Tavares signing

[Arzak]

when's the last time a player as good individually as Tavares hit the open market and you think the best offer he got besides us was 10 million per?

In the pre-cap world era ?hypothetical ?

You cant have TOP ten salary on your second line. Especially when you don't need 2 C at 11M.

It messed our internal cap structure. It was stupid move that failed to address area of need - D and goalie. It was stupid because it allowed Matthews and Marner to stay kids, because the responsibility is on captain JT - I wish I could imagine him angry yelling at someone after lost playoff series.

Oh and it made $11M base contract unit in Toronto. JT% at the time of signing for the rest of them.

 

[Taylor Halls Teeth]

How did this thread get bumped?

 

[-DeMo-]

f*** your right.

8.5 mil and suddenly 2 years later his comparable gets 11 in Toronto? Ya. Shit doesn't inflate that fast in a cap age.

Anyways. If I've learned anything watching Toronto and Edmonton fail, while teams like Vegas win, it's that you don't NEED the best of the best. You don't NEED top 5 anything. You need top tier. You need top 10-15. And a full three lines and solid defense with a work ethic. Not 13.5 mil divas who look disinterested some nights.

Not 12.5 for McDavid and then hope your piss poor defense shitty third line and mid goalie can keep up.

This is not a fun team to watch.

you do realize that Edmonton spends more on the cap for there defense then Vegas right?
Vegas 24.3 million vs Edmonton 26.687 so not sure how McDavid's Salary contributes to a worse defense

 

[hotpaws]

when's the last time a player as good individually as Tavares hit the open market and you think the best offer he got besides us was 10 million per?

we're talking 2018 not 2013

JT signing for 11m per made him the highest paid player in the league until McDavid passed him a few days later which pushed him to the second highest cap hit that season so lets stop acting like sub 10m offers were peanuts .

I think the only teams that he spoke to who were 10m or more other than us were the Islanders and the Sharks but i don't believe the Sharks were anywhere near the 13m that was thrown out by one of the insiders and regurgitated by the rest .

the list of players making 10m or more that season were

McD 12.5m
JT 11m
Price 10.5m
Toews 10.5m
Kane 10.5m
Eichel 10m
Kopitar 10m

I gave you the list of teams he spoke to and the reasons which i believe are valid for what they would may have offered and you countered with it's Johnny f***ing Tavares . lol . a player who never hit 40 g or 90 pts and hasn't done shit in the playoffs

But i guess if you want to believe say Tampa who didn't go over 10m for Stamkos/Hedman/Kuch but was going to for a lesser player in Tavares then have at er .

 

[-DeMo-]

In the pre-cap world era ?hypothetical ?

You cant have TOP ten salary on your second line. Especially when you don't need 2 C at 11M.

It messed our internal cap structure. It was stupid move that failed to address area of need - D and goalie. It was stupid because it allowed Matthews and Marner to stay kids, because the responsibility is on captain JT - I wish I could imagine him angry yelling at someone after lost playoff series.

Oh and it made $11M base contract unit in Toronto. JT% at the time of signing for the rest of them.

I completely disagree Center's are far more important to a team composition then wingers. I would gladly have my top two paid players as my #1 and #2 centers, it's the wingers that need to take the cut. great centers don't need great wingers to be top players. there impact on games far exceeed that of wingers.

the problem if you think we spent too much money on the forwards wasn't signing Tavares it was then not moving a Nylander or Marner for that quality Dmen when they were younger. why wouldn't you add a PPG center for free other then Money and Cap. your gaining so much value in terms of talent and trade capital. so no it wasn't signing Tavares that was the mistake it was not being willing to move other top talent to properly round out our lineup. again if you feel this team was to top heavy with the core 4 forwards.

 

[-DeMo-]

we're talking 2018 not 2013

JT signing for 11m per made him the highest paid player in the league until McDavid passed him a few days later which pushed him to the second highest cap hit that season so lets stop acting like sub 10m offers were peanuts .

