Tank Nation: Who's In?

[jimmycarter]

too long, didn't read.

 

[sand1138man]

Seriously, I dont get it, im not particularly a Toronto Fan, but looking at the standings it is no where near impossible for the leafs to make it,

if you can go 4 and 2 you end up with 88, if wash goes 3-4 the end up with 87, if columbus goes 2-4-1 they end up with 87, and if detroit goes 2 and 5 they end up with 88 loinsing the tie break to the leafs.

if the leafs can go 5-1 the end up with 90, washington goes 4-2-1 and still loses the tie break, then either if columbus goes under 500% your in, or if detroit goes 3-5 your in by tie-break.....

if a miracle happens and the leafs win out, they end with 92, wash could go 5-1-1 and still lose the tie break, columbus would have to do better than 4-3-1 to get it, OR detroit goes 4-3 your in by tie break..


basically win some games, catch up one point on washington and you will win the tie break, and hope either columbus or detroit skids, (probably columbus if either team does)

 

[Duffman955]

I think we can easily slip into the 9th spot at this rate

nothing feels better than a 9th place finish.

No playoffs+****** pick.


How can it get any better?

 

[bursilym]

Seriously, I dont get it, im not particularly a Toronto Fan, but looking at the standings it is no where near impossible for the leafs to make it,

if you can go 4 and 2 you end up with 88, if wash goes 3-4 the end up with 87, if columbus goes 2-4-1 they end up with 87, and if detroit goes 2 and 5 they end up with 88 loinsing the tie break to the leafs.

if the leafs can go 5-1 the end up with 90, washington goes 4-2-1 and still loses the tie break, then either if columbus goes under 500% your in, or if detroit goes 3-5 your in by tie-break.....

if a miracle happens and the leafs win out, they end with 92, wash could go 5-1-1 and still lose the tie break, columbus would have to do better than 4-3-1 to get it, OR detroit goes 4-3 your in by tie break..


basically win some games, catch up one point on washington and you will win the tie break, and hope either columbus or detroit skids, (probably columbus if either team does)

U r kidding me right? You really think a team that just went like 1-9 in last ten games is going to go 5-1 or 6-0? We cant beat anyone at the moment.

 

[Teeder9]

Seriously, I dont get it, im not particularly a Toronto Fan, but looking at the standings it is no where near impossible for the leafs to make it,

if you can go 4 and 2 you end up with 88, if wash goes 3-4 the end up with 87, if columbus goes 2-4-1 they end up with 87, and if detroit goes 2 and 5 they end up with 88 loinsing the tie break to the leafs.

if the leafs can go 5-1 the end up with 90, washington goes 4-2-1 and still loses the tie break, then either if columbus goes under 500% your in, or if detroit goes 3-5 your in by tie-break.....

if a miracle happens and the leafs win out, they end with 92, wash could go 5-1-1 and still lose the tie break, columbus would have to do better than 4-3-1 to get it, OR detroit goes 4-3 your in by tie break..


basically win some games, catch up one point on washington and you will win the tie break, and hope either columbus or detroit skids, (probably columbus if either team does)

Not that I seriously believe any of this would ever happen. But, what if it did and we won the cup. What would that mean for a rebuild if the point of a rebuild was realized?

 

[91Stammer*]

How many players drafted by Toronto has actually played for Toronto since 2003? No trade nor draft picks can save this team's mediocrity. We drafted Steen and Rask and then we traded them. Now it's Kadri's turn. Keep drafting and trading this team is bound to be a failure. I say keep whatever you have and keep adding pieces.

With guys like Gauthier, Leivo, Ashton, Brown, Verhaeghe, Herzog, Johnson, Granberg, Nilsson, Loov, Percy, Finn etc; I can finally hope for a day when this young ones will turn this team's fate around.

 

[cack]

nothing feels better than a 9th place finish.

No playoffs+****** pick.


How can it get any better?

 

[Teeder9]

I blame Mr. and Mrs MLSE for raising such ****** kids

 

[JackJ]

Please lose the next six..Thanks

 

[Mess]

Don't look now but NJD won to move to 79 points (-1 point back) with a game in hand and OTT won moving to 78 points (-2 points back with a game in hand.

Leafs aren't really in 3 way race for the last WC spot but rather a 5 way race.

