Taylor Hall For Adam Larsson V | 4,000+ Posts and Counting!

[Young Lions*]

Wait, could you provide some evidence to back this up, or is this just conjecture to, again, support your narrative?

Which part, that he's only played a handful of games or that he started out slowly and has gotten better, because both of those things are fairly well documented. Quibble as much as you want there's no denying the only place Klefblom is established at this point is on the IR.

It's hilarious that you except the Habs to trade their "top 5" D man for players you basically consider totally unproven and completely expendable.

They are unproven. As for the expendable part, I never said that, that's your strawman. It's obviously a big price to pay, but given how rare true #1D are available, it was worth the gamble IMO.

Love the scare quotes BTW. If PK isn't a top 5 D in the league, does Larsson even crack the top 30?

 

[Bryanbryoil]

It's arguable. He's top 10 for sure.



Except they haven't done a g-d thing. Klef is a walking Web MD article and Drai is a guy who scored at a torrid pace when joined at the hip with Hall and whose production vanished when Hall slowed down. If you want to argue their potential is what makes them so valuable going forward, fine, but we're not talking about proven commodities here.



It's still not an NHL player, which is the point here.

He kept pace with him pretty well the whole season. If Hall was carrying him around there would've been a bigger disparity in points between them while they played together.

Hall is proven to be a 0.7-0.8PPG player the last 2 years. I keep hearing 4 and 6 year sample sizes mentioned, but where does he fit scoring wise over the last 2 seasons? Is it possible that his peak is now behind him? No one seems to want to consider that when discussing this trade.

No kidding.

I'm all for supporting Hall and have no intention of throwing him under the bus, but his offense is replaceable people.

Some posters, you'd swear Hall was the only decent player we had not named McDavid. But somehow we expect a GM to giftwrap us a top 15 defenseman.

It is quite funny really. Drai, RNH, Eberle, Puljujarvi are all junk that can't create any offense according to some.

Is he wrong to say that Hall and McDavid are pretty much the offensive drivers though? I'd include Eberle as well but he even had dry spells with McDavid as his running mate.

You're being way too optimistic with Nuge. His game hasn't changed much and as much as it hurts to admit, even for myself, he's almost Gagner-like in production. Obviously Gagner is the worse player but Nuge isn't some offensive machine. Everyone loves to tout his Pouliot/Eberle line production but that was what, only a a month or so of play? He needs to prove that he's got some legit O game consistently.

Amusingly, I think of the 3 that you mentioned, Klefbom is probably the best offensively [relative for his position]. I was never high on Klefbom for offense early on but he's actually shown that he can produce in the limited amount of play...probably good for 30-40pts in a full year. It's just he's so damn injury prone. Penner hurt his back picking up pancakes; Klefbom will probably do that just by coughing.

We had 1 offensive driver when we last made the SCF in Ales Hemsky. Guys like Lucic and Maroon will open up more space for our skilled players to do their things than Hall ever could unless it was on the rush. Having a linemate that you can read off of is a good thing for the remaining forwards as IMO RNH, Eberle and Drai all have better hockey IQ than Hall did. Not sure of Puljujarvi until I see him in action.

Wait, could you provide some evidence to back this up, or is this just conjecture to, again, support your narrative?

It's hilarious that you except the Habs to trade their "top 5" D man for players you basically consider totally unproven and completely expendable.

Thank god Chia didn't see it this way.

IMO Chia viewed at bare minimum Drai over Hall and possibly Drai and RNH over Hall. I'm good with that and it's how I would've had it as well.

 

[nabob]

There's no evidence the Habs wouldn't have taken a player that was ranked higher than PLD if they had teh chance.

Yes there is, because the trade wasnt made. What more evidence do you want? And also there is no evidence to suggest that the Habs had interest in Puljujarvi as an option at #4, but it had been confirmed that they had a huge amount of interest in PLD and coveted the big french center.

It is absolutely ridiculous to think that the Habs would have dealt Subban to not draft the guy they wanted at #4.

 

[belair]

Wait what? Klefbom has 107 GP in three seasons and looked good for maybe 60 of those.



The cap stuff is overstated especially since you'll be looking at a fat raise for Draisaitl soon enough. In the short term it's not an issue at all.

Overstated? The guy makes almost ten million dollars a year. That's one seventh of the salary cap for one guy. Our top pairing right now makes less than that.

Money for many is better than money for one.

Weird how having Malkin, Crosby and Letang combining for $25 million didn't destroy the Penguins ability to add Kessel's salary.

And how many of those guys did they gut their organizational depth for?

 

[Young Lions*]

He kept pace with him pretty well the whole season. If Hall was carrying him around there would've been a bigger disparity in points between them while they played together.

