Taylor Hall For Adam Larsson V | 4,000+ Posts and Counting!
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Bryanbryoil
Pray For Ukraine
- Sep 13, 2004
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It was said that they wanted another add on top of Drai, #4 and Klef. That said let's just say that it was those 3 assets for the sake of discussion. Potential #1 center with size (Johansen fetched Seth Jones), Puljujarvi who many were shocked to see fall into our laps at #4 and a possible long term Hall replacement with the added benefit of being bigger and right handed and lastly Klefbom who when healthy has been by far our best defenseman.
This likely means no Lucic coming in as we'd then have no less than 4 $6 million AAV forwards in our top 6 and McDavid's contract coming up in 2 seasons time.
IMO people should be less obsessed with the 1 for 1 return on Hall and look at the big picture, we moved out a $6 million forward for at worst a #3 RHD that is younger and about $1.8 million in cap space. We then added Lucic because we moved out forward salary.
I like our chances at playoffs better the way that our offseason unfolded, our only real weakness is a lack of a top 4 RHD that plays an offensive brand of hockey.
Stainsy
Time to improve
I agree to a point IATL. Subban, may be a top D man. IMHO I don't think so. He takes a lot of risks, and commands a very high salary, for a very long time. That is why the Habs moved him. They couldn't get rid of him before the no trade clause kicked in. Bad contract. Now, Nashville doesn't have to honour the no trade clause, but, if he founders at all, good luck getting rid of that contract. Here in Edmonton, it has been many years since there was a good system in place, and many players that we have thought would help, foundered. I am not a big Subban fan, I know he likes to be physical, and I can appreciate that, but I do not think he is as good as the money he is paid. I know nothing of Larsson, don't watch Jersey, but, he came at the expense of one player, and we need a stay at home, RHD. Also, if what I have read is true, there is potential for a more offensive upside. However, this I know:
1 McDavid is the future, with Hall gone, you have your leader, no disputes.
2 I was tired of watching Hall get the puck, skate like a ******* into the corner,get hit, lose the puck. No problem with that with Lucic, if he plays like I saw in Boston.
3 McDavid is going to command big money, to stay here. The signing of Lucic kind of negates that, but, Hall, was going to command more.
4 We still need more help on D
5 I think we can all agree that Talbot is the guy in net. Lets hope he stays that way.
6 This team at least finally has a direction, and a goal.
Nothing is ever perfect. I was pissed off when I heard Hall was traded, and Larsson was all we got back. I can't say I am happy about it now, but, it is what it is. Can't be changed. What can't be changed, must be endured. Hopefully Larsson blossoms, and we look back to this summer as a turning point.
7 Chiarelli needs to make more moves. This team is not ready yet, for playoffs IMHO.
1 McDavid is the future, with Hall gone, you have your leader, no disputes.
2 I was tired of watching Hall get the puck, skate like a ******* into the corner,get hit, lose the puck. No problem with that with Lucic, if he plays like I saw in Boston.
3 McDavid is going to command big money, to stay here. The signing of Lucic kind of negates that, but, Hall, was going to command more.
4 We still need more help on D
5 I think we can all agree that Talbot is the guy in net. Lets hope he stays that way.
6 This team at least finally has a direction, and a goal.
Nothing is ever perfect. I was pissed off when I heard Hall was traded, and Larsson was all we got back. I can't say I am happy about it now, but, it is what it is. Can't be changed. What can't be changed, must be endured. Hopefully Larsson blossoms, and we look back to this summer as a turning point.
7 Chiarelli needs to make more moves. This team is not ready yet, for playoffs IMHO.
In regards to Larsson, those zone starts are shocking since I hadn't seen them prior. I would be shocked if he's not at least a 30 point player if McLellan plays him closer to 50/50.
And I still call Hall 80 point guy because he can still do that. He's 24 and he's playing in the East so you give that to him. Will he do it consistently? Probably not.
And I still call Hall 80 point guy because he can still do that. He's 24 and he's playing in the East so you give that to him. Will he do it consistently? Probably not.
I am the Liquor
ABK
- Oct 15, 2008
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Thanks for the reasoned response. I think we could add that Hall was likely checked out mentally. Only so much losing a competitive person can be expected to endure.
