Tavares signing

[-DeMo-]

Willy was a centre throughout his career, signed as a centre, played centre in the minors, and still plays centre with the Swedish team.

Even if you discount Kadri, did we need JT? No!

you fail to realize what the potential signing of Tavares meant for the team.

you all know how poor our defense was at the time. but we couldn't afford to move Matthews/Nylander/Marner because they made up our offense. that would have turned a strength into a weakness. also moving Kadri at the time would have created a big hole at center. so prior to signing Tavares we would have been offering the likes of Kapanen/Johnsson/Brown can't think of others at the time plus picks in order to acquire said top pairing Dmen. not likely to be enough to make said deal. but once you sign Tavares that completely changes the game. now Marner and Nylander and Kadri could be put on the table without really affecting our offense because for free we just added a PPG player for free other then Cap and Money. that added a tremendous amount of value to the team.

now Dubas went and screwed all that potential up by trying and using Kadri to improve the defense which in it self was fine but he just choose to get the wrong guy who ended up being terrible.

as for willy playing center he simply isn't good enough in his own end to do so in the NHL, lots of players grow up all threw the minors as a center and then are moved to the wing. in fact I would say thats the natural progression for a lot of wingers in the NHL.

you also pointed to Stamkos as being as good but Stamkos just finished back to back years of not being a PPG player 66 in 77 the year his contract was up and 72 in 82 I believe the year before vs Tavares coming off 84 in 82. so I would say no Tavares was the better player. he also technically signed June 29th so didn't officially hit the market even tho yes I know he was able to talk to other teams.

 

[Drytoast]

As my dad used to say: if I've told you once, I've told you a million times - don't exaggerate!

"Worth it" is a separate issue, but yes, it may well matter.

That extra $2.4 would bring Willy up to $9.3, which could be enough to get him to sign for one year, until JT's $11 is freed up.

Willy wants 11. And why shouldn't he want 11? We paid Marner 11, and he's doing better than Marner this year. We paid Tavares 11. He's destroying Tavares. And he's comparable to Matthew's offensive output so why shouldn't he want close to that?

See what happens when you sign some idiot 13.5? He's the bar. "I'm currently out scoring your 13.5 guy...I want my money."

He's more likely to be ok making 9.5 in a dressing room where the top guy only makes 10...but he will be DAMNED if he's asked to only make 9.5 in a dressing room with a guy making 13.5 whom he is currently out performing offensively.

Matthews at 13.5 but performing as a guy who should be paid 10...is a BIG. f***ING. PROBLEM. No exaggeration.

 

[sxvnert]

Sign willy to 8yr/88m and giveaway tavares to any team he chooses at 50% retained.

 

[Drytoast]

Sign willy to 8yr/88m and giveaway tavares to any team he chooses at 50% retained.

Tavares contract is up in a year and he's still a decent 2c/3c. He has value. He was just dumb to sign for 11

 

[-DeMo-]

Sign willy to 8yr/88m and giveaway tavares to any team he chooses at 50% retained.

why would you give away a PPG player when you have 34 million in cap space this summer?

 

[Strangle]

Jt contract has not hurt us but signing Mathews and Marner to more money has limited us to fringe supporting cast. The pandemic cause us the most grief as the cap stayed flat, otherwise we would have been fine and still had a better supporting cast

The plan was to win before those players big contracts came up. Then deal with that after winning a cup.

Unfortunately, we found out that the team didn’t take winning seriously. And that made the Tavares contract look pretty bad.

If the core performs in the playoffs like everyone knows they can, we aren’t having this conversation. But because the players wasted those years by choking away every opportunity they had to win, the team is stuck in this situation.

A lot of young superstars win cups early in their career, before their contracts become a hinderance.

The time to go for it by signing Tavares was the right time to do that, they still had Kadri at that point.

What happened after, wasting the ELC years, was what went wrong. And all of that happened on the ice and is the fault of the superstars drafted by the team.

 

[Strangle]

I completely disagree Center's are far more important to a team composition then wingers. I would gladly have my top two paid players as my #1 and #2 centers, it's the wingers that need to take the cut. great centers don't need great wingers to be top players. there impact on games far exceeed that of wingers.

the problem if you think we spent too much money on the forwards wasn't signing Tavares it was then not moving a Nylander or Marner for that quality Dmen when they were younger. why wouldn't you add a PPG center for free other then Money and Cap. your gaining so much value in terms of talent and trade capital. so no it wasn't signing Tavares that was the mistake it was not being willing to move other top talent to properly round out our lineup. again if you feel this team was to top heavy with the core 4 forwards.

