Taylor Hall For Adam Larsson V | 4,000+ Posts and Counting!

[Zaddy]

Haven't checked or posted in this thread since the week the trade happened and it's still going around in circles. Oh boy, it's going to be a long summer.

 

[harpoon]

I'm a bit slow... is the joke predicated on the fact that people in Vancouver are notoriously health conscious and would be unlikely to purchase hot dogs?

Your join date is old enough to have met the hotdog man.

 

[Fourier]

Stop moving the goal posts. The hypothetical deal we are discussing is Drai, Klef, 4th for Subban.

That makes our team better for next year and legitimately makes us a playoff contender.

Hall for Larsson? Sideways move AT BEST. Playoffs? Not bloody likely.

I actually agree that the Subban trade makes you better for next year. What I don't believe is that it makes you better long term. Nor do I think that adding Subban at the expense of depth gets you much further than a playoff contender. And because of Subban`s contract you are not going to be able to fill new or existing holes. You have also gutted the organizational depth so really the only way the team improves from what it would be is via McDavid and the hope that one of Davidson, Nurse or Reinhart takes a big step forward sooner than later.

In terms of player value in these deals here is another way to look at it. The Oilers could probably get Barrie for Draisaitl and you would effectively have

Larsson and Barrie for Hall and Draisaitl

vs

Subban for Draisiatl, Puljujarvi and Klefbom plus another asset.

If you then use Hall`s cap hit to add Lucic the comparison becomes

Subban vs Larsson and Barrie

Hall vs Lucic, Puljujarvi and Klefbom.

Of course they don`t have Barrie so this is not to say that Chia`s work is done. But they have still have Draisaitl whose value is similar.


Here is my opinion for what it is worth. If he simply plays as well as he did this year in NJ Larsson is better at keeping the puck out of his own net than Subban. How much is debatable, but I would say a fair bit. Subban is unquestionably better offensively. The gap in this part is much bigger than the gap defensively at this time. But the reality is that we don`t know what Larsson`s upside will be.

Larsson`s first pass is excellent. I just watched a replay of a game he played vs the Leaf`s last year to refresh my memory on this. I actually watched the parts where Larsson was on the ice three times. The Leaf`s were a crappy team but they were fairly dogged on the fore check all year and especially in this game. In fact, in this game they pretty much dominated the Devils with the exception of the Larsson-Greene pairing.

What was noticeable was that when that pairing was on the ice Larsson was the guy who consistently moved the puck out of the zone and the guy who did most of the heavy work along the boards. That pair was also an absolute work horse on the pk. But again Larsson seemed like much more of the lead dog than he was the year before when I actually saw him play a fair bit. It`s just one game but it does seem consistent with the comments here:

http://www.allaboutthejersey.com/20...rsey-awards-for-the-2015-16-new-jersey-devils

Best Defenseman: Adam Larsson

The Writers' Thoughts: "He's been far and away our best defensive defenseman." "I think Lars solidified himself as a true NHL defender this season while adding 17 points." "Andy Greene could get this award as well, but the Devils’ Corsi and Goals For percentages seem to be a little higher when he is out there, and I like Larsson’s WOWY numbers better when without Greene than vice versa." " Larsson ate up a lot of quality minutes this season and came out looking like the player we all hoped he would be when he was drafted." "While no one has a good CF% without some caveat, Larsson and Greene took as much of the tough competition and zone starts that John Hynes would give them and tried to survive. Larsson was better than Greene in general, although both were great. It also helped that none of the other defensemen looked anywhere near trustworthy when the going got tough."

Voting Commentary: As much as Greene was mentioned, only two voted for Greene. Larsson was nearly unanimous.

and

http://www.allaboutthejersey.com/2016/2/12/10974744/new-top-dog-adam-larsson

as well as from many Devil`s fans.

One other interesting note. On the pp NJ used only one defenseman on the first unit. On this night and for much of the year it was Schlemko who is really nothing special. They actually ran the pp through Palmieri who is a right shot. Palmieri drifted from the left point to the left half wall. Schlemko is a LHD which makes sense given where Palmieri sets up. Since I only saw the Devils play a few times this year I can`t confirm that this was their standard pattern over the whole year but judging by TOi it seems it was. Larsson is actually a very good passer and has a big point shot. For the Oilers he makes much more sense as a pp option because he is a RHD and the Oilers run their pp through the right half wall. Just by doing exactly what Schelmko did he should be able to match Schlemko`s 12 pp points playing with McDavid.

