Taylor Hall For Adam Larsson V | 4,000+ Posts and Counting!

[belair]

So you believe we should go the unproven route rather than have the guy in the lineup that could actually help the PP

Yes. The PP can help itself. We have more than enough offensive talent on this roster to score with an extra man. Coughing up another valuable part of the offense just so we can have a guy that shoots the puck hard would be a shining example of stupidity.

We signed Sekera long-term. He's our primary PP option on defense. Add Klefbom and Larsson as options and now there's one slot left for a Davidson or a Nurse, or maybe a fourth forward.

 

[cbzblaze]

Nice narrative...some of us just dont believe that Chia needed to make that deal at that time. he blinked.

As for the rest of your post...its a strawman in terms of my actual position on things.

The timing of the deal had to do with free agency. If chia didn't pull the trigger then and was still working on a deal today, do we sign Lucic? If we don't sign Lucic, then it's even harder to trade Hall because there's nobody to take his spot. If we do sign Lucic and somehow can't find a deal to move Hall, then we're burning cap space on needless parts.

Having Lucic replace Hall made the move easier to do and explains the timing of the deal.

 

[McTedi]

Yes. The PP can help itself. We have more than enough offensive talent on this roster to score with an extra man. Coughing up another valuable part of the offense just so we can have a guy that shoots the puck hard would be a shining example of stupidity.

We signed Sekera long-term. He's our primary PP option on defense. Add Klefbom and Larsson as options and now there's one slot left for a Davidson or a Nurse, or maybe a fourth forward.

It can, really? I'm not convinced that either Larsson or Klefbom can handle 1st PP duties, Sekera looks comfortable enough in the offensive end so no concerns there but having a trigger man who can score (or even hit the net) would help things immensely.

 

[Up the Irons]

25th among regular D in 14/15 in 5v5 points/60 on one of the worst offensive teams in the league ain't bad. Then the next year he got the most brutal zone starts any D has dealt with in 10+ years and still managed more ES points than anyone on his team or any D on the oilers that got to throw pucks to Hall, McDavid, Nuge, Ebs and Drai.

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that's the thing, Larsson is, at the worst, a very good #3. He's a safe bet to be a good #2, and has a chance to be a #1 dman, one that would be rated in the 15 - 30 ranged.

so, an all-star winger for a legit #2/potential #1. Is that really such a loss? Is the gap really all that wide? Would you trade Hall for Vlasic? In a heartbeat.

and that's exactly what we might have done. This is why I think those that are choked at 'the degree in which we lost this trade' are over-reacting. there's a very good chance it will turn out to be a good trade, and, some day, we might even see it as a win.

 

[McTedi]

The timing of the deal had to do with free agency. If chia didn't pull the trigger then and was still working on a deal today, do we sign Lucic? If we don't sign Lucic, then it's even harder to trade Hall because there's nobody to take his spot. If we do sign Lucic and somehow can't find a deal to move Hall, then we're burning cap space on needless parts.

Having Lucic replace Hall made the move easier to do and explains the timing of the deal.

From the rumours out there Lucic had an agreement to sign so why would finding a better deal for Hall hinder that. The optics from draft day 2 until July 1 sucked and I thought Chia rushed to move Hall.

 

[cbzblaze]

It can, really? I'm not convinced that either Larsson or Klefbom can handle 1st PP duties, Sekera looks comfortable enough in the offensive end so no concerns there but having a trigger man who can score (or even hit the net) would help things immensely.

Our pp works mainly off the right wall. This setup favors the shot from the left point, which ideally should be a right handed player which we haven't had till now. That's where Larsson will contribute.

From what Devils fans have said, Larsson's shot isnt gonna burn a hole in the net, but he's really effective at getting his shot through, which is really all we need him to do. With the recent addition of some bigger bodies, I picture us getting a lot more greasy goals from scrambles in front of the net. The key is to get the point shot to the net, something Sekera couldn't do for the life of him.

