Taylor Hall For Adam Larsson V | 4,000+ Posts and Counting!

[Young Lions*]

First, it's laughable to suggest Subban is a top 5 D men in the NHL.

It's arguable. He's top 10 for sure.

Second, Just reducing Leon Draisatl and Oscar Klefbom to merely players who haven't done a "g-d thing" serves only to fit your narrative.

Except they haven't done a g-d thing. Klef is a walking Web MD article and Drai is a guy who scored at a torrid pace when joined at the hip with Hall and whose production vanished when Hall slowed down. If you want to argue their potential is what makes them so valuable going forward, fine, but we're not talking about proven commodities here.

Finally, the "pick" you so flippantly mentioned is a bonafide elite prospect

It's still not an NHL player, which is the point here.

 

[cbzblaze]

Of Lucic's 1179 5v5 minutes this seaosn, 621 of those were with Anze Kopitar. 533 with Carter.

But I guess I should have included Carter. He's far better than the centerman Hall has had for the vast majority of his career too.

In his final season in Boston Lucic spen 450 of his 1100 5v5 minutes with Krejci. The most of any Boston player. And from his breakout year until the end of his time in Boston he spent ~3800 minutes of ~5100 with Krejci. Just about twice as much as any other player.

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/showplayer.php?pid=578&withagainst=true&season=2010-15&sit=5v5

Check it out yourself.

So your saying that Lucic is productive when playing with really good centers? It's a good thing that we have a few of those here.

 

[nabob]

First, it's laughable to suggest Subban is a top 5 D men in the NHL.

Second, Just reducing Leon Draisatl and Oscar Klefbom to merely players who haven't done a "g-d thing" serves only to fit your narrative.

Finally, the "pick" you so flippantly mentioned is a bonafide elite prospect.

A blue chip prospect that has a very good chance of being as good or better than Hall I might add.

Like Fourier said Subban wouldn't have had a Markov here to support and babysit him.

but the whole Subban debate is moot because they wanted PLD at the draft, but people keep on carrying on about it because it fits their narrative I guess

 

[belair]

First, it's laughable to suggest Subban is a top 5 D men in the NHL.

Second, Just reducing Leon Draisatl and Oscar Klefbom to merely players who haven't done a "g-d thing" serves only to fit your narrative.

Finally, the "pick" you so flippantly mentioned is a bonafide elite prospect.

No kidding.

I'm all for supporting Hall and have no intention of throwing him under the bus, but his offense is replaceable people.

Some posters, you'd swear Hall was the only decent player we had not named McDavid. But somehow we expect a GM to giftwrap us a top 15 defenseman.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

It's arguable. He's top 10 for sure.



Except they haven't done a g-d thing. Klef is a walking Web MD article and Drai is a guy who scored at a torrid pace when joined at the hip with Hall and whose production vanished when Hall slowed down. If you want to argue their potential is what makes them so valuable going forward, fine, but we're not talking about proven commodities here.



It's still not an NHL player, which is the point here.

its funny how you rip Draisaitl....a 20 year old "rookie" for vanishing yet you have no problem trying to gut our team in order to keep Hall...a supposed "leader" who vanished the second McDavid came from injury

 

[Young Lions*]

A blue chip prospect that has a very good chance of being as good or better than Hall I might add.

That remains to be seen.

Like Fourier said Subban wouldn't have had a Markov here to support and babysit him.

Fourier neglected to mention how Markov's numbers crater without PK which suggests either that PK is carrying Markov more than the other way around or the other D options on the Habs are total boat anchors.

but the whole Subban debate is moot because they wanted PLD at the draft, but people keep on carrying on about it because it fits their narrative I guess

So you think they would have turned down a blue chip prospect that you say has a very good chance of being as good or better than Hall? Why?

 

[Young Lions*]

its funny how you rip Draisaitl....a 20 year old "rookie" for vanishing

I'm not ripping Drai, I'm simply stating a fact.

yet you have no problem trying to gut our team in order to keep Hall...a supposed "leader" who vanished the second McDavid came from injury

The point wasn't to keep Hall; it was to add a better D than Larsson.