I think the only teams that he spoke to who were 10m or more other than us were the Islanders and the Sharks but i don't believe the Sharks were anywhere near the 13m that was thrown out by one of the insiders and regurgitated by the rest .

the list of players making 10m or more that season was

McD 12.5m
JT 11m
Price 10.5m
Toews 10.5m
Kane 10.5m
Eichel 10m
Kopitar 10m

I gave you the list of teams he spoke to and the reasons which i believe are valid for what they would may have offered and you countered with it's Johnny f***ing Tavares . lol . a player who never hit 40 g or 90 pts and hasn't done shit in the playoffs

But guess if you want to believe say Tampa who didn't go over 10m for Stamkos/Hedman/Kuch was going to for a lesser player in Tavares then have at er .

you gave me a list of teams of who he apparently spoke to and gave no factual based evidence to prove any of your opinions. I think it's pretty accurate that he was the best player in the previous 10+ years to hit the UFA market. and to think teams were not willing to match our offer seems to me to be false. especially when rumor's of 2 other teams have them offering more money. again you believe those rumors to be false since they wouldn't fit your narrative.

Stamkos 2 years prior got 8.5 which was seen as a discount for putting up 64 points in 77 games and 72 in 82 games the year before and 8.5 was seen as a discount. yet Tavares coming off of 84 in 82 with one doing so on a quality team and the other on a terrible team. again you can try and discount Tavares all you want. at that point no player had reached UFA status that had the quality of a player as JT, his contract was always going to be near the top paid in the league.

and the one factual evidence you tried to give about Benn/Seguin just re-signing in Dallas was not correct Seguin Signed in Sept 2018.

 

[Drytoast]

Though it's not as if Vegas is void of stars either, they've got a 10 mil guy, a 9.5 mil one, and an 8.8 million guy.

And unless the Leafs get to have an expansion draft, their model isn't exactly easily followed regardless

Boston Florida Tampa Bay...there are probably several others if I looked. Like what I wont see is more than 1 player making over 11 on one team

 

[hotpaws]

you gave me a list of teams of who he apparently spoke to and gave no factual based evidence to prove any of your opinions. I think it's pretty accurate that he was the best player in the previous 10+ years to hit the UFA market. and to think teams were not willing to match our offer seems to me to be false. especially when rumor's of 2 other teams have them offering more money. again you believe those rumors to be false since they wouldn't fit your narrative.

Stamkos 2 years prior got 8.5 which was seen as a discount for putting up 64 points in 77 games and 72 in 82 games the year before and 8.5 was seen as a discount. yet Tavares coming off of 84 in 82 with one doing so on a quality team and the other on a terrible team. again you can try and discount Tavares all you want. at that point no player had reached UFA status that had the quality of a player as JT, his contract was always going to be near the top paid in the league.

and the one factual evidence you tried to give about Benn/Seguin just re-signing in Dallas was not correct Seguin Signed in Sept 2018.

I gave the list of teams that were allowed to attend his dog and pony show and make a presentation to him , it was reported and confirmed , i didn't make up my this list . I'm going from memory so if i'm wrong on a team then you or anyone else can feel free to correct me .

I don't think i said Stamkos took a discount , i said Tampa didn't go over 10m for Kuch/Stamkos or Hedman so why would they go over that for a lesser player .

and whether Seguin signed before or slightly after Tavares it make no difference since him and Benn were the Stars top players at that time and Dallas gave neither over 10m

and you have stop posting like it was Sid who was a free agent instead a player the caliber of JT who is good amybe very good but no where near great

I do like how you mentioned how terrible the Islanders were , i wish the Leafs had there success after the savior left . conference finals 2 of the next 3 years and losing to Tampa by a goal in a game 7 to go to the cup final ain't to shabby for a terrible team

 

[TMLegend]

Dubas tried to replicate the Pittsburgh model, having two elite #1C's to carry the load for the team. The problem was Matthews and Tavares are no Crosby and Malkin with hindsight. It is odd Dubas went that route considering that's a really tough model to replicate. Those 16/17 Pens teams and 06 Hurricanes are the only teams in the cap era to win without a top tier defense group.