 

[guymez]

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that's the thing, Larsson is, at the worst, a very good #3. He's a safe bet to be a good #2, and has a chance to be a #1 dman, one that would be rated in the 15 - 30 ranged.

so, an all-star winger for a legit #2/potential #1. Is that really such a loss? Is the gap really all that wide? Would you trade Hall for Vlasic? In a heartbeat.

and that's exactly what we might have done. This is why I think those that are choked at 'the degree in which we lost this trade' are over-reacting. there's a very good chance it will turn out to be a good trade, and, some day, we might even see it as a win.

You are talking about a dman that can play 25+ minutes in all situations and produce at a .5 ppg clip or better.
Players like Subban, Weber, Doughty, Keith, Pietrangelo, Letang et al.

This is something I just dont see at all. Where is the evidence to suggest that Larsson has #1 potential?

 

[belair]

It can, really? I'm not convinced that either Larsson or Klefbom can handle 1st PP duties, Sekera looks comfortable enough in the offensive end so no concerns there but having a trigger man who can score (or even hit the net) would help things immensely.

And I'm not convinced they can't. And handling PP duties is pretty frigging low on the list of needs this team has. We have a McDavid and we have several forwards fully capable of providing the trigger you're looking for from our $6m+ one-dimensional 4th defenseman.

If a PPQB is really that high on the needs of Chiarelli, he probably would've signed Wisniewski already.

 

[McTedi]

Our pp works mainly off the right wall. This setup favors the shot from the left point, which ideally should be a right handed player which we haven't had till now. That's where Larsson will contribute.

From what Devils fans have said, Larsson's shot isnt gonna burn a hole in the net, but he's really effective at getting his shot through, which is really all we need him to do. With the recent addition of some bigger bodies, I picture us getting a lot more greasy goals from scrambles in front of the net. The key is to get the point shot to the net, something Sekera couldn't do for the life of him.

If this was true wouldn't he have some factual evidence (ie. points) to support this.

 

[guymez]

The timing of the deal had to do with free agency. If chia didn't pull the trigger then and was still working on a deal today, do we sign Lucic? If we don't sign Lucic, then it's even harder to trade Hall because there's nobody to take his spot. If we do sign Lucic and somehow can't find a deal to move Hall, then we're burning cap space on needless parts.

Having Lucic replace Hall made the move easier to do and explains the timing of the deal.

Lucic doesn't replace Hall...thats part of the issue. I understand what you suggesting from a salary perspective but we all knew that one of the big 3 were on their way out the door. If they sign Lucic that wouldn't have changed that reality.
I hear you when you suggest that it (salaries) complicated the situation somewhat and I agree.
I just dont think it had to force Chairellis hand.

 

[McTedi]

And I'm not convinced they can't. And handling PP duties is pretty frigging low on the list of needs this team has. We have a McDavid and we have several forwards fully capable of providing the trigger you're looking for from our $6m+ one-dimensional 4th defenseman.

If a PPQB is really that high on the needs of Chiarelli, he probably would've signed Wisniewski already.

That is incorrect, a big reason why the Oilers lose is because of weaknesses in special teams.

 

[oobga]

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that's the thing, Larsson is, at the worst, a very good #3. He's a safe bet to be a good #2, and has a chance to be a #1 dman, one that would be rated in the 15 - 30 ranged.

so, an all-star winger for a legit #2/potential #1. Is that really such a loss? Is the gap really all that wide? Would you trade Hall for Vlasic? In a heartbeat.

and that's exactly what we might have done. This is why I think those that are choked at 'the degree in which we lost this trade' are over-reacting. there's a very good chance it will turn out to be a good trade, and, some day, we might even see it as a win.

I think only winning games can make some people get over this trade. I think of when the Bruins traded Kessel, it's a very similar situation, sending off a 22 year old 36 goal scorer. And Kessel went on to put up more points for the Leafs than Hall might manage for the Devils.