 

[CupofOil]

Why Kessel as your comparable? That trade was a cap dump by a rebuilding team. Why not Rick Nash?

Like nabob said, Nash had a NMC which severely limited their trade options and also had a very public trade request.

Kessel and Hall have had similar production throughout their careers, Kessel the better goal scorer and Hall the better playmaker, both had big defensive warts and tend to cheat for offense. Each had a down season leading up to the trade. Kessel was a little bit older, contract a little richer and his spats with the media I'm sure didn't sit too well with GMs but as far as player value is concerned, I'd say it's a pretty good comparable. The Leafs were idiots for treating Kessel like a cap dump, big screw up on their part.

 

[belair]

I'm not ripping Drai, I'm simply stating a fact.



The point wasn't to keep Hall; it was to add a better D than Larsson.

And too add that 'better' defenseman it comes at the cost of a very good established 22 year old defenseman, a high-end 6'4 20 year old center, a bluechip forward prospect and financial stability.

I'd rather have three or four very good players and the ability to acquire more than have one elite player and the ability to acquire none.

 

[CupofOil]

And too add that 'better' defenseman it comes at the cost of a very good established 22 year old defenseman, a high-end 6'4 20 year old center, a bluechip forward prospect and financial stability.

I'd rather have three or four very good players and the ability to acquire more than have one elite player and the ability to acquire none.

I don't agree with Young Lions take on the assets by just calling them prospects and picks but Klefbom is not an established Dman, can't be established if you can't stay healthy and Drai isn't 6'4 or high end yet.

With that said, I'd rather have Drai, Klefbom, Pujujarvi and whatever plus was to be added than a $9M Subban.

 

[cbzblaze]

If we were doing the trade before the draft, we'd have no way of knowing PJ would fall to us. At the point it's still just a pick. As for losing Klefblom, sure that would sting, but he's never healthy anyway and LHD are a lot easier to find that Norris calibre RHD.

Except you need elite pieces to win Cups in this league. That's why we tanked to begin with.

That Subban deal was horrible in so many ways it's not even funny. The problem with that deal is that the Habs wanted an established d back. Moving Klefbom leaves Sekera as our top LHD, a role which he probably fails at. Then the loss of Draisaitl kills our center depth. Big young skilled centers don't grow on trees. The 4th pick, regardless of who it is, has elite potential attached to it, and they still wanted an add on top of that. Plus we take on 5 million in cap. hell no!

If the deal was Hall, Nurse + 4th + Fayne I'd think about it.

Trading away 3 cost controlled pieces who all have potential to be elite for 1 expensive elite piece isn't how u win a cup.

 

[frag2]

Lucic scored 10 fewer points than Hall last season. And yes he may not have Hall's ability to skate into a corner but he does bring a different brand of hockey with him.

If we're speaking directly about offensive production, I'm going to take the Lucic/JP/Larsson group to out score Hall this season which softens his loss considerably.

And the pessimistic outlook for every single player we have is pathetic. It's not like Hall and McDavid were the only two guys who were ever going to score points for us. Nuge only had 34 points last season, Yak 23, Klefbom had 12. Do you honestly think all their numbers are going to stay down? And if yes, who gives a **** about the Hall trade, we were never going to be good anyways, right?

Is he wrong to say that Hall and McDavid are pretty much the offensive drivers though? I'd include Eberle as well but he even had dry spells with McDavid as his running mate.

You're being way too optimistic with Nuge. His game hasn't changed much and as much as it hurts to admit, even for myself, he's almost Gagner-like in production. Obviously Gagner is the worse player but Nuge isn't some offensive machine. Everyone loves to tout his Pouliot/Eberle line production but that was what, only a a month or so of play? He needs to prove that he's got some legit O game consistently.

Amusingly, I think of the 3 that you mentioned, Klefbom is probably the best offensively [relative for his position]. I was never high on Klefbom for offense early on but he's actually shown that he can produce in the limited amount of play...probably good for 30-40pts in a full year. It's just he's so damn injury prone. Penner hurt his back picking up pancakes; Klefbom will probably do that just by coughing.

 

[nabob]

That remains to be seen.