The Leafs probably would have been better off in hindsight not signing Tavares and dispersing the cap dollars more evenly throughout the lineup.

 

[Drytoast]

Dubas tried to replicate the Pittsburgh model, having two elite #1C's to carry the load for the team. The problem was Matthews and Tavares are no Crosby and Malkin with hindsight. It is odd Dubas went that route considering that's a really tough model to replicate. Those 16/17 Pens teams and 06 Hurricanes are the only teams in the cap era to win without a top tier defense group.

The Leafs probably would have been better off in hindsight not signing Tavares and dispersing the cap dollars more evenly throughout the lineup.

They don't sign JT for 11 and Matthews ask wouldn't start at +11M

 

[Seath The Scaleless]

Jt contract has not hurt us but signing Mathews and Marner to more money has limited us to fringe supporting cast. The pandemic cause us the most grief as the cap stayed flat, otherwise we would have been fine and still had a better supporting cast

This.

Was the contract a home run for the team? No, but we wouldn't be talking about it if the Pandemic never happened. Pretty sure the Leafs would not have signed him if they expected a flat cap for multiple years

If another top C makes it to UFA, teams will be lining up to sign again

 

[-DeMo-]

I gave the list of teams that were allowed to attend his dog and pony show and make a presentation to him , it was reported and confirmed , i didn't make up my this list . I'm going from memory so if i'm wrong on a team then or anyone else can free free to correct me .

I don't think i said Stamkos took a discount , i said Tampa didn't go over 10m for Kuch/Stamkos or Hedman so why would they go over that for a lesser player .

and whether Seguin signed before or slightly after Tavares it make no difference since him and Benn were the Stars top players at that time and Dallas gave neither over 10m

and you have stop posting like it was Sid who was a free agent instead a player the caliber of JT who is good amybe very good but no where near great

I do like how you mentioned how terrible the Islanders were , i wish the Leafs had there success after the savior left . conference finals 2 of the next 3 years and losing to Tampa by a goal in a game 7 to go to the cup final ain't to shabby for a terrible team

I would easily bet if Seguin/Benn hit the UFA market they would have got more then there current contracts, and there not the player Tavares was back then. they both signed 8 years which could have saved money on the cap since Tavares could only sign for 7. that extra year probably saved Dallas a few hundred thousand on the cap.

I didn't say you said Stamkos contract was a discount but the general consensus believes that to be true. hence why I'm using him as a comparable.

I also didn't say Tavares was the best in the league. I said he was the best player to hit the open market something you have yet to refute btw.

 

[TMLegend]

They don't sign JT for 11 and Matthews ask wouldn't start at +11M

Impossible to say. Personally, I think Matthews has always been about the money and would of wanted a similar contract regardless. This is a guy who wanted to be signed to extension making him the highest paid player in the league, this despite the fact he's nowhere near the calibre of player McDavid is, and he's got a bit of an injury history to boot.

I just don't believe signing Tavares had the effect on the Matthews and Marner contracts that many do. I think it's just a scapegoat for their greed.

 

[Drytoast]

Impossible to say. Personally, I think Matthews has always been about the money and would of wanted a similar contract regardless. This is a guy who wanted to be signed to extension making him the highest paid player in the league, this despite the fact he's nowhere near the calibre of player McDavid is, and he's got a bit of an injury history to boot.

I just don't believe signing Tavares had the effect on the Matthews and Marner contracts that many do. I think it's just a scapegoat for their greed.

I think it's very possible to say. I don't think it's a coincidence that we have 3 players making 11. And a 4th asking for that to stay.

