellan through season to realize that major heart and soul changes and leadership changes was going to happen and fast.

Thinking that the team and the leadership core wasn't going to change ... given the comments through the season borders on complete lunacy.

I think this may be the article?

http://edmontonjournal.com/sports/h...odd-mclellan-not-seeing-locker-room-ledership

then there's..

what I think is crazy is that some feel that the core did not need to change to change the leadership of this team.

While player for player it's hard to argue that the oilers won, however when considering the team, and where it has to go .. and what had to change, it's hard to suggest that they lost as bad as some are making it out to be.

Also...My own personal thoughts on some of the posts in here. IMO unless you're potting 30+ goals regularly, show leadership and compete consistently .. you're not a franchise winger.

I am (and probably will be forever because we'll never know) curious what McLellan's role was in trading Hall. We have Chia and McLellan locked up for a long time, and we're not getting rid of either any time soon. If McLellan felt Hall was a franchise quality guy and a great leader, does Chia still move him? I didn't see any disappointment from McLellan after the deal was done, he actually made an effort to quiet anyone that felt giving up Hall was going to be a larger negative than the positive of getting Larsson.

 

[tempest2i]

I am (and probably will be forever because we'll never know) curious what McLellan's role was in trading Hall. We have Chia and McLellan locked up for a long time, and we're not getting rid of either any time soon. If McLellan felt Hall was a franchise quality guy and a great leader, does Chia still move him? I didn't see any disappointment from McLellan after the deal was done, he actually made an effort to quiet anyone that felt giving up Hall was going to be a larger negative than the positive of getting Larsson.

No chance Chia trades Hall if McLellan tells him he is irreplaceable.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Thats a little arrogant...no? You are suggesting that there is no valid reason to discuss the nuts and bolts of this deal?

What possible reason could you have for suggesting such a thing. Its it because its so obvious the Oilers lost this deal that you just dont want to hear it anymore?

Why not just accept the fact that they did lose this deal and go from there?
Then you can then include the Lucic signing and the dumb luck of getting Puljujarvi and how they will help mitigate the loss of Hall.

I have yet to hear one Oiler fan saying we won this trade
EDIT: haha, I guess MettleOiler is one

 

[Mc5RingsAndABeer]

Great post by Fourier.

Despite the fact we lost the trade many Devils fan were upset. Larson is far better than being given credit for and was not being shopped. We picked up a great young top 4 right shooting defenseman on one of the best deals in the league.

We offest losing Halls offense mostly with Lucic. Plus Lucic is bigger meaner and better defensively as well.

We do not come anywhere near doing this. You're severely underrating Hall and/or overrating Lucic if you think this is true.

Larsson is quite underrated around the NHL and could end up making this deal worth it, but Lucic is not a worthy Hall replacement. We gave up a lot to obtain Larsson.

 

[MettleMcOiler]

I have yet to hear one Oiler fan saying we won this trade
EDIT: haha, I guess MettleOiler is one

haha lol

 

[McPuritania]

I was golfing this morning with a couple of Flames fans. Before I mentioned I was an Oilers fan, they were lamenting about how the Oilers moved on from Hall AND addressed their blueline at the same time.

And then when you revealed that you are an Oiler fan they laughed at you for trading a franchise winger for another Griffin Reinhart.

I know what's what.

 

[Vikingstad]

To anyone saying we downgraded on offense, its actually the opposite.

Yes Hall has a much better offensive impact than Lucic, hes a driver of the play and has been a PPG player in the past, but Lucic is capable of putting up 50-60 points on a consistent basis, has been almost completely healthy and creates space for his teammates using size which will also decrease the offensive gap between the two.

The biggest difference is Larsson being able to give a breakout pass to the forwards. Having a clean exit out of the defensive zone is going to do wonders for the forwards. Even if Larsson only puts up ~30 points the effect of being able to get the puck out of our zone and up to the forwards is actually going to be huge, its been one of if not the biggest flaws of the team for years.

Yeah Hall > Larsson on a straight up value point, but at the end of the day if we are a much better team for it, is it really a loss?

 

[Up the Irons]

we're going around in circles here. Whether you agree or not, status quo was not option. the sooner one accepts that the trade was necessary, and that the over-payment was years in the making, the better off everyone will be.

Just blame Mact and Lowe!! I did. It actually makes you feel good. Especially, since its not incorrect. they made the situation the caused this.

 

[tempest2i]

And then when you revealed that you are an Oiler fan they laughed at you for trading a franchise winger for another Griffin Reinhart.

I know what's what.

Then I mentioned I was an Oiler and they laughed about how the Oil signed Lucic for seven years.

Griffin Reinhart didn't come up.

 

[KCC]

We do not come anywhere near doing this. You're severely underrating Hall and/or overrating Lucic if you think this is true.

Larsson is quite underrated around the NHL and could end up making this deal worth it, but Lucic is not a worthy Hall replacement. We gave up a lot to obtain Larsson.

Yeah, I mean it takes the sting away a little bit in getting Lucic. But first of all he isn't as good as Hall and second it's the fact that Chia traded Hall straight up for a player who will probably never be near as good as him.

And if what he said was true about it being completely separate from trying to sign Lucic, we could have just as easily lost Hall and not even gotten Lucic to replace him leaving a huge hole at LW. Boy would that have been a complete bombshell had he not signed. Chia really got lucky in that regard I think.

 

[tempest2i]

Yeah, I mean it takes the sting away a little bit in getting Lucic. But first of all he isn't as good as Hall and second it's the fact that Chia traded Hall straight up for a player who will probably never be near as good as him.