Fourier neglected to mention how Markov's numbers crater without PK which suggests either that PK is carrying Markov more than the other way around or the other D options on the Habs are total boat anchors.



So you think they would have turned down a blue chip prospect that you say has a very good chance of being as good or better than Hall? Why?

Teams never trade their top assets to get a high pick to NOT draft the player they covet.


The Habs D without Markov is terrible. There's a reason why PK was dealt for a top pairing RHD and a reason why they wanted Klefbom in the Drai,Klef, PLD + package.

 

[cbzblaze]

Is he wrong to say that Hall and McDavid are pretty much the offensive drivers though? I'd include Eberle as well but he even had dry spells with McDavid as his running mate.

You're being way too optimistic with Nuge. His game hasn't changed much and as much as it hurts to admit, even for myself, he's almost Gagner-like in production. Obviously Gagner is the worse player but Nuge isn't some offensive machine. Everyone loves to tout his Pouliot/Eberle line production but that was what, only a a month or so of play? He needs to prove that he's got some legit O game consistently.

Amusingly, I think of the 3 that you mentioned, Klefbom is probably the best offensively [relative for his position]. I was never high on Klefbom for offense early on but he's actually shown that he can produce in the limited amount of play...probably good for 30-40pts in a full year. It's just he's so damn injury prone. Penner hurt his back picking up pancakes; Klefbom will probably do that just by coughing.

Nuge came into the league, looked at Hall to his left and Eberle to his right. He realized that those 2 weren't gonna contribute much to the defensive side of the game so he concentrated too much on improving that aspect of his game. By doing that he's sacraficed a lot of his offense. He's always been the guy going down low, doing all the dirty work in the defensive end.

The absence of Hall should light a fire under some of the guys who have under achieved. The bigger lineup should also give Nuge more room to create plays. I think Nuge is due for a really good year soon.

 

[belair]

Is he wrong to say that Hall and McDavid are pretty much the offensive drivers though? I'd include Eberle as well but he even had dry spells with McDavid as his running mate.

You're being way too optimistic with Nuge. His game hasn't changed much and as much as it hurts to admit, even for myself, he's almost Gagner-like in production. Obviously Gagner is the worse player but Nuge isn't some offensive machine. Everyone loves to tout his Pouliot/Eberle line production but that was what, only a a month or so of play? He needs to prove that he's got some legit O game consistently.

Amusingly, I think of the 3 that you mentioned, Klefbom is probably the best offensively [relative for his position]. I was never high on Klefbom for offense early on but he's actually shown that he can produce in the limited amount of play...probably good for 30-40pts in a full year. It's just he's so damn injury prone. Penner hurt his back picking up pancakes; Klefbom will probably do that just by coughing.

Too optimistic with him? By saying I expect him to score more than 34 points next year?

I would assume all of the guys I've mentioned there surpass those totals next year. I'd consider those pessimistic expectations.

 

[frag2]

Nuge came into the league, looked at Hall to his left and Eberle to his right. He realized that those 2 weren't gonna contribute much to the defensive side of the game so he concentrated too much on improving that aspect of his game. By doing that he's sacraficed a lot of his offense. He's always been the guy going down low, doing all the dirty work in the defensive end.

The absence of Hall should light a fire under some of the guys who have under achieved. The bigger lineup should also give Nuge more room to create plays. I think Nuge is due for a really good year soon.

I think that's just an easy out the last few years. I've stated in I think Hall/Larsson v3 that while I don't know the exact advanced stats breakdown, Nuge isn't some defensive stalwart, at least visually, that everyone makes him out to be.

I always used the excuse in the past that his "improved" defense affected his offense to rationalize his lack of offense but year in year out, he's the same player.

That said, it should light a fire and if not, well, I wouldn't be sad to see him traded.

 

[frag2]

Too optimistic with him? By saying I expect him to score more than 34 points next year?

I would assume all of the guys I've mentioned there surpass those totals next year. I'd consider those pessimistic expectations.

I think you're misreading what I'm saying. Prorating Nuge's season, at 82 gp, that's only 56 pts.

With how much praise he's been given, you'd think he'd get 70pts and strong 2 way. I mean, so many make it sound like he's Datsyuk/Bergeron.