I didn't say Hall was carrying him, simply pointed out that they both vanished at the same time. Funny how Hall gets torn down for that despite having the track record he does while Drai gets a free pass.

Hall is proven to be a 0.7-0.8PPG player the last 2 years. I keep hearing 4 and 6 year sample sizes mentioned, but where does he fit scoring wise over the last 2 seasons? Is it possible that his peak is now behind him? No one seems to want to consider that when discussing this trade.

Because it's absurd to think that he's peaked at 24.

Yes there is, because the trade wasnt made. What more evidence do you want?

Actual evidence that it was the Habs that pulled out when PLD came off the board would be nice. All reports were that the Habs' ask was too rich for the Oilers.

And also there is no evidence to suggest that the Habs had interest in Puljujarvi as an option at #4, but it had been confirmed that they had a huge amount of interest in PLD and coveted the big french center.

Being interested in one player does not preclude interest in another.

It is absolutely ridiculous to think that the Habs would have dealt Subban to not draft the guy they wanted at #4.

It's absolutely ridiculous to suggest they would have passed up a package like the one rumoured because of the draft pick involved. Who would do that? Why?

 

[Young Lions*]

And how many of those guys did they gut their organizational depth for?

Yeah you're right I mean once you get past McDavid, Hall, Subban, Eberle, RNH, Pouliot, Nurse, Sekera, Talbot the Oilers would have absolutely nothing to build around.

 

[tempest2i]

It's absolutely ridiculous to suggest they would have passed up a package like the one rumoured because of the draft pick involved. Who would do that? Why?

The same type of team that would trade PK Subban for Shea Weber and then fire their analytics guy because he disagreed with the trade?

The same type of team that consistently bases their hires around being a francophone, rather than being the best person for the job?

The answer to why is simple: bad hockey teams make decisions based on factors other than "what gives us the best chance at winning hockey games?'

 

[belair]

Yeah you're right I mean once you get past McDavid, Hall, Subban, Eberle, RNH, Pouliot, Nurse, Sekera, Talbot the Oilers would have absolutely nothing to build around.

Well there's nearly $60 million in salary and one top pairing defenseman. Too bad we don't have any entry level contracts to fall back on to provide cheap depth for the rest of the roster.

It's like we're a cup team except we haven't played a playoff game yet.

 

[Mr Positive]

Actual evidence that it was the Habs that pulled out when PLD came off the board would be nice. All reports were that the Habs' ask was too rich for the Oilers.

All reports? So you demand evidence in the case of PLD but require none in the case of Chia turning down the ask on Subban? We're at a point where there is no evidence for any of this, and people are picking and choosing which outsider's speculation meets their narrative. And yes, there was speculation that Montreal ownership wanted PLD badly, and that it was a franchise move in the same way that trading Subban in the first place was a franchise move, and not a hockey trade.

As far as I'm concerned, Chiarelli proved he was willing to pay and overpay for defense when he traded Hall for Larsson. If there was a chance to overpay for Subban he would have taken it.

 

[nabob]

Actual evidence that it was the Habs that pulled out when PLD came off the board would be nice. All reports were that the Habs' ask was too rich for the Oilers.



Being interested in one player does not preclude interest in another.



It's absolutely ridiculous to suggest they would have passed up a package like the one rumoured because of the draft pick involved. Who would do that? Why?

The trade talk between Montreal and Edmonton for Subban stopped dead in its tracks after PLD was drafted 3rd overall. That is the best evidence you can ask for. GMs never give all the specifics of players and why trades fell through when the players are still on the team.

Never once having been linked to having interest in a player does do that though.

Teams often/always back out of a trade if they cannot acquire the player that they want. Its ridiculousto think that a GM would trade one his top assets if the player he wanted to acquire in the deal wasnt available. The draft pick in that trade holds just as much value as any of the other asset they would have been receiving and it would have filled a hole in their roster they were looking to fill. They didnt want a Finnish RW, they wanted the French-Canadian center

Maybe Chia should have just given Shero RNH for Larsson, who cares that Shero wanted a play driving winger in Hall not a play making center, after all as you claim teams dont make trades with team need in mind apparently.

 

[nabob]

Well there's nearly $60 million in salary and one top pairing defenseman. Too bad we don't have any entry level contracts to fall back on to provide cheap depth for the rest of the roster.

It's like we're a cup team except we haven't played a playoff game yet.

but it works great in video games where you top pairing and top line players plays 40 minutes every game.

 

[nabob]

Yeah you're right I mean once you get past McDavid, Hall, Subban, Eberle, RNH, Pouliot, Nurse, Sekera, Talbot the Oilers would have absolutely nothing to build around.

Thats true we would have a few forwards, one D pairing, no players on ELCs and no young prospects to provide depth. Maybe we could be like Detroit or Chicago and get guys to sign here cheap...because that works when its Edmonton and the team hasnt been in the playoffs for a decade.