I am not against moving Hall, but the return wasn't acceptable. If you are dead set on making the deal for Larsson, which would be a plan b target at best, and you are dead set on moving Hall, which I believe to be the case here, then you don't care about a fair return.
And that is what this was. Management failtards decides Hall had to go, Lucic would take his spot and you get what you van for him without really trying to hard.
Oh and **** the fans. Never did give a stuff about them, no sense starting to worry about what they think now.
Stainsy
Time to improve
I see your points, and they are valid. The only thing I can say in repsonse, is, Chiarelli has a vision, and a goal for this team. He is the man in charge, and we have to watch, and see, if it works.
Nothing is ever perfect, Chiarelli has made mistakes before, and undoubtedly, will again. However, the fan base wanted someone that wasn't part of the 80's dynasty, and we have that now.
Chiarelli won with Lucic on his team, and obviously trusts him. Hopefully he knows something we don't. I have seen Lucic be a force, and I have seen him be really lazy. Usually he isn't a force until someone wakes him up. I hope here, he is an influence on the young guys, and leads by example. Hopefully, he can get this team to hit. I think if the Oilers would get more involved physically, they would get more involved mentally. The two go hand in hand, with confidence. That, is what this team needs most. Confidence.
Mr Positive
Cap Crunch Incoming
- Nov 20, 2013
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considering how Larsson was used in NJ, I would be shocked if he didn't double his production from last season. His 18 points is 5 points more than Greene got, and only 3 off the team's lead for D scoring.
He will get some PP time here, and will get a lot if we don't get that PPQB. He got virtually no PP time in NJ.
New Jersey's forward core was not known for scoring skills (worst in the league by far). Larsson will help to unlock a lot of our offensive players, and will get more points just from being in that mix and getting a lot of minutes. He might get a ton of 2nd assists.
I would say doubling his production is conservative.
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I might as well double down on my position - I'd be happy to take one of those standard forum bets (avatar, signature, whatever) that the oilers will finish above the Devils in the standings this next season.
BlowbyBlow
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- Jan 22, 2011
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The thing about MTL's asking price was that it was Hall/Draisaitl + Nurse/Klefbom+#4, + (according to some reports 2017 1st round pick)
Hall could have easily been lost (one of your best forwards) or Klefbom (one of your better D) if you lose Drasaitl. It looked like they weren't going for any downgrade on top forward and d-man.
I think the thing most fans have to realize is any d-man traded is traded for risk for the team acquiring him. Seth Jones/Hamilton/Reinhart/Gudbranson those are the type of d-man who get traded.
To get a fully developed d-man there either not available or your setting your team back in a heart beat. Even if hypothetically Edmonton had the "farm" to replace those guys MTL would still want roster players in that deal.
4000+ posts later and the " Hall trade didn't return enough" crowd has still yet to offer a single realistic trade scenario where more value would have been aquired despite Chairelli clearly stating that there was nothing better available after an extensive search of the market.
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Because of Price. Without Price and with a healthy Subban, they sunk like a stone last season so it's pretty obvious who was the driving force behind the Habs success.
Subban is an excellent offensive Dman and one of the most dynamic PP players in the league but there are serious question marks about his ability to defend top forwards, has a huge contract and these apparent character issues in which there's a lot of smoke so it's not like there wasn't risk with Subban.
He would have brought a lot of excitement to this team but would it have been the smartest move to gut the team to get him? I really don't think so. The rumored ask from Bergevin (Drai+4th+Klefbom/Nurse+significant piece) was beyond absurd, not worth it at all IMO. That would have been akin to the Herschel Walker trade in the late 80s from the Cowboys to the Vikings where the Vikings were going all in to win now and the Cowboys built one of the deepest young rosters in league history.
I prefer to have a team with great depth than a team with a couple of elite pieces and little depth. They have a potential top pairing of Klefbom-Larsson locked up at $8M for the next 5 seasons (although Klef REALLY needs to put together a few healthy seasons) and get to keep Drai, Puljujarvi, Nurse and I'm guessing the other piece was RNH. This is quite a collection of depth that the Oilers are building with several very cap friendly contracts mixed in there. and a roster balance of which they haven't had in a long time.
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Doesn't seem to have occured to a few posters here, but it occurs to me that Montreal overpriced the asking price for Subban because they wanted a #1 D in return, tit 4 tat. To add to the matter, either Subban didn't want to be there any longer or Montreal wanted him gone....I don't know the story, and I really do not care.
