Tank Nation: Who's In?

[Sundinisagod]

Might want to prepare for the worst then, because there is next to no chance McDavid ends up in Toronto. There are some historically bad teams around the NHL lining up for that ticket.

All non playoff teams are in the lotto for 1st overall now...last place team only has a 25% chance at 1st overall if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Sundinisagod]

At our range, it is all about the skilled forwards, something we need in our prospect pool desperately.

Other then Haydn Fleury, there is virtually no D worth taking in our range. Honka is solid, but I have him 15-19 range.

Nick Ritchie is a kid I have fallen in love with, and should be available at 8-10. He is a big right winger, and put up 74 points in 61 games with the Petes' this season. For his size he is a good skater, and has a fantastic shot. Honestly, I REALLY want this kid, and would take him as high as 6.

Brendan Perlini is the linemate of Leaf draft pick Carter Verhaghe. Likely won't be available past the 8th pick, he is another good sized kid. He got 71 points in 58 games this season. He has very strong hockey IQ, and has tons of skill with the puck, to go along with strong speed.

William Nylander is the third on my list of hopeful draftees. He is a tad small at 5'11, but that allows him to fly around defenders, in a Kessel like fashion. He is an extremely skilled, highly dynamic player with great vision. This kid has all the tools to be a top end offensive player. He needs to improve his defensive game though. Posted 34 points in 57 games between the SHL and the Allsvenskan league.

For a draft that's been advertised as weak, there are plenty of nice options around the 10ish spot where we'll be selecting.

 

[Leaf Lander]

We are short 6 players

We need a stud # 1 center, #3 Center, 2 top 6 winger plus 2 top 4 dman.

We will definitely have a shot at getting a potential top 6 forward or dman in this Draft.


Our core isn't that bad. Kessel, JVR, Kadri, Bozak
+ Phaneuf GUNNER, Rielly and Gardiner
+ Bernier

 

[LeafsandSharksfan]

I think we can easily slip into the 9th spot at this rate

 

[Purity*]

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/03/24/leiweke-laughs-off-great-collapse-talk-has-faith-in-leafs


LOL

 

[Liminality]

We are short 6 players

We need a stud # 1 center, #3 Center, 2 top 6 winger plus 2 top 4 dman.

We will definitely have a shot at getting a potential top 6 forward or dman in this Draft.


Our core isn't that bad. Kessel, JVR, Kadri, Bozak
+ Phaneuf GUNNER, Rielly and Gardiner
+ Bernier

I think the biggest problem with getting all those players we're missing is finding room under the cap for all of them.

 

[weems]

Teams that consistantly win in the NHL nowadays play a full 200 foot game.

The Leafs dont..........Not even close.

 

[tamle]

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/03/24/leiweke-laughs-off-great-collapse-talk-has-faith-in-leafs


LOL

“So with nine games left, we’re about to find out how much we’ve grown as an organization. We’ll do one of two things. We’ll give up, which would tell us an awful lot about what we have to do here. Or we’ll respond and get in. If we do, we’ll probably have to win six games. I wouldn’t want to play us then, because we’d be the hot team going in.â€

Based on that, it looks like Leiweke might do some house cleaning in the offseason.

 

[Rare Jewel]

Yea Kessel doesn't hit, So let's trade him. And you take you take a shot at Mats.

Just wow.

 

[LeafsNation75]

I remember the day Mats Sundin wasn’t traded (who u think is amazing, but yet was traded to the leafs and surprise surprise didn’t win anything) and we were destined to be mediocure forever, Mccabe, Kaberle, ect didn’t want to move. We had no picks and went into the draft selecting 7th. We should have been in last, grabbing either Stamkos or Doughty but “we need playoffs†attitude is so wrong.

Around that time didn't JFJ want to do a rebuild, however he wasn't allowed to and was eventually fired during the 07-08 season. You said it yourself that the Leafs couldn't have traded anyone because Sundin, Tucker, McCabe, Kaberle, and Kubina all had those no trades. So I don't think the Leafs were trying to make the playoffs that season because after Fletcher took over he traded as many players as he could at the trade deadline for draft picks.