And if what he said was true about it being completely separate from trying to sign Lucic, we could have just as easily lost Hall and not even gotten Lucic to replace him leaving a huge hole at LW. Boy would that have been a complete bombshell had he not signed. Chia really got lucky in that regard I think.

It's almost like the player is a respectable person, dare I say a man of his word. The type of person who the GM already has a professional relationship with and trusts enough to lead his team into battle.

 

[Dorian2]

I have yet to hear one Oiler fan saying we won this trade
EDIT: haha, I guess MettleOiler is one

You may find that I said it if you look between the lines a little.

 

[oobga]

To anyone saying we downgraded on offense, its actually the opposite.

Yes Hall has a much better offensive impact than Lucic, hes a driver of the play and has been a PPG player in the past, but Lucic is capable of putting up 50-60 points on a consistent basis, has been almost completely healthy and creates space for his teammates using size which will also decrease the offensive gap between the two.

The biggest difference is Larsson being able to give a breakout pass to the forwards. Having a clean exit out of the defensive zone is going to do wonders for the forwards. Even if Larsson only puts up ~30 points the effect of being able to get the puck out of our zone and up to the forwards is actually going to be huge, its been one of if not the biggest flaws of the team for years.

Yeah Hall > Larsson on a straight up value point, but at the end of the day if we are a much better team for it, is it really a loss?

It's an abstract concept, but there is a point where having bad D is going to bottleneck what your forwards can accomplish. IMO, we have been there for some time now. Some forwards are able to overcome having a terrible D group, like Hall was able to, but most players can't.

Just for argument sake, imagine giving ratings to a group of forwards:

Hall (90) - Nuge (75) - Ebs (75)
Pouliot (70) - McDavid (95) - Yak (65)
Maroon (60) - Drai (75) - Poolparty (60)

Hall and McDavid are going to be 90 and 95 no matter who the D is, they are just able to, either by pure athletic ability or god given talent, overcome other players sucking and create opportunities no matter what the situation is. But, everyone else is not able to be as good as they can, because they are burning their energy in their own zone wasting time with terrible D that can't break up cycles, especially Nuge who spend huge amounts of time against good players trying to help our D out.

Now, imagine thanks to having a proper D group capable of playing well against good players and able to break up cycles and quickly move the pucks to forwards, we get a boost to our forwards ratings.

Lucic (80) - Nuge (80) - Ebs (80)
Pouliot (75) - McDavid (95) - Yak (70)
Maroon (65) - Drai (80) - Poolparty (65)

For sure, you've downgraded in Hall's spot, but due to creating a more complete team, your team has overall become better. Having a 1st pairing D that can match up against good players lets a 2nd pairing of Sekera/Davidson (or whatever it will be) match up appropriately against 2nd/3rd best comp, and the whole team is better off.

It's nice to have players that can overcome the rest of the team sucking, especially if the rest of the team sucks But, even losing 1 of those guys, we still have a lot of skill in our forward group. With a capable NHL quality defense, they should overall be able to replace Hall's offense with the added bonus of actually being able to shut good players down when it's needed to win some damn games for once.

 

[guymez]

I think that this article from ON sums things up in terms of my concerns especially on the PP....

http://oilersnation.com/2016/7/17/is-this-it

5v4 Primary Points 2015-2016

Oscar Klefbom: 55:06, 0G-0A1-0PP, 0.00 PrimaryP/60

Adam Larsson: 11:28, 0G-0A1-0PP, 0.00 PrimaryP/60

Andrej Sekera: 184:09, 2G-7A1-9PP, 2.93 PrimaryP/60

Mark Fayne: 2:14, 0G-0A1-0PP, 0.00 PrimaryP/60

Darnell Nurse: 13:59, 0G-0A1-0PP, 0.00 PrimaryP/60

Brandon Davidson: 22:12, 2G-0A1-2PP, 5.41 PrimaryP/60

Jordan Oesterle: 29:33, 0G-0A1-0PP, 0.00 PrimaryP/60

If this club goes into the 2016-2017 season with this blueline, it’s very difficult not to predict another year with one of the poorest offensive defenses in the NHL. Even with a healthy Klefbom it’s going to be difficult to leave the bottom 3rd of the league in that regard as things stand right now. Who is moving the puck up the ice and contributing to the attack?

Frankly, they need someone very adept at moving the puck and joining the play just to get to a league average level of contribution from the blueline. Can this club be satisfied with what they have right now? I can’t see how they could be. The job is half done and the obvious solutions aren’t there anymore. We’re hanging on to the hope that something shakes loose in Edmonton’s favor even when all signs point other directions. It’s a nervous time for Oiler fans who just want to see meaningful change to one of the most incomplete defenses in the NHL.

A player like Barrie really has to shake loose if the defence has any chance to be better than bottom tier this season.

 

[Dorian2]

we're going around in circles here. Whether you agree or not, status quo was not option. the sooner one accepts that the trade was necessary, and that the over-payment was years in the making, the better off everyone will be.

Just blame Mact and Lowe!! I did. It actually makes you feel good. Especially, since its not incorrect. they made the situation the caused this.

Yeah, all those kinda pissed a few off here.

​

 

[guymez]

I have yet to hear one Oiler fan saying we won this trade
EDIT: haha, I guess MettleOiler is one

They're out there.

 

[Paralyzer]

I still can't believe there's still people who don't like this trade. Well think of it this way, at least we got an NHL D-man who has #1 Top Pairing Potential and is currently a #2-3 rather than we trade Hall for picks/prospects or another forward which doesn't help our team out. Just give it a season. I guarantee you by the time January comes you'll all say "Hall who?". We are a better club because of this and we should significantly improve this year.