This isn't about trading 2 or 3 marbles for 1 that is considered better value. It's about team need IMO. Montreal needed a #1 D to replace the one they had.
Simple.
This isn't about trading 2 or 3 marbles for 1 that is considered better value. It's about team need IMO. Montreal needed a #1 D to replace the one they had.
Simple.
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BlowbyBlow
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- Jan 22, 2011
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I think the biggest decision in Hall's departure was simply being as not as valuable as he once was.
If Edmonton loses the lottery and gets Hanifin instead of Mcdavid there's no doubt Hall's an Oiler for life. I think at the beginning of last year you could have said Hall was anywhere between 2-4 most valuable player on the team (Mcdavid, Draisaitl, Klefbom, Hall); interchangeable At the end I think from a management perspective (even some degree team perspective) his value lowered.
Then you add Puljujarvi, Lucic his value is even more down the line.
I don't even think it was based on position he plays, character or anything besides still having value, and being more easily replaced.
As for the return I said in another post even if you had the best LW in the game Benn or best RW Patrick Kane to pry another teams bonafide #1 d-man it would be next to impossible.
People against the trade have to think long and hard about these factors:
a) Edmonton is trading from a position of weakness (might not have what other teams need, or value of player isn't as much as you think it is worth).
b) wait for the best deal to be available (may never come available)
c) sit on the player and don't make a lesser deal. I think there could have been a better deal, but it may have meant trading him to Anaheim and facing him for the next 15 years. (That's why I tell many people there's more things that go into it then just make the best deal).
d) sign lesser d-man (for the presumption they can fill a role) - I don't think a Demers or whoever helps you out. Campbell would have been excellent but like Shattenkirk he chose his destination.
e) some G.M.s are harder to make deals with NYI (hamonic) Boston (Hamilton)
I am the Liquor
ABK
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A dman who scored more points last year than any Oiler not named Hall isn't helpful?
But look out cause we got a guy who scored 18 instead of 51.
Plan the parade.
Somebody better tell the Preds they got took.
CantHaveTkachev
Cap Space > NHL players
the NHL is all about depth...gutting our depth for a 9 million dollar player isn't great asset management IMO
I never said that he wouldn't help. I said that he would bring a lot of excitement to the team and would have been a huge boon for the PP but he comes with question marks as well with his ability to defend and with his big personaliity which I personally like but that could be hit or miss in a locker room.
Regardless, I was on board with adding him when I saw the price was Drai+4th but when the ++ kept getting added, it just didn't seem worth it IMO. $9M is a gigantic caphit too. I prefer to have a team with lots of depth and Chia is doing a good job of building a much deeper, more balanced roster.
Subban would have been a sexy trade but I'm not sure if it would have been smart, not for the rumored price.
The nhl isn't all about anything. Every year there is a new flavor that is the right way to win. Although curiously enough, Pittsburgh got by with a stacked top 9 forward group, Kris letang and a tonne of garbage on the back end.
BlowbyBlow
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- Jan 22, 2011
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Pittsburgh (2015) - 98 points - lost first round
(2014) - 109 points - lost second round
(2013) - 72 points (shortened season) lost ECF
(2012) - 108 points - lost first round
(2011) - 106 points - lost first round
(2010) - 101 points - lost second round
I would prefer to follow Tampa's template than Pittsburgh; more success recently. Curiously enough Pittsburgh is in the big dance every 6 years. Not much of an average.
The thing about building a team is if Edmonton trades Hall/Draisaitl+Klefbom/Nurse+#4pick+ whatever else there in a even more worse situation.
Also Pittsburgh has never been in a situation where they needed a #1d-man or a #1 centerman, or forward. I think there management group might be the most inept in the history of the NHL you have arguably the two best centers in the game Malkin, Crosby, and a Norris caliber d-man and yet recent results showed they have been a failure.
FunkyChicken
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- Jul 24, 2003
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We've been around long enough to recognize that this organization is all about selling hope.
We hope Larsson can develop enough offense to cover the deficit in the Hall trade.
We hope Klefbolm can recover from his maladies and short sample size to be a top pairing defenseman.
We hope Davidson can maintain he pace from last year and hope that he or another young player develops into a top four defenseman.