Nuge has never beat that 56pt "ceiling". I hope he does this coming season but I'm not exactly optimistic. Hence the Gagner comparison.

 

[Ol' Jase]

Except they haven't done a g-d thing. Klef is a walking Web MD article and Drai is a guy who scored at a torrid pace when joined at the hip with Hall and whose production vanished when Hall vanished as well. If you want to argue their potential is what makes them so valuable going forward, fine, but we're not talking about proven commodities here.

Let's at least keep the narrative consistent.

I know it's tough to admit, but Taylor Hall went to the All-Star game, and upon his return, absolutely fell off a cliff.

Right around the same time McDavid came back.

 

[nabob]

Let's at least keep the narrative consistent.

I know it's tough to admit, but Taylor Hall went to the All-Star game, and upon his return, absolutely fell off a cliff.

Right around the same time McDavid came back.

Also right about the same time the coach issues a gut check challenge to the entire team.

Hall had 17 points in his final 27 games. Lucic had 27 points in his final 27 games. I think we'll be ok.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

I don't agree with Young Lions take on the assets by just calling them prospects and picks but Klefbom is not an established Dman, can't be established if you can't stay healthy and Drai isn't 6'4 or high end yet.

With that said, I'd rather have Drai, Klefbom, Pujujarvi and whatever plus was to be added than a $9M Subban.

yup...cost controlled and excellent for our depth at all 3 positions

Subban would've been nice in the short-term, but we'd be in cap hell when McDavid's ELC finishes up...plus having Subban on the roster doesn't equate to anymore success than having Larsson o the roster

 

[Young Lions*]

And too add that 'better' defenseman it comes at the cost of a very good established 22 year old defenseman

Wait what? Klefbom has 107 GP in three seasons and looked good for maybe 60 of those.

a high-end 6'4 20 year old center, a bluechip forward prospect and financial stability.

The cap stuff is overstated especially since you'll be looking at a fat raise for Draisaitl soon enough. In the short term it's not an issue at all.

I'd rather have three or four very good players and the ability to acquire more than have one elite player and the ability to acquire none.

Weird how having Malkin, Crosby and Letang combining for $25 million didn't destroy the Penguins ability to add Kessel's salary.

 

[Young Lions*]

Teams never trade their top assets to get a high pick to NOT draft the player they covet.

There's no evidence the Habs wouldn't have taken a player that was ranked higher than PLD if they had teh chance.

The Habs D without Markov is terrible. There's a reason why PK was dealt for a top pairing RHD and a reason why they wanted Klefbom in the Drai,Klef, PLD + package.

Not sure what your point is here. Subban was really good with Markov and still really good without him. Markov was really good with Subban and kind of a tire fire without. How anyone can look at that and determine that Markov was zooming PK is beyond me.

 

[belair]

I think you're misreading what I'm saying. Prorating Nuge's season, at 82 gp, that's only 56 pts.

With how much praise he's been given, you'd think he'd get 70pts and strong 2 way. I mean, so many make it sound like he's Datsyuk/Bergeron.

Nuge has never beat that 56pt "ceiling". I hope he does this coming season but I'm not exactly optimistic. Hence the Gagner comparison.

I'm not even pumping him up either way. I've mentioned him as a method of replacing the offense of Hall's departure. RNH's abilities are another discussion altogether.

 

[Ol' Jase]

Wait what? Klefbom has 107 GP in three seasons and looked good for maybe 60 of those.


The cap stuff is overstated especially since you'll be looking at a fat raise for Draisaitl soon enough. In the short term it's not an issue at all.

Weird how having Malkin, Crosby and Letang combining for $25 million didn't destroy the Penguins ability to add Kessel's salary.

Wait, could you provide some evidence to back this up, or is this just conjecture to, again, support your narrative?

It's hilarious that you except the Habs to trade their "top 5" D man for players you basically consider totally unproven and completely expendable.

Thank god Chia didn't see it this way.

 

[Ol' Jase]

Also right about the same time the coach issues a gut check challenge to the entire team.

Hall had 17 points in his final 27 games. Lucic had 27 points in his final 27 games. I think we'll be ok.

I agree wholeheartedly.