 

[McShogun99]

The trade talk between Montreal and Edmonton for Subban stopped dead in its tracks after PLD was drafted 3rd overall. That is the best evidence you can ask for. GMs never give all the specifics of players and why trades fell through when the players are still on the team.

Never once having been linked to having interest in a player does do that though.

Teams often/always back out of a trade if they cannot acquire the player that they want. Its ridiculousto think that a GM would trade one his top assets if the player he wanted to acquire in the deal wasnt available. The draft pick in that trade holds just as much value as any of the other asset they would have been receiving and it would have filled a hole in their roster they were looking to fill. They didnt want a Finnish RW, they wanted the French-Canadian center

Maybe Chia should have just given Shero RNH for Larsson, who cares that Shero wanted a play driving winger in Hall not a play making center, after all as you claim teams dont make trades with team need in mind apparently.

Would you rather have Subban and Hall but lose Poolparty, Draisaitl, Larsson, Klefbom and Lucic OR just lose Hall and have Poolparty, Draisaitl, Larsson, Kkefbom and Lucic?

 

[bucks_oil]

And the hypothetical Subban trade we were discussing wouldn't have done that.



And how many elite D men in the league (talking top 15 here) weren't pegged as such by age 23? Keith? Anyone else?

Subban trade: Really? You are going to argue that trading Drai + Klefbom + Puljujarvi + ____ OR Hall + Nurse + Puljujarvi isn't gutting the team? Uh... okay

So your argument about Larsson seems to be that he can't be elite (top 15) given his limited offense to date. Ignoring for a second the fact that we could still win the trade even if he isn't Elite... let's look at how many of the top scoring Dmen were already putting up 0.5ppg by the time they turned 23. I took a sample of the top 30 scoring Dmen in 2016. The following hadn't put up 0.5ppg before their 23rd birthday:

Didn't do it till 24: Letang, Josi, Suter, Brodie, Markov, (and as others mentioned) Chara
Didn't do it until > 24: Giordano (age 27)

So that's 7 out of the 30, so >20% of them.

 

[cbzblaze]

IMO Chia viewed at bare minimum Drai over Hall and possibly Drai and RNH over Hall. I'm good with that and it's how I would've had it as well.

This. oilers value Draisaitl > Hall. RNH =/>Hall.

I still remember defending this logic to guys like chaotic back last year. One of hall, nuge or eberle had to go.

1)Moving RNH doesn't get us a significant return, while at the same time creates a hole at center which isn't easy to fill. McLennan loves his center depth.

2)Eberle doesn't make sense to move either. His value is so low. Plus he's one of few right handed players we have. He's easily our best goal scorer, good on the power play. He's our best Shootout guy as well which gets so undervalued as that directly reflects points in the standings.

3)Moving Hall returns a better player who can contribute right away. replacing a winger is so easy to do by either trade or FA, it's also the position of least importance as well. He doesn't contribute on either pp,pk or the shootout. Players will always have to adjust their game to fit with Taylor Hall. Hall will never adapt his game to fit with anyone else.

I would have been happy with Hamonic + Lee for Hall. I think Larsson has more upside than Hamonic and Lucic is >>> than Lee so this oilers fan is happy with the outcome.

 

[Young Lions*]

All reports? So you demand evidence in the case of PLD but require none in the case of Chia turning down the ask on Subban?

The trade talk between Montreal and Edmonton for Subban stopped dead in its tracks after PLD was drafted 3rd overall. That is the best evidence you can ask for. GMs never give all the specifics of players and why trades fell through when the players are still on the team.

Per Friedman:

The Oilers sure could’ve used Subban. We knew they were talking last week. Montreal initially asked for Leon Draisaitl, the No. 4 pick at Friday’s draft and more. That “more†included either Oscar Klefbom and Darnell Nurse, plus something else. I can’t nail down what that “something else†was, but it was not insignificant. It was a big price to pay, and Edmonton did not want to do that.
...
It’s clear Edmonton desperately sought right-handed defensive help. They passed on Subban. Kevin Shattenkirk wasn’t signing long-term in northern Alberta. They asked Carolina about Justin Faulk, but the Hurricanes weren’t doing that without Edmonton sweetening the pie.

If someone has a source saying the trade died when PLD went off the board is more than welcome to provide it.

Well there's nearly $60 million in salary and one top pairing defenseman. Too bad we don't have any entry level contracts to fall back on to provide cheap depth for the rest of the roster.

Your top six is set, you've got a elite #1D and a couple of serviceable top four options in there as well, a #1 goalie: basically all the pieces to become a playoff team in short order and you're fretting about depth pieces.