Do you know any Bruins fans that are still mad about that trade? I'm not sure if they still exist. The team went on winning, and they didn't even really need what they got for Kessel to do it, Seguin played good for like 2 games or something in the playoffs and they grabbed onto that to make fun of leafs fans like the Kessel trade was an obvious win, but they probably still would have won their cup without Seguin.

Winning is a cure-all Fingers crossed the team can indeed start winning as a more balanced group and we can put the debate about this trade in the rear view at least to some degree.

 

[belair]

That is incorrect, a big reason why the Oilers lose is because of weaknesses in special teams.

The primary reason they lose is because they can't keep the puck out of their net.

They're 18th in PP, 18th in PK. I'd consider that middle of the pack.

 

[Replacement*]

The primary reason they lose is because they can't keep the puck out of their net.

They're 18th in PP, 18th in PK. I'd consider that middle of the pack.

This isn't really so clear.

The Oilers were 25th in league in GF 26th in league in GA.


We removed Hall from a club that had a lot of trouble scoring. This is sure to go well..

 

[harpoon]

So you believe we should go the unproven route rather than have the guy in the lineup that could actually help the PP

This has been the issue I keep bringing up as well.
Everyone knows that a deadly PP is like points in the bank.
Even if you can't manage it for 82 games, having nice little runs on the PP can add so many points that the Oilers have been squandering for years.
I just don't get it. You have a man advantage. The PP should be the easiest fix on the team.
I would have accepted trading Hall for a proven PP producer like Shattenkirk. I know what that guy is going to do. I'm not just hoping.
Not to mention that a PP on the roll gets everybody going. Suddenly guys have a bit more creativity even 5x5. Lines start gelling better. I mean its a total no-brainer.
I simply do not understand how the Oilers think going into another ****ing season with zip, zilch and nada from the blueline is acceptable.

 

[belair]

This isn't really so clear.

The Oilers were 25th in league in GF 26th in league in GA.


We removed Hall from a club that had a lot of trouble scoring. This is sure to go well..

And added Lucic, Puljujarvi and Larsson.

Also add a healthy McDavid, Klefbom, RNH and Yakupov.

 

[cbzblaze]

That is incorrect, a big reason why the Oilers lose is because of weaknesses in special teams.

Taylor Hall wasn't good on the power play and I don't think he ever killed penalties.
Not having to put Hall on the pp probably makes our pp better and Larsson is great on the pk so we should see an improvement in both areas.

 

[Mr Positive]

Taylor Hall wasn't good on the power play and I don't think he ever killed penalties.
Not having to put Hall on the pp probably makes our pp better and Larsson is great on the pk so we should see an improvement in both areas.

Lucic's net presence will help our PP a ton.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

This isn't really so clear.

The Oilers were 25th in league in GF 26th in league in GA.


We removed Hall from a club that had a lot of trouble scoring. This is sure to go well..

Hall was pretty poor defensively with tons on mental lapses in his game so our GA will go up along with having a more complete defense

 

[cbzblaze]

From the rumours out there Lucic had an agreement to sign so why would finding a better deal for Hall hinder that. The optics from draft day 2 until July 1 sucked and I thought Chia rushed to move Hall.

Fair enough, but I'm pretty sure that chia said he really wanted Larsson.
So what do you do if you signed Lucic to 6mill and then you can't move Hall for the player you want? Say jersey says, sorry, we changed our mind and we want you to add to Hall. Optics of trade negotiations change all the time. Then your sitting there with an already offense heavy team, to which you just added a 6 million dollar winger. Then teams know your even more desperate to move someone for a defenceman.

They were high on Larsson, they paid a steep price to get the guy they wanted. The qualities that Lucic brings just happen to be the same ones that this team has been sorely lacking.

 

[guymez]

Lucic's net presence will help our PP a ton.

I think there is some merit to this. A big body net presence from someone who can actually play will help.

That said there is still a huge question mark regarding a dman to run the PP.

 

[Up the Irons]

You are talking about a dman that can play 25+ minutes in all situations and produce at a .5 ppg clip or better.
Players like Subban, Weber, Doughty, Keith, Pietrangelo, Letang et al.