We hope Reinhart can turn out to be what Larsson is now.
We hope Talbot can develop into a true number one even though he was out played at the beginning of the season by a goalie that returned a fifth round pick and the back up goalie this year is snot.
We hope RNH can rebound into a top two way center.
We hope Draisailt can cope without Hall to carry him.
We hope the bees chasing around Yakupov on the ice go away when paired with McDavid, RNH or Draisailt.
We hope Puljujarvi can fill a top 9 roll in their rookie year when history shows most fourth overall picks don't contribute.
We hope Kassian is more than a fast skating thug.
Hope is great, and it's likely that many of these come to fruition. Mostly likely for every one that turns out, one goes the other way. What's the contingency plan if they don't work out?
What if Larsson is what he is offensively?
What if Klefbolm doesn't recover well from his infection?
What if Draisailt,Nurse and Puljujarvi need to be sent to the minors?
What if Davidson was playing above his head?
What if Talbot is a 45 game starter?
To many what ifs on this team without a back-up plan.
The only certainties on this team are:
Sekera, veteran defenseman;
Eberle, goal scorer who is disinterested without the puck;
Lucic, big mean winger;
McDavid, star;
Letestu, checking center;
Hendricks, checking winger;
and the player formerly known as Hall, generates offense on his own.
With so many unknowns on the team, I just didn't feel like it was a good idea to trade a high end known commodity for another unknown in Larsson (with respect to his offense). Would have been nice to get another known commodity or at least another asset that could be turned into a known commodity. Like everyone on the boards, I hope Larsson covers the bet but also know that offense is the hardest thing to learn and generate in the NHL.
So how does trading three substantial components of the future for one $9m defenseman not qualify as selling hope? You can spin anything they do that way. There's always going to be an optimistic and pessimistic outlook, which is why teams trust their scouts to help guide them to the right decisions.
Up the Irons
Registered User
heh heh. yeah.... it goes like this:
Hall >> Larsson. end of thought. Hey, there's a Squirrel!!!
good points. I've given up, and, you know... Hall is a d-mn good player, and was very popular. Emotion being what it is.
It's gonna take a awhile. Many of us still shed 99 tears every Aug. 9th.
BlowbyBlow
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- Jan 22, 2011
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What's the point of discrediting something when I said in
That WOULD have been the best deal. I guarantee a western conference team could have made a comparable or better deal. The two deals on record were MTL and NJ so something says the deals out there weren't significantly better in the west.
I would have liked a Silfverberg (knowing they may have a hard time protecting in the expansion draft) + Lindholm for Hall trade
Shero said as much as he wasn't going to add on. In fact, the only two guys who enticed him were Mcdavid or Hall. As Reid Wilkens said if there was a RNH for Jones deal to be made it would have been made. If a Hamonic for Eberle + could have been made they would have done it.
Lots of the potentially better trades were more lateral and backwards when you review them. They only look good to fans of Taylor Hall because he wasn't traded. The deal for Hamonic was potentially Eberle, but then they wanted Klefbom.
CBJ balked at a RNH for Jones, went with a bigger center. Hamilton wasn't going to come here.
I like both the Larsson & Reinhart deals you have to build up depth, create competition, but more importantly don't set players up to fail by playing them out of position.
I am the Liquor
ABK
- Oct 15, 2008
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You are acquiring a proven commodity. You can say look, we just got a 50+pt dman.
As opposed to..
Look we just acquired a guy who has never broken 30pts but that was on a defensive team with little pp time, that will all change when he gets here, he will be on the first unit and I could see him being a 50pt guy eventually.
If you specifically look at what you're getting, yes, Subban's going to look significantly better in every aspect. But unfortunately there's a salary cap and unfortunately to win a championship, you need to ice an entire hockey team.
Both of these guys are 'proven commodities' in that they can play key minutes. They just have very different strengths.
And I don't think anyone's expecting Larsson to go out and put up 50 points. I do expect him to put up more than the 18 he put up last year and that's a pretty safe bet. But we needed a top defenseman to play effective minutes, not be a fourth forward.
Mr Positive
Cap Crunch Incoming
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Subban is definitely better than Larsson, but we really don't need Larsson to pile up a ton of points either. If all he does is what he did in NJ then that will help us win a lot more games.
It is reasonable to assume he'll get more points here though, but those are gravy.