 

[hotpaws]

I would easily bet if Seguin/Benn hit the UFA market they would have got more then there current contracts, and there not the player Tavares was back then. they both signed 8 years which could have saved money on the cap since Tavares could only sign for 7. that extra year probably saved Dallas a few hundred thousand on the cap.

I didn't say you said Stamkos contract was a discount but the general consensus believes that to be true. hence why I'm using him as a comparable.

I also didn't say Tavares was the best in the league. I said he was the best player to hit the open market something you have yet to refute btw.

The discussion was what the teams he allowed to speak to him potentially offered not what other players may have been offered had they not re upped with their current team .

-I gave you the list of teams
-I gave you my reasons on what they potential offered and why

and what to do you respond with ? deflection and bs about how it was THE Johnny f***ing Tavares who was the ufa and every team would blow there brains out to sign him because um reasons

but at the end of the day we're all entitled to our opinions so if it makes you to feel better to believe every team he spoke to offered as much if not more but he choose to pack his jammies and come home then i won't try to argue otherwise

 

[-DeMo-]

The discussion was what the teams he allowed to speak to him potentially offered not what other players may have been offered had they not re upped with their current team .

-I gave you the list of teams
-I gave you my reasons on what they potential offered and why

and what to do you respond with ? deflection and bs about how it was THE Johnny f***ing Tavares who was the ufa and every team would blow there brains out to sign him because um reasons

but at the end of the day we're all entitled to our opinions so if it makes you to feel better to believe every team he spoke to offered as much if not more but he choose to pack his jammies and come home then i won't try to argue otherwise

you continue to post the Johnny f***ing Tavares line as if that means something but when discussing what he potentially got offered does the quality of the player and the rarity of that quality of player hitting the UFA market not relevant? like that's ridiculous to say otherwise, but again you haven't even attempted to refute this aspect. probably because you can't.

so then there are 2 rumored deals providing evidence you choose to throw out as false because it doesn't fit your narrative, showing he was offered more by 2 separate teams again refuting the claim I originally objected to saying Tavares was all about the money.

but like you said we can each have our own opinion.

 

[Drytoast]

To be clear here. JT is a good hockey player. JT is NOT an 11M player. And him getting that has absolutely f***ED our dressing room.

 

[hotpaws]

you continue to post the Johnny f***ing Tavares line as if that means something but when discussing what he potentially got offered does the quality of the player and the rarity of that quality of player hitting the UFA market not relevant? like that's ridiculous to say otherwise, but again you haven't even attempted to refute this aspect. probably because you can't.

so then there are 2 rumored deals providing evidence you choose to throw out as false because it doesn't fit your narrative, showing he was offered more by 2 separate teams again refuting the claim I originally objected to saying Tavares was all about the money.

but like you said we can each have our own opinion.

I already mentioned i don't believe he's anywhere near as good a player as you try to make him out to be so you can keep harping on that but it won't change my mind or make it true . Hell this is his 6th season with us and if you can't see he's always needed his wingers to drive the play and create opportunities for him by now then chances are you'll never see it .

If you want to be believe SJ offered him 2.5m or more per year than any other player at that time then you can but f*** me i'm then left wondering how big a Leaf or GM homer do you have be to believe that non sense ?

as far as the other team which was rumored to have offered the same if not more then i'm guessing you mean NY which i already discussed and which is the only team that a GM came out and said what they offered and he said they were willing to go up to 10m per , now that was Snow but he was turfed and replaced by Lou so as i mentioned they may have upped there offer

and to finish it wasn't me who said he was all about the money but i will say he strung the Islanders along as a b/u plan to make sure the Leafs wanted and were willing to overpay him

 

[Maple Leaf]

When your fire is gone, so are you

 

[notDatsyuk]

ya that's perfect. 10M is as high as you should go with this cap. Certainly allows you to spread the cap love to important positions. And even though the cap is going up 4 mil that wouldn't all go to your 1C. But it has with us. Matthews just ate all of the cap's increase, leaving little to spare to any other position.