This is something I just dont see at all. Where is the evidence to suggest that Larsson has #1 potential?

not a true #1, no. (i think i specified in the 15 - 30 range). But it is not a stretch that he can be a good #2.

As for the above mentioned dmen, we were never getting any of that calibre for Hall. do you know why? because he is not, in any universe, near valuable enough to garner a Dman of that calibre.

that's why these dreams of getting more for Hall.. well, what were you going to get? a better #2 than Larsson? a more more proven #2, i suppose. Lindholm maybe, but that's our own division. Not smart.

there were 2 choices. this deal, or do nothing. and doing nothing, IMO, was the worse of the two options.

this perfect scenario, in which we get the quality Dman to satisfy the fans that feel you need to win every deal, and not improve a direct opponent, just wasn't there.

 

[oobga]

I think there is some merit to this. A big body net presence from someone who can actually play will help.

That said there is still a huge question mark regarding a dman to run the PP.

There are more ways to run a PP than to depend on a Dman. Krueger and Nelson both managed to have good PP's that weren't all about a D QB. Jersey last year had the 10th best PP with Schlemko being their top point getting D on the PP. They let forwards run the show and did fine.

We have the tools to have a top 10 PP IMO, just a matter of our PP coach being able to think outside the box and make proper use of them. A good game plan and doing the right things in practice are everything for special teams. I'm not sure we did either right last season. I hope Woodcroft has more to give than he showed last year.

All that said, I still wouldn't mind seeing Chia pick up a short term guy to be a 3rd pairing/PP specialist. Like Wisniewski. We have some cap space, doesn't hurt to have the extra option. If the guys we have end up showing they can be useful on the PP, so be it, no big loss if we have to drop Wisniewski down the depth chart, demote or trade him.

 

[LaGu]

Who was Larsson paired with that season? Thats an important element to consider here simply because it is an outlier.

As I said previously...we shall see if and when Larsson can contribute offensively with this team. There are elements to his game that simply dont measure up for me not the least of which is Larssons weak point shot. He is not a threat at all from the point...teams know this and wont respect his shot. It wont change the dynamic of how easy it is to defend this team on the PP.

That story is yet to be written but you might understand if I remain skeptical until Larsson actually proves that the unending hope around here is justified.

There are no guarantees about Larsson offense obviously but I am as sure as can be that he will score at the very least 30 pts if healthy next season.

I don't think it is an outlier really. I think it is at least as representative as this last season of what can be expected from a defenseman who is a great puck mover. Larsson himself said that the turning point in his career came last season and that was where he took a huge step forward. He also said that he was happy with this season in general but not production wise and that he would need to work on that for next year.

Regarding 14/15. What happened that season was that once DeBoer left, Larsson ice time was ramped up from around 16 mins/night on average (and being scratched every second game) to 23 mins/night and he was paired up with Greene (not as buried as in 15/16 but still with toughest competition and most DZ starts on NJD). Before that I remember him playing mostly with Gelinas, and sometimes Helgeson. This change happened more or less over night late December 2014. If you take a look at his stats from that turning point things look interesting. His total points pace becomes 36 pts, with 31 EV pts and 5 SH pts. Actually, not considering pace, he already led the league in SH points that season, but those are so few and far between for any player that I wouldn't consider them really. Anyhow, 31 EV pts in 14/15 would have been good for 10th place in EV scoring. That kind of EV strength production is similar to that of Weber, Pietro, Doughty, Brodie (at least over the last two seasons).

In the end yes, we will see if he manages to produce here. I think all signs point towards that he will lift his weight in terms of production (30+ would be acceptable to me), but then again he is on a new team, a new conference and he is still very young. I could also see a bit of a slump going into the season, but I hope not.

 

[LaGu]

If this was true wouldn't he have some factual evidence (ie. points) to support this.

You can have the best shot in the world but if you are not being set up or have a team that works for you get space to get it off you won't do very much with it.

As I said, he has a pretty decent shot and I think he will get the opportunity to work off the rust off it here in EDM.