 

[sw13]

The Leafs are a flawed team. There is no example in the NHL where you core was built through trades, why? Because no successful franchise has built their team this way. Boston had Kessel, since they have been the best team in the East winning a Stanley cup and are currently in 1st place. If he was a core player, one you NEEDED to win Boston woudn’t have traded him, and since they have they have won. Phaneuf was also acquired in trade, Lupul, Gardiner, JVR(but to some extent it was a core for core players, he had injury problem ect) and Bernier who is a #1 behind a very good goalie in Quick. If any of these players were players you win with the teams that drafted them wouldn’t have traded them.

The class of the NHL is jonathan Toews, Sydney Crosby. Why are these players so successful as well as winners? Because they care, they backcheck, they hit fight get into arguments get angry ect. Kessel (our star player) doesn’t back check he doesn’t hit, when we need a big play he shy’s away from contact. Phaneuf he is one of our core players as well, when Backes challenged him (St. Louis #1 Center not some bum on the 4th line) he shied away. When Simmonds challenged him he shied away, and then took on Voracheck? (sp?) What does that mean to your younger players or depth players who you are expected to fight, to backcheck? It is a trickle down effect from your best players to your worst. It will wear off on them when they see these star players getting paid 5,7, 8 million who don’t do anything it takes to actually win a game? No, this goes to my 1st point, don’t sign players to long-term deals unless they have actually won something. I have said it for a long time, I would trade Kessel and Phaneuf before giving them those deals, those players aren’t winners, they havn’t won anything and have just successfully collapsed for a 3rd straight year.

This comes to my 2nd point, how to build a successful team. Thinking back to Brian Burke yesterday his philosophy is to build a winning culture. We saw this wasn’t a good game plan in Vancouver (idc about playoffs, I care about actually winning the cup) but we saw this was a good game plan in Anaheim (after a core was built with Getz, Perry ect). Toronto doesn’t have that core, they have a bunch of has-beens. They had it even worse when Burke got here. The normal Toronto fan hears Toews is amazing blah blah blah, but I hear Bennet is amazing and the only way to acquire a Toews calibre player is to draft them. Toews will never be traded because he is a star player, that can win and we cannot get a player like that unless we draft them. Building through the draft is the only way to build a successful team. Yes it doesn’t work everytime, but its based on the players you draft. You have a much more likely chance to draft a star player with more picks (simple math) and higher picks (getting to pick the player you want more likely). You need that one player who will do everything to win and will push every player to get better. For example Kobe calls out his players all the time when they suck, I have yet to hear kessel or phaneuf call anyone out on their play. Need a franchise player who isn’t someone’s hamie downs, someone another team didn’t want. No teams have built there team to be a successful one without drafting core pieces. Toronto is the only team in the league who built their core primarily through trades. Drafting and Developing leads to long-term success rather than trading and hoping cause people want it to be a speedy process but it isn’t. It isn’t like soccer where u can buy a player, or the MLB where you can just pay players, to be successful in the NHL you need to draft and develop your own talent.

I remember the day Mats Sundin wasn’t traded (who u think is amazing, but yet was traded to the leafs and surprise surprise didn’t win anything) and we were destined to be mediocure forever, Mccabe, Kaberle, ect didn’t want to move. We had no picks and went into the draft selecting 7th. We should have been in last, grabbing either Stamkos or Doughty but “we need playoffs†attitude is so wrong. Once you have a core (like Edmontons) then you can say “we need playoffs†but we don’t have a core, we had nothing and should have rebuilt the team. Since then we have traded for everyone’s hamie downs and players who can help your core, but are signed as our core. I have wanted a proper rebuild since the days of sundin, we could have picked Stamkos/Doughty, Tavares/Duchene, Seguin/Hall, RNH/Huberdeau/Couterier, but no, instead we got Kessel at a stupid cap hit, JVR, and Kadri. On what planet is Kessel, JVR (which was an amazing trade by management) and Kadri (who was properly developed) better than (at worst) Doughty, Duchene, Seguin and Couterier? I am tired of watching the Leafs team try and make quick fixes and try and make the playoffs faster, its about building through the draft, replenishing picks for dwindling assets and I have no idea how this idea how this theory just escaped the Toronto maple leafs for so long. I have no idea why management is so inept in making simple asset management decisions.