It's f***ing gross.

My calculator must be broken. I enter 13.25 - 11.64 but it keeps coming back with 1.61, not 4.

 

[notDatsyuk]

based on your numbers

he gave up 11 million in gaurenteed money on the Islanders deal simply by being a year longer, looks like he gave up 14 million compared to SJ offer as well if Dallas offered 11 in a no state tax that means he also gave up money there by signing in Toronto. I mean that pretty much shows all the options you provided were for more money then the leafs provided. but somehow JT signing here for less then those 3 offers your provided proves he's all about the money. which seems totally false.

your ask to go to 9.5 means he would be giving up almost 25 million compared to SJ's offer and in a high tax state give up 10.5 million before taxes are takin off in Ontario Canada compared to nothing in Dallas. and 21.5 million to the Islander offer. who else has left that much money on the table?

Edit: I mis-read your Dallas offer but the only 2 concreate offers your away of were for more money so the point is still valid

Yes, there were reports after the fact that Islanders had offered 11x8 and Sharks had offered 13x7.

No proof of either, and especially with the Islanders, it was known he wasn't going to re-sign there, so the offer was just show.

I don't think he was all about the money - he was all about coming to Toronto. If Dubas had been smart (well, if he'd been smart he wouldn't have signed him at all), he might have gotten him for 9.5.

when's the last time a player as good individually as Tavares hit the open market and you think the best offer he got besides us was 10 million per?

Stamkos, who got 8.5?

 

[notDatsyuk]

I completely disagree Center's are far more important to a team composition then wingers. I would gladly have my top two paid players as my #1 and #2 centers, it's the wingers that need to take the cut. great centers don't need great wingers to be top players. there impact on games far exceeed that of wingers.

the problem if you think we spent too much money on the forwards wasn't signing Tavares it was then not moving a Nylander or Marner for that quality Dmen when they were younger. why wouldn't you add a PPG center for free other then Money and Cap. your gaining so much value in terms of talent and trade capital. so no it wasn't signing Tavares that was the mistake it was not being willing to move other top talent to properly round out our lineup. again if you feel this team was to top heavy with the core 4 forwards.

Willy was a centre throughout his career, signed as a centre, played centre in the minors, and still plays centre with the Swedish team.

Even if you discount Kadri, did we need JT? No!

 

[Drytoast]

My calculator must be broken. I enter 13.25 - 11.64 but it keeps coming back with 1.61, not 4.

Ok he ate up over 25 percent of it. Does it matter? He's not worth it.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Ok he ate up over 25 percent of it. Does it matter? He's not worth it.

As my dad used to say: if I've told you once, I've told you a million times - don't exaggerate!

"Worth it" is a separate issue, but yes, it may well matter.

That extra $2.4 would bring Willy up to $9.3, which could be enough to get him to sign for one year, until JT's $11 is freed up.

 

[kevsh]

Willy was a centre throughout his career, signed as a centre, played centre in the minors, and still plays centre with the Swedish team.

Even if you discount Kadri, did we need JT? No!

Exactly.
Dubas allocated $11M of cap space to fill a hole in the lineup that wasn't a hole.
Matthews-Nylander-Kadri. Or even Matthews-Kadri-Generic 3C would have worked.

At the time the Leafs blueline was atrocious, for one.
Fast forward to today and Treliving is going to continue the theme: We already have a #1 RW but re-signing Nylander means we'll continue to have two #1 RWs and both making $10M+ (assuming Willie gets $10M+, and I would be shocked if he signs for less).

MLSE clearly still hasn't learned that cap space is a hugely important commodity and to build a playoff contender you have to allocate that space the right way. Having two #1Cs and two #1 RWs is not even close to efficient cap space allocation, unless your organization is more concerned with star power, selling merchandise, etc. than Stanley Cups ... Which is probably why they stick with this formula.