This is exactly what should have happened when management saw that the team didn’t win a cup, and was never actually close, before the superstars needed new contracts.

You need to trade people young, make that tough decision, before they get NMC. And keep the quality ELC’s coming up through the lineup.

Not trading one of Marner or Nylander early on, when we knew the team was choking in the post season was the big mistake. Signing Tavares was a good move, we knew it wasn’t in 2023 where we hoped to win, we knew Tavares contract wouldn’t look great in 2024.

But we were supposed to win way before we got to this point. We didn’t. That’s on the players and coaching staff, imo

The team had the talent to do it, but the players didn’t perform

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

I think it's very possible to say. I don't think it's a coincidence that we have 3 players making 11. And a 4th asking for that to stay.

Very true....I ask people who say our guys aren't greedy this question: If Willy played for the LA Kings...would he be asking for 10M+ in negotiations? We are playing with an internal cap that is literally 20% more than other teams because of the way it was setup by Dubas and MLSE giving AM and MM whatever they asked for. It would be almost insulting for Willy to take less than Mitch when Mitch signed his deal 5yrs ago and is going to want close to $13 to keep pace with AM.

 

[Drytoast]

Very true....I ask people who say our guys aren't greedy this question: If Willy played for the LA Kings...would he be asking for 10M+ in negotiations? We are playing with an internal cap that is literally 20% more than other teams because of the way it was setup by Dubas and MLSE giving AM and MM whatever they asked for. It would be almost insulting for Willy to take less than Mitch when Mitch signed his deal 5yrs ago and is going to want close to $13 to keep pace with AM.

Dubas and now Treliving have f***ED our eternal cap. If Matthews isn't blowing everyone else out of the water performance wise...there is no damn logical reason as to why they wouldn't use him as a measuring stick for their future pay.

And Matthews is not head and shoulders better than everyone else on our team.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Exactly.
Dubas allocated $11M of cap space to fill a hole in the lineup that wasn't a hole.
Matthews-Nylander-Kadri. Or even Matthews-Kadri-Generic 3C would have worked.

At the time the Leafs blueline was atrocious, for one.
Fast forward to today and Treliving is going to continue the theme: We already have a #1 RW but re-signing Nylander means we'll continue to have two #1 RWs and both making $10M+ (assuming Willie gets $10M+, and I would be shocked if he signs for less).

MLSE clearly still hasn't learned that cap space is a hugely important commodity and to build a playoff contender you have to allocate that space the right way. Having two #1Cs and two #1 RWs is not even close to efficient cap space allocation, unless your organization is more concerned with star power, selling merchandise, etc. than Stanley Cups ... Which is probably why they stick with this formula.

The other issue with having 2 #1's at center and wing is that they rarely if ever play well at the same time. You either have JT's line going and AM is asleep or vice versa. The best is when both lines are asleep in the playoffs. This is a very flawed team in it's construction. To top it off...they are all the same player in the sense that they are all skill and no grit, which gets pasted in the playoffs. If anyone thinks this team, as currently configured, will go far in the playoffs...well I don't know what to tell you.

 

[Go4soda]

You're singling out the Tavares contract out of the 'big' four? C'mon man.

it’s crazy how JT gets treated by fans when the team is underperforming. yeah he makes 11m, but he earned it as a UFA. he have homegrown guys that got that kind of money right out of their rookie contracts and still underperform.

 

[Drytoast]

it’s crazy how JT gets treated by fans when the team is underperforming. yeah he makes 11m, but he earned it as a UFA. he have homegrown guys that got that kind of money right out of their rookie contracts and still underperform.

His contract started this mess.

But if you wanna talk about any of the big 4, their threads would all read close to the same. With the exception of Nylander. However, for Nylander to stay he wants to be overpaid.

 

[Strangle]

Dubas and now Treliving have f***ED our eternal cap. If Matthews isn't blowing everyone else out of the water performance wise...there is no damn logical reason as to why they wouldn't use him as a measuring stick for their future pay.

And Matthews is not head and shoulders better than everyone else on our team.

60 goals
2x rocket trophies
Hart trophy

He is head and shoulders better than everyone else on the team

 

[hotpaws]

it’s crazy how JT gets treated by fans when the team is underperforming. yeah he makes 11m, but he earned it as a UFA. he have homegrown guys that got that kind of money right out of their rookie contracts and still underperform.

Tavares is by far the least criticized of the top 4 forwards but even then you have fans like yourself upset that he's even mentioned .

Whatever JT earned by the time he was a UFA he earned on Long Island not here and it was our kids who brought us out of the toilet we were swirling in for over a decade so i'm guessing they figured why shouldn't they be overpaid just like the ufa Dubas brought in was .