Last point, which teams are successful in hockey? I am not looking at anything, this is all from memory but here are my top teams:
St. Louis Blue (still haven’t won anything) drafted players: Pieterangelo, Backes, Oshie (traded for non core players Bouwemester, Steen, Miller)
Pitsburgh Penguins (won) drafted players: Sydney Crosby, Marc Andre Fluery, Malkin, Letang. And this doesn’t include all their good Dmen they have selected (traded for non core players Neal, Kunitz)
LA Kings drafted players include: Brown, Kopitar, Doughty (have failed a lot in the draft too, but they got Richards and Carter through trades with one of their top picks in Schenn and Johnson but top picks<<<< playoffs right?)
Chicago Blackhawks core players: Toews, Seabrook, Keith, Kane (non core players Hossa (UFA) Sharp)
Boston Bruins (PROLLY CLOSEST THING YOU WILL SEE TO ACTUALLY NOT USING THE DRAFT)  core players Bergeron, Lucic, Marchand, Kreicji (other core players Chara UFA, Rask trade, Seguin and Hamilton through a guy they took top 5)
San Jose Sharks (STILL HAVNâ€T WON ANYTHING) core players Marleau, Couture, Vlasic (other core players Thornton Trade, Boyle)
Anaheim Getz, Perry, Fowler, (other core pieces Hiller UFA, Selanne)


Winning the Stanley cup is the ultimate goal, not just making the playoffs and this core has proven 3 straight years they cant even make the playoffs rather than win, blow it up. As far as im concerned Rielly, JVR (mostly because of his contract is so nice) and Bernier are our only untouchables, build through the draft, bring in core pieces that want to win, that have heart and leadership. We have the toughest position set, we just need the 2-3 more core pieces aka Bennet/Ekblad and a McDavid type of player and we would finally be a legit contender every year for the next decade. I would prefer that and lose all of next season than try and make the playoffs, miss (or even make it), get beat out in the 1st round and draft 20’s. This team needs a star player, they aren’t available through trades, or UFA but the draft, you need to get lucky but I would rather taking my chances with the draft than constantly being mediocre and saying “were so close†with mediocre players.

Good post. I agree. We would need a new GM for this though. I really believe the best thing would be for us to lose every game down the stretch.

 

[sw13]

The Leafs are a flawed team. There is no example in the NHL where you core was built through trades, why? Because no successful franchise has built their team this way. Boston had Kessel, since they have been the best team in the East winning a Stanley cup and are currently in 1st place. If he was a core player, one you NEEDED to win Boston woudn’t have traded him, and since they have they have won. Phaneuf was also acquired in trade, Lupul, Gardiner, JVR(but to some extent it was a core for core players, he had injury problem ect) and Bernier who is a #1 behind a very good goalie in Quick. If any of these players were players you win with the teams that drafted them wouldn’t have traded them.

The class of the NHL is jonathan Toews, Sydney Crosby. Why are these players so successful as well as winners? Because they care, they backcheck, they hit fight get into arguments get angry ect. Kessel (our star player) doesn’t back check he doesn’t hit, when we need a big play he shy’s away from contact. Phaneuf he is one of our core players as well, when Backes challenged him (St. Louis #1 Center not some bum on the 4th line) he shied away. When Simmonds challenged him he shied away, and then took on Voracheck? (sp?) What does that mean to your younger players or depth players who you are expected to fight, to backcheck? It is a trickle down effect from your best players to your worst. It will wear off on them when they see these star players getting paid 5,7, 8 million who don’t do anything it takes to actually win a game? No, this goes to my 1st point, don’t sign players to long-term deals unless they have actually won something. I have said it for a long time, I would trade Kessel and Phaneuf before giving them those deals, those players aren’t winners, they havn’t won anything and have just successfully collapsed for a 3rd straight year.