Larsson did have 17 ES points and 38 over the last two years. Those are actually decent numbers that put him around 50th for defensemen. This is even better if you consider how poor NJ`s ES offense was. For example it is basically the same rate as a guy like Hamonic while NYI scored almost 50% more goals at ES over that period. (Subban had 66 in the last two years so he is in a different league.) Schlemko for example had 7 ES points so there is no argument that they chose him over Larsson because of skill for the pp. His ES totals since Deboer left are roughly the same as guys like Shattenkirk and Vatanen so it is not like he is a total black hole offensively. Bottom line is 30-40 points is entirely realistic and he could produce more in some years.

 

[duul]

I guarantee this year we will see New Jersey drop and Edmonton climb in the standings.

Why do people keep saying Larsson for Hall was a bad trade? Phil Kessel returned a late 1st rounder. We got a at worst elite 2nd defenceman. At best, a steady #1 RHD.

It really seems to be that people who have not seen him play 5+ games are criticizing the trade while people who have watched him frequently seem to like the trade. I can understand looking at his statline and comparing it to Hall's and calling it a bad trade off that alone.

Larsson plays the most minutes for any player his age in the NHL. Logs gigantic defensive minutes and succeeds doing it. He was given literally the hardest matchups overall in the entire NHL. Most defensive zone starts out of anyone in the league while playing in a conference filled with the Crosby's, Malkin's, Ovechkins of the league.

If we up him to 25 minutes a game, adding in some PP time or evening out his offensive/defensive zone starts, he will be a beast. RHD is the most sought after position in the NHL and we got the best available player in that position with what Chiarelli was willing to trade.

People seriously think Hall would have returned Subban? Why? Hall plays the least important position in the NHL and brings nothing aside from risky points. I'll take Lucic at 55 points rather than Hall at 70 points because I am sure Lucic is going to make the rest of our team play bigger. He's going to intimidate and create space for McDavid. He's going to bring a playoff style of hockey to a team that only knows how to score off the rush. He will bring an elite net presence on the PP.

Larsson just filled our biggest hole by far on the team. Even if we didn't sign Lucic, I would argue our team is much improved. Balanced. Now with Lucic, it's not even close. This team is definitely playoff calibre if they can stay healthy.

 

[mjlee]

I just found this amusing, according to a swedish interview, OEL got a load of SMS from friends asking if he'd been traded to Edmonton for Hall when the trade went down. Apparently someone on twitter made a joke that they'd forgotten the Ekman. He thought he'd been traded too, before he went online and realised the mistake. Guess you guys would have preferred it not being a joke

 

[The Nuge]

I just found this amusing, according to a swedish interview, OEL got a load of SMS from friends asking if he'd been traded to Edmonton for Hall when the trade went down. Apparently someone on twitter made a joke that they'd forgotten the Ekman. He thought he'd been traded too, before he went online and realised the mistake. Guess you guys would have preferred it not being a joke

Well OEL is a top 5 dman in the league, so I would've been rather pleased. Still can't really complain though. Larsson helps us tremendously

 

[Mr Sakich]

after a few weeks to let it soak it, I have come to an understanding about the trade.

Chia is the oilers GM for one year. That year was an evaluation year as you do not want to make huge moves without understanding the subtle consequences like effect in the room. Here is the reality - Hall gave up with 27 games left to go (when McD returned from injury) he had 17 points in those games and we got embarrassed a few times.

Hall was supposed to be our leader and it became clear that McD was going to be that guy. Before last year, we all assumed Hall would be the next captain but this is Connor's team. Chia wasn't here for the Hall for Captain years, just last year.

Hall was left off team Canada and instead of doubling down, he mailed it in. I love the guy but his play last year was the reason he was traded.

btw, Lucic had 27 points in his last 27 games compared to Hall's 17. It is not a given that Hall is going to outscore him but 15 points this year.

 

[nabob]

So you hypothetically include FA signing of Demers based off a rumor but forget to include Lucic who actually signed here.

but it looks so much worse for the Oilers that way.

No to mention that Demers didnt sign here, he signed for a contending team in Florida. That is about as far away from Edmonton as you can get geographically and in the standings. Who is to say he wasnt using Edmonton to try and drive up his value like sooo many free agents have recently.

Everyone knows Montreal was hot and sweaty for PLD, that is the guy they wanted if they traded for the 4th pick. Every year you hear about draft trades falling apart because the guy the team wanted wasnt available anymore. Teams dont trade their best skaters like Subban for a pick to not get the guy they want. Once PLD was picked there was no chance we were getting Subban. There's no point in slagging Chia for not getting him when he wasnt available to us anymore, we didnt have a #1 RHD to trade like Webber which was what they now wanted and got from Nashville.

 

[rrc1967]

after a few weeks to let it soak it, I have come to an understanding about the trade.

Chia is the oilers GM for one year. That year was an evaluation year as you do not want to make huge moves without understanding the subtle consequences like effect in the room. Here is the reality - Hall gave up with 27 games left to go (when McD returned from injury) he had 17 points in those games and we got embarrassed a few times.