 

[Drytoast]

60 goals
2x rocket trophies
Hart trophy

He is head and shoulders better than everyone else on the team

Is he?

I'm not seeing it bro.

Here's more sting to consider.

 

[arso40]

Tavares is by far the least criticized of the top 4 forwards but even then you have fans like yourself upset that he's even mentioned .

Whatever JT earned by the time he was a UFA he earned on Long Island not here and it was our kids who brought us out of the toilet we were swirling in for over a decade so i'm guessing they figured why should they not be overpaid just like the ufa Dubas brought was .

Couldn’t say it better myself

Is he?

View attachment 780332

I'm not seeing it bro.

Here's more sting to consider.

View attachment 780335

There’s more to the game then points but he obviously didn’t start good out the gate but he’s clearly our best player

 

[Go4soda]

Tavares is by far the least criticized of the top 4 forwards but even then you have fans like yourself upset that he's even mentioned .

Whatever JT earned by the time he was a UFA he earned on Long Island not here and it was our kids who brought us out of the toilet we were swirling in for over a decade so i'm guessing they figured why should they not be overpaid just like the ufa Dubas brought was .

i disagree, man. all i ever hear leaf fans say is that we need to get out of that tavares deal whenever matthews or marner or nylander don’t perform. and who says i don’t think tavares should even be mentioned?? everyone should be accountable.

 

[Drytoast]

Couldn’t say it better myself


There’s more to the game then points but he obviously didn’t start good out the gate but he’s clearly our best player

Is he? Is HE driving the play or is Nylander? I can't tell. It's not obvious. And because his performance is worth 13.5...what's that make the guy who's currently outscoring him and driving the plays?

I dunno. It's not 9.5 though in this dressing room.

And Hyman? You remember Hyman right? He's the poor sod we had to move on from because we can't afford him even though he was worth every bit of his 5M contract.

 

[Ciao]

Is he?

View attachment 780332

I'm not seeing it bro.

Here's more sting to consider.

View attachment 780335

How many Hart's and Rocket's did Hyman win?

AFAIK, Matthews is the only Leaf to win an award since Britt Selby's ROTY in 1967.

He is head and shoulders above Mats Sundin, let alone every other Leaf on this team or that he ever played with.

 

[hotpaws]

i disagree, man. all i ever hear leaf fans say is that we need to get out of that tavares deal whenever matthews or marner or nylander don’t perform. and who says i don’t think tavares should even be mentioned?? everyone should be accountable.

if that's all you hear then you've tuned out everything else

 

[Drytoast]

How many Hart's and Rocket's did Hyman win?

AFAIK, Matthews is the only Leaf to win an award since Britt Selby's ROTY in 1967.

He is head and shoulders above Mats Sundin, let alone every other Leaf on this team or that he ever played with.

Not seeing it based on his stats bro. He's skating within the pack...not ahead of the pack.

 

[Legion34]

People forget that 11 million would have been 2 c money if not for the shutdowns

He signed for 13% of the cap 6 years ago.

 

[WillyC]

it’s crazy how JT gets treated by fans when the team is underperforming. yeah he makes 11m, but he earned it as a UFA. he have homegrown guys that got that kind of money right out of their rookie contracts and still underperform.

It’s not “the” fans… it’s a small group of JT despisers, who fancy themselves cap guru armchair GMs who think if Tavares was only making $6 million… they’d win the cup with an extra $5 million… or if we never had JT, $11 million would bring a string of cups.

 

[Strangle]

Is he?

View attachment 780332

I'm not seeing it bro.

Here's more sting to consider.

View attachment 780335

You’re not seeing it? How hard have you looked?

Auston Matthews vs. Zach Hyman: Head-to-Head Stats Comparison | Stathead.com

Compare Players: Check out the head-to-head stats of Auston Matthews and Zach Hyman including their awards, honors, championships, playoff and regular season stats, and much more on Stathead.com

stathead.com

Auston Matthews vs. William Nylander: Head-to-Head Stats Comparison | Stathead.com

Compare Players: Check out the head-to-head stats of Auston Matthews and William Nylander including their awards, honors, championships, playoff and regular season stats, and much more on Stathead.com

stathead.com

 

[arso40]

Is he? Is HE driving the play or is Nylander? I can't tell. It's not obvious. And because his performance is worth 13.5...what's that make the guy who's currently outscoring him and driving the plays?

I dunno. It's not 9.5 though in this dressing room.

And Hyman? You remember Hyman right? He's the poor sod we had to move on from because we can't afford him even though he was worth every bit of his 5M contract.

Hyman would be nice never wanted him to go but I understand your view point and the sample size well review this when the seasons over