This comes to my 2nd point, how to build a successful team. Thinking back to Brian Burke yesterday his philosophy is to build a winning culture. We saw this wasn’t a good game plan in Vancouver (idc about playoffs, I care about actually winning the cup) but we saw this was a good game plan in Anaheim (after a core was built with Getz, Perry ect). Toronto doesn’t have that core, they have a bunch of has-beens. They had it even worse when Burke got here. The normal Toronto fan hears Toews is amazing blah blah blah, but I hear Bennet is amazing and the only way to acquire a Toews calibre player is to draft them. Toews will never be traded because he is a star player, that can win and we cannot get a player like that unless we draft them. Building through the draft is the only way to build a successful team. Yes it doesn’t work everytime, but its based on the players you draft. You have a much more likely chance to draft a star player with more picks (simple math) and higher picks (getting to pick the player you want more likely). You need that one player who will do everything to win and will push every player to get better. For example Kobe calls out his players all the time when they suck, I have yet to hear kessel or phaneuf call anyone out on their play. Need a franchise player who isn’t someone’s hamie downs, someone another team didn’t want. No teams have built there team to be a successful one without drafting core pieces. Toronto is the only team in the league who built their core primarily through trades. Drafting and Developing leads to long-term success rather than trading and hoping cause people want it to be a speedy process but it isn’t. It isn’t like soccer where u can buy a player, or the MLB where you can just pay players, to be successful in the NHL you need to draft and develop your own talent.

I remember the day Mats Sundin wasn’t traded (who u think is amazing, but yet was traded to the leafs and surprise surprise didn’t win anything) and we were destined to be mediocure forever, Mccabe, Kaberle, ect didn’t want to move. We had no picks and went into the draft selecting 7th. We should have been in last, grabbing either Stamkos or Doughty but “we need playoffs†attitude is so wrong. Once you have a core (like Edmontons) then you can say “we need playoffs†but we don’t have a core, we had nothing and should have rebuilt the team. Since then we have traded for everyone’s hamie downs and players who can help your core, but are signed as our core. I have wanted a proper rebuild since the days of sundin, we could have picked Stamkos/Doughty, Tavares/Duchene, Seguin/Hall, RNH/Huberdeau/Couterier, but no, instead we got Kessel at a stupid cap hit, JVR, and Kadri. On what planet is Kessel, JVR (which was an amazing trade by management) and Kadri (who was properly developed) better than (at worst) Doughty, Duchene, Seguin and Couterier? I am tired of watching the Leafs team try and make quick fixes and try and make the playoffs faster, its about building through the draft, replenishing picks for dwindling assets and I have no idea how this idea how this theory just escaped the Toronto maple leafs for so long. I have no idea why management is so inept in making simple asset management decisions.


Last point, which teams are successful in hockey? I am not looking at anything, this is all from memory but here are my top teams:
St. Louis Blue (still haven’t won anything) drafted players: Pieterangelo, Backes, Oshie (traded for non core players Bouwemester, Steen, Miller)
Pitsburgh Penguins (won) drafted players: Sydney Crosby, Marc Andre Fluery, Malkin, Letang. And this doesn’t include all their good Dmen they have selected (traded for non core players Neal, Kunitz)
LA Kings drafted players include: Brown, Kopitar, Doughty (have failed a lot in the draft too, but they got Richards and Carter through trades with one of their top picks in Schenn and Johnson but top picks<<<< playoffs right?)
Chicago Blackhawks core players: Toews, Seabrook, Keith, Kane (non core players Hossa (UFA) Sharp)
Boston Bruins (PROLLY CLOSEST THING YOU WILL SEE TO ACTUALLY NOT USING THE DRAFT)  core players Bergeron, Lucic, Marchand, Kreicji (other core players Chara UFA, Rask trade, Seguin and Hamilton through a guy they took top 5)
San Jose Sharks (STILL HAVNâ€T WON ANYTHING) core players Marleau, Couture, Vlasic (other core players Thornton Trade, Boyle)
Anaheim Getz, Perry, Fowler, (other core pieces Hiller UFA, Selanne)