Hall was supposed to be our leader and it became clear that McD was going to be that guy. Before last year, we all assumed Hall would be the next captain but this is Connor's team. Chia wasn't here for the Hall for Captain years, just last year.

Hall was left off team Canada and instead of doubling down, he mailed it in. I love the guy but his play last year was the reason he was traded.

btw, Lucic had 27 points in his last 27 games compared to Hall's 17. It is not a given that Hall is going to outscore him but 15 points this year.

while I don't think management looked at it and said we have to get rid of Hall. IMO his performance post TDL when the team was given the reset and told they were going to be evaluated, and he mailed it in - probably made it alot more palatable for management to pull the trade.

 

[FunkyChicken]

So you hypothetically include FA signing of Demers based off a rumor but forget to include Lucic who actually signed here.

The same people who brought the Lucic signings were the ones who said Demers would sign.

Lucic does not preclude Hall. Pouliot could have been moved instead.

 

[Aerchon]

Great post by Fourier.

Despite the fact we lost the trade many Devils fan were upset. Larson is far better than being given credit for and was not being shopped. We picked up a great young top 4 right shooting defenseman on one of the best deals in the league.

We offest losing Halls offense mostly with Lucic. Plus Lucic is bigger meaner and better defensively as well.

 

[belair]

It was a bad trade when it happened and I think we will see it's a bad trade in hindsight. And what a lot of posters keep neglecting to realize is how Schneider makes dmen look better then they are. Everyone is now on this hyperbole on how Larsson is a elite stud defensively wait till he gets the reality of being on our defence. And another bad part of this trade is now Chia will never get good value on other trades other GM's see him as a target to underpay. Larsson is not even in the top 10 best defensive dman let alone how poor he is offensively. Still amazes me how some posters think this was a good trade.

And how does having a good goaltender help prevent high quality scoring chances from occurring consistently?

Sure you can. Larsson went from a team that was great defensively and sucked offensively to a team that sucked both defensively and offensively. The scoring ability of this forward group is wildly overrated. Outside of Eberle no true goal scorers, and aside from mcdavid a heck of a lot of secondary players that need to rely on others for them to produce points.

The Devils last year were significantly worse at creating offense than the Oilers, who also ran through dry spells. For half the season the Devils relied on the likes of Reid Boucher, Joe Blandisi and Sergei Kalinin to create offense. Lee Stempniak was their 4th best scorer! Any 'true goal scorers' in there?

 

[oobga]

while I don't think management looked at it and said we have to get rid of Hall. IMO his performance post TDL when the team was given the reset and told they were going to be evaluated, and he mailed it in - probably made it alot more palatable for management to pull the trade.

Someone posted the article where McLellan said he didn't see any leadership in the locker room around that time. Damning for everyone in the room, although he was probably excluding any very young guys from that statement because he wouldn't have expected 18, 19 and 20 year olds to take charge of the group.

 

[Fourier]

I will add one more comment to what I wrote above. In this year's WHC Larsson had 21 SOG and 4 points . These might not seem like much but the SOG totals were greater than any Canadian defenseman in the tournament and his points totals were in the upper tier of defensemen for the tournament. Of course it is a small sample size and many of the top offensive defensemen were not there but it does show that given the opportunity he is at least capable of playing a more offensively oriented game.

He has a huge task in front of him given that he is tied to Taylor Hall. I am cautiously optimistic that this move will pay off but it is still a risk.

 

[iCanada]

I will add one more comment to what I wrote above. In this year's WHC Larsson had 21 SOG and 4 points . These might not seem like much but the SOG totals were greater than any Canadian defenseman in the tournament and his points totals were in the upper tier of defensemen for the tournament. Of course it is a small sample size and many of the top offensive defensemen were not there but it does show that given the opportunity he is at least capable of playing a more offensively oriented game.

He has a huge task in front of him given that he is tied to Taylor Hall. I am cautiously optimistic that this move will pay off but it is still a risk.

Quit tying his name to Taylor Hall.

That isn't fair to him. Even if we lost the trade, it isn't Larsson's fault.

We can't run Larsson out of town for losing the trade. Forcing Larsson out and losing a Larsson deal makes it Hall for less than Larsson. We don't want that.

 

[FunkyChicken]

Quit tying his name to Taylor Hall.

That isn't fair to him. Even if we lost the trade, it isn't Larsson's fault.

We can't run Larsson out of town for losing the trade. Forcing Larsson out and losing a Larsson deal makes it Hall for less than Larsson. We don't want that.

Totally agree.
Regardless of what we think of the Hall trade, we should be cheering like heck for Larsson.