 

[MoneyGuy]

Which part, that he's only played a handful of games or that he started out slowly and has gotten better, because both of those things are fairly well documented. Quibble as much as you want there's no denying the only place Klefblom is established at this point is on the IR.

Sometimes you're paying for potential in the sense that you're projecting what a player will be and you're paying for that, especially with long-term contracts.

 

[nabob]

Per Friedman:



If someone has a source saying the trade died when PLD went off the board is more than welcome to provide it.



Your top six is set, you've got a elite #1D and a couple of serviceable top four options in there as well, a #1 goalie: basically all the pieces to become a playoff team in short order and you're fretting about depth pieces.

Thats Friedman's speculation. You're doing what he got mad at bloggers for doing. Taking his thoughts and speculation and quoting them as if they are gospel. Just stop. Your entire argument is one massive strawman. It's a fallacy and a waste of time to continually show how your narrative simply isn't true and doesn't work.

 

[Young Lions*]

Subban trade: Really? You are going to argue that trading Drai + Klefbom + Puljujarvi + ____ OR Hall + Nurse + Puljujarvi isn't gutting the team? Uh... okay

So your argument about Larsson seems to be that he can't be elite (top 15) given his limited offense to date. Ignoring for a second the fact that we could still win the trade even if he isn't Elite....

Hang on: it's not about winning the trade. It's about winning the Cup.

...let's look at how many of the top scoring Dmen were already putting up 0.5ppg by the time they turned 23. I took a sample of the top 30 scoring Dmen in 2016. The following hadn't put up 0.5ppg before their 23rd birthday:

Didn't do it till 24: Letang, Josi, Suter, Brodie, Markov, (and as others mentioned) Chara
Didn't do it until > 24: Giordano (age 27)

So that's 7 out of the 30, so >20% of them

Given Larsson will be turning 24 early in this season, you should be looking at the comparables' 23 year old seasons. Letang and Josi both turned 24 after hitting that mark.

 

[Panda Bear]

And if we look at the even strength production of those players listed, where does Larsson fall in with his 14/15 season?

 

[Young Lions*]

Thats Friedman's speculation.

So on the one hand we have a legit media guy with connections. And on the other we have you.

Hmm. Tough call.

It's interesting that you call that speculation when he's is pretty unequivocal about how events went down. The only speculation he makes in that 30 Thoughts piece is around why things went down the way they did.

You're doing what he got mad at bloggers for doing. Taking his thoughts and speculation and quoting them as if they are gospel.

When I should be taking your thoughts and speculation and quoting them as if they are gospel, right? Nah, I'll pass.

Just stop. Your entire argument is one massive strawman. It's a fallacy and a waste of time to continually show how your narrative simply isn't true and doesn't work.

Continually? My dude, you haven't even tried. You haven't provided a single source or citation to support your version of events.

Tell you what: I'll stop talking about this entirely when you provide a single reliable source stating Montreal pulled out of the trade talks when Columbus picked PLD. Go.

 

[Panda Bear]

By the way, there's this idea that Montreal may have been okay with taking Puljujarvi from us at #4 instead of PLD.

If that PLD being taken at #3 is what scuppered the deal, are we too quick to dismiss the idea that Chiarelli refused to deal Puljujarvi because he had him a tier above PLD?

 

[nabob]

Would you rather have Subban and Hall but lose Poolparty, Draisaitl, Larsson, Klefbom and Lucic OR just lose Hall and have Poolparty, Draisaitl, Larsson, Kkefbom and Lucic?

Are we talking real life NHL or EA sports NHL?

Because in real life I take the potential 1st line + top pairing over two individuals who haven't won anything at the NHL level.

In a video game I'd take Subban and Hall. Have Subban crush the guy coming in with the puck, then skate it up the ice and feed a pass over to Hall for the one timer, then repeat.

 

[Panda Bear]

Are we talking real life NHL or EA sports NHL?

Because in real life I take the potential 1st line + top pairing over two individuals who haven't won anything at the NHL level.

In a video game I'd take Subban and Hall. Have Subban crush the guy coming in with the puck, then skate it up the ice and feed a pass over to Hall for the one timer, then repeat.

Personally, I'd have Subban crush the guy coming in with the puck, then pass it to Hall. Skate up the ice with Hall because his ACCELERATION and SPEED are higher, go around the back of the net, and pass it back to Subban for the one-timer because his SLAPSHOT POWER and SLAPSHOT ACCURACY are better.

 

[oobga]

Are we talking real life NHL or EA sports NHL?

Because in real life I take the potential 1st line + top pairing over two individuals who haven't won anything at the NHL level.

In a video game I'd take Subban and Hall. Have Subban crush the guy coming in with the puck, then skate it up the ice and feed a pass over to Hall for the one timer, then repeat.

Endurance slider max, endurance recovery slider max. Hall and Subban play 50 mins/game every regular season and playoff game