Winning the Stanley cup is the ultimate goal, not just making the playoffs and this core has proven 3 straight years they cant even make the playoffs rather than win, blow it up. As far as im concerned Rielly, JVR (mostly because of his contract is so nice) and Bernier are our only untouchables, build through the draft, bring in core pieces that want to win, that have heart and leadership. We have the toughest position set, we just need the 2-3 more core pieces aka Bennet/Ekblad and a McDavid type of player and we would finally be a legit contender every year for the next decade. I would prefer that and lose all of next season than try and make the playoffs, miss (or even make it), get beat out in the 1st round and draft 20’s. This team needs a star player, they aren’t available through trades, or UFA but the draft, you need to get lucky but I would rather taking my chances with the draft than constantly being mediocre and saying “were so close†with mediocre players.

I disagree though about Kessel, JVR and Kadri. They should be who you keep no matter what. As well as Gardiner, Rielly, Bernier and some of the young Marlies.

 

[RedeyeRocketeer]

You can augment via trades, and probably significantly. Richards + Carter to L.A. comes to mind. But ya, you need to build a winning core from the ground up, and usually if it's easy come, it's probably not the right formula.

The Leafs core always struck me as MLSE doing just enough to sell tickets, and never enough to build a contender. The tough part really is that the core is inked for so long that nothing will change.

And that's a really disappointing thing, because the league is without a question better when the Leafs are flying high. We're all far worse off having the Leafs slumping.

 

[LeafsFIO*]

Yeah, let's tank in the worst draft of the decade, and get Roland McKeown or Spencer Watson, who are currently a part of one of the worst choke jobs in OHL history. That'll solve our problem!

 

[ULF_55]

Yeah, let's tank in the worst draft of the decade, and get Roland McKeown or Spencer Watson, who are currently a part of one of the worst choke jobs in OHL history. That'll solve our problem!

Maybe someone should have told MLSE?

They have tanked, now it is determining how low they fall.

 

[MastuhNinks]

You absolutely can win through trades and without tanking.


Sports fans, particularly users on this message board, really fail to understand that correlation does not equal causation. A couple teams winning the Cup with a bunch of high-drafted players doesn't mean that that's the only way one could possibly win a Stanley Cup. Teams that win the Stanley Cup tend to have elite players. Elite players tend to be drafted high. However, that does not mean that you need to draft high to acquire elite players.

Boston - Chara, Thomas, Rask, Horton, Seidenberg, Recchi weren't drafted by the Bruins. They had a few key contributors drafted by the team, but none were high draft picks.

Anaehim - Niedermayer, Pronger, Giegure, Selanne, Beauchemin, Pahlsson weren't drafted by the Ducks. Yes, they had Getzlaf and Perry as key contributors but neither player was drafted high, it can never be the expectation to have players like that fall into your lap. I don't think they had any significant contributors who were drafted high by the team.

The 2008 Red Wings sorta fit this model too, obviously they had some excellent players drafted by the team, but none were very high draft picks and the team was built through organizational intelligence, not tanking.

The fact that these teams acquired a few core players who were late-ish picks and absolute steals doesn't really do much for the 'drafting is the only way to win' argument IMO, because truthfully any team, regardless of how they're 'trying' to build their team will benefit from a Datsyuk at pick 171 or a Krejci at pick 63.

I don't think the 2007 Ducks, 2008 Red Wings or 2011 Bruins had a 'build through the draft' mentality.

 

[The CyNick]

I really wish every time someone mentions drafting and success a picture of Chara and Tim Thomas carrying the Cup automatically pops up.

If we drafted Phil Kessel, would that make him a solid piece for the future? Would our goaltending be in better shape if we kept Frattin, Scrivens, and the pick?

I would love to see some people on here attempt to tank and rebuild the "right way" and end up worth the Florida Panthers.