 

[cbzblaze]

Sure you can. Larsson went from a team that was great defensively and sucked offensively to a team that sucked both defensively and offensively. The scoring ability of this forward group is wildly overrated. Outside of Eberle no true goal scorers, and aside from mcdavid a heck of a lot of secondary players that need to rely on others for them to produce points.

The point I was trying to make is you can't discount Larsson's defensive stats just because he played for Jersey, then at the same time highlight his poor offensive numbers which obviously are going to be effected by playing for Jersey.

Taylor Hall isn't a natural goal scorer. He's more of a playmaker and we have a lot of those. Lucic will score more goals than Hall ever has as an oiler. Puzzling how some still believe that we are a talentless team without Hall. We're still a skilled team, we just have a few more versatile players now to help balance things out.

You can argue the value of the return for Hall and that is fair, but to blindly dismiss the qualities that both Lucic and Larsson bring is severely selling them short.

 

[belair]

Quit tying his name to Taylor Hall.

That isn't fair to him. Even if we lost the trade, it isn't Larsson's fault.

We can't run Larsson out of town for losing the trade. Forcing Larsson out and losing a Larsson deal makes it Hall for less than Larsson. We don't want that.

Exactly.

80 points. That's Hall's optimistic yearly production. If you replace that through Lucic, Puljujarvi and improvements internally, then you've effectively off-set the loss. Comparing Larsson to Hall is an exercise in futility.

 

[nabob]

Comparing Larsson to Hall is an exercise in futility.

So is being an Oilers fan for the last decade

 

[BoldNewLettuce]

I do wish we nabbed John Quenneville though. Just to have that extra magic bean in your pocket.

 

[Fourier]

Quit tying his name to Taylor Hall.

That isn't fair to him. Even if we lost the trade, it isn't Larsson's fault.

We can't run Larsson out of town for losing the trade. Forcing Larsson out and losing a Larsson deal makes it Hall for less than Larsson. We don't want that.

He will be tied to Hall for years. That's just the reality of the situation.

 

[Dorian2]

Quit tying his name to Taylor Hall.

That isn't fair to him. Even if we lost the trade, it isn't Larsson's fault.

We can't run Larsson out of town for losing the trade. Forcing Larsson out and losing a Larsson deal makes it Hall for less than Larsson. We don't want that.

Not sure if you are saying that Fourier is doing that or is this just a general statement to the board? I'd hope it is the latter. I haven't been following too many posts closely enough to determine your position here.

 

[rrc1967]

Someone posted the article where McLellan said he didn't see any leadership in the locker room around that time. Damning for everyone in the room, although he was probably excluding any very young guys from that statement because he wouldn't have expected 18, 19 and 20 year olds to take charge of the group.

There's ALOT out there. doesn't require much of a mind reader to listen to McLellan through season to realize that major heart and soul changes and leadership changes was going to happen and fast.

Thinking that the team and the leadership core wasn't going to change ... given the comments through the season borders on complete lunacy.

I think this may be the article?

http://edmontonjournal.com/sports/h...odd-mclellan-not-seeing-locker-room-ledership

then there's..




what I think is crazy is that some feel that the core did not need to change to change the leadership of this team.

While player for player it's hard to argue that the oilers won, however when considering the team, and where it has to go .. and what had to change, it's hard to suggest that they lost as bad as some are making it out to be.

Also...My own personal thoughts on some of the posts in here. IMO unless you're potting 30+ goals regularly, show leadership and compete consistently .. you're not a franchise winger.

 

[JoeCool16]

He will be tied to Hall for years. That's just the reality of the situation.

Maybe not. One is a forward, one is a defenseman. Hopefully it'll be like Schneider-Horvat where Schneider is better and will probably have a better career in a vacuum, but both teams are satisfied because both got a really good young player in the end. I think our situation is similar here. I don't think many Canucks fans glare at Horvat every time he makes a mistake and thinks "man, if only Schneider was still here..." they've moved on.

With the wealth of exciting players on our team (especially McDavid!), people will move on from Hall pretty quickly IMO.

 

[Raab]

Maybe not. One is a forward, one is a defenseman. Hopefully it'll be like Schneider-Horvat where Schneider is better and will probably have a better career in a vacuum, but both teams are satisfied because both got a really good young player in the end. I think our situation is similar here. I don't think many Canucks fans glare at Horvat every time he makes a mistake and thinks "man, if only Schneider was still here..." they've moved on.

With the wealth of exciting players on our team (especially McDavid!), people will move on from Hall pretty quickly IMO.

New Jersey fans feel that the Schneider trade might be the biggest steal of a trade their franchise has ever made. Many don't even put the Hall for Larsson deal near the top or even on the list.