You think Blues fans care that JayBow, Steen, and Miller were not drafted? In 93 did we care that Dougie was acquired through trade?

 

[ryno23]

I really wish every time someone mentions drafting and success a picture of Chara and Tim Thomas carrying the Cup automatically pops up.

If we drafted Phil Kessel, would that make him a solid piece for the future? Would our goaltending be in better shape if we kept Frattin, Scrivens, and the pick?

I would love to see some people on here attempt to tank and rebuild the "right way" and end up worth the Florida Panthers.

You think Blues fans care that JayBow, Steen, and Miller were not drafted? In 93 did we care that Dougie was acquired through trade?

That is what folks tend to not see. It's the media creating these storylines but they tend to omit a few facts to fit their agenda.

Do we have core pieces here yes we do. Can we add a few more in the next couple of years to follow the pattern like Boston, Chicago and LA sure we can.

Ok so we draft Sam Bennett this year is he leading us to the cup in 2 years? Is he a superstar in the Toews, Malkin, Crosby mode? I don't think so but hey he is a high pick so that should turn us aroung no matter what. Those fail to remember Patrik Stefan, Alex Stitov all high picks and failed.

 

[TheJet11]

I'd love to slide down all the way to the #7 pick! since we've already sh@t that bed on the playoffs, we might as well tank for the best possible player.

Call up some kids, see what they can do, and try to help the team moving forward into 2014-2015.

 

[Mojo19]

A little late for that.

Brian Burke set this team back by a decade. Get ready for another 5 years of mediocre finishes and mediocre picks.

What did Burke do to harm this team?

 

[soulie]

earlier in this thread I was hoping for Leafs to snap out of it .... well times are a changing, hopefully James-18-Wheeler-Reimer is in the nets from now until the end of the season.

 

[ACC1224]

What did Burke do to harm this team?

Hired Nonis and Carlyle?

 

[Faltorvo]

You absolutely can win through trades and without tanking.


Sports fans, particularly users on this message board, really fail to understand that correlation does not equal causation. A couple teams winning the Cup with a bunch of high-drafted players doesn't mean that that's the only way one could possibly win a Stanley Cup. Teams that win the Stanley Cup tend to have elite players. Elite players tend to be drafted high. However, that does not mean that you need to draft high to acquire elite players.

Boston - Chara, Thomas, Rask, Horton, Seidenberg, Recchi weren't drafted by the Bruins. They had a few key contributors drafted by the team, but none were high draft picks.

Anaehim - Niedermayer, Pronger, Giegure, Selanne, Beauchemin, Pahlsson weren't drafted by the Ducks. Yes, they had Getzlaf and Perry as key contributors but neither player was drafted high, it can never be the expectation to have players like that fall into your lap. I don't think they had any significant contributors who were drafted high by the team.

The 2008 Red Wings sorta fit this model too, obviously they had some excellent players drafted by the team, but none were very high draft picks and the team was built through organizational intelligence, not tanking.

The fact that these teams acquired a few core players who were late-ish picks and absolute steals doesn't really do much for the 'drafting is the only way to win' argument IMO, because truthfully any team, regardless of how they're 'trying' to build their team will benefit from a Datsyuk at pick 171 or a Krejci at pick 63.

I don't think the 2007 Ducks, 2008 Red Wings or 2011 Bruins had a 'build through the draft' mentality.

tell ya what, you keep on holding out hope that this organisation will start drafting like the elites

i'll settle for the higher drafts slots that normally have a higher % chance of becoming important players.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Ok so we draft Sam Bennett this year is he leading us to the cup in 2 years? Is he a superstar in the Toews, Malkin, Crosby mode? I don't think so but hey he is a high pick so that should turn us aroung no matter what. Those fail to remember Patrik Stefan, Alex Stitov all high picks and failed.

I would also add Rick DiPietro who was failure for a 1st overall pick.

 

[Faltorvo]

I would also add Rick DiPietro who was failure for a 1st overall pick.

so many here wetting their panties because we might blow a high draft pick and yet they tend be among the first in line to hope our drafting latter on is what will create our core or get us over the top.