 

[Pi]

Don't look now but NJD won to move to 79 points (-1 point back) with a game in hand and OTT won moving to 78 points (-2 points back with a game in hand.

Leafs aren't really in 3 way race for the last WC spot but rather a 5 way race.

It's over. Leafs aren't making the playoffs. Teams around this time (besides the Leafs) tighten up defensively and start to play for a point before getting the 2nd.

Our team has too many holes.

It is great if OTT, CAR, WIN somehow pass us. At least our free fall would result in a good pick.

 

[Pi]

Please lose the next six..Thanks

That's what I am hoping for. If we lose the next five or six games, we could end up a top 7 pick.

 

[Leaf Lander]

How many players drafted by Toronto has actually played for Toronto since 2003? No trade nor draft picks can save this team's mediocrity. We drafted Steen and Rask and then we traded them. Now it's Kadri's turn. Keep drafting and trading this team is bound to be a failure. I say keep whatever you have and keep adding pieces.

With guys like Gauthier, Leivo, Ashton, Brown, Verhaeghe, Herzog, Johnson, Granberg, Nilsson, Loov, Percy, Finn etc; I can finally hope for a day when this young ones will turn this team's fate around.

It is unlikely that any of them will turn out to be high end player though

 

[SmoggyTwinkles]

Don't look now but NJD won to move to 79 points (-1 point back) with a game in hand and OTT won moving to 78 points (-2 points back with a game in hand.

Leafs aren't really in 3 way race for the last WC spot but rather a 5 way race.

Leafs could feasibly drop to drafting 6th overall if the lose out the rest of the way!

So they'll probably go 5-1 to close it out and still miss the playoffs

 

[JAMmer124]

It is unlikely that any of them will turn out to be high end player though

Agreed, that's the big problem with the Leafs system, no "great" prospects unless we're counting Rielly still as a prospect. We have a tonne of players that will fill roles someday, but they'll be niche players like 3rd line centres, bottom 3 defencemen, backup goaltenders. Nothing special, but decent players.

Up front, really only Josh Leivo has a realistic shot at being a top 6 forward for us, he's produced well in the AHL for a 20 year old, and didn't look out of place in the NHL either. Gauthier will probably be a good third line centre someday, but likely won't have the offense to be a top six centre. Peter Holland could probably develop into a second line centre if we stop bouncing him around the line-up and the Marlies.

Guys like Percy, Finn, Granberg, MacWilliam project to be 4/5/6 guys really, Percy and Finn could be good second pairing guys at best but not top pairing material.

 

[Stephen]

The more you look at it, the more the Leafs just lack basic hockey intelligence as a group. Forget age, work ethic, skill, pay cheque, whatever, the Leafs just play like chickens with their heads cut off, and it's worse when teams put the screws on them. It's a team that can allow multiple odd man rushes on any given when they aren't even turning over the puck (because they don't even have it). Whatever it is Patrice Bergeron has going on in his head, there aren't a lot of Leaf players you'd classify as "heads up".

If you read what Columbus is doing, they're trying to draft for hockey intelligence first and foremost. Detroit apparently has a philosophy that if you draft for intelligence, these guys will have the smarts to adapt to higher competition given the right training, structure, mentorship and development time. Contrast that with Dave Morrison, who wasted about two draft classes chasing after thugs...

 

[weems]

The more you look at it, the more the Leafs just lack basic hockey intelligence as a group. Forget age, work ethic, skill, pay cheque, whatever, the Leafs just play like chickens with their heads cut off, and it's worse when teams put the screws on them. It's a team that can allow multiple odd man rushes on any given when they aren't even turning over the puck (because they don't even have it). Whatever it is Patrice Bergeron has going on in his head, there aren't a lot of Leaf players you'd classify as "heads up".

If you read what Columbus is doing, they're trying to draft for hockey intelligence first and foremost. Detroit apparently has a philosophy that if you draft for intelligence, these guys will have the smarts to adapt to higher competition given the right training, structure, mentorship and development time. Contrast that with Dave Morrison, who wasted about two draft classes chasing after thugs...

Hockeysense has always been somewhat underrated when it comes to drafting.

With the speed of the game getting quicker every year, hockeysense is becoming a more important trait compared to the old clutch and grab era. Being able to make smart, consistant, high % plays at top speed is a very important thing nowadays.

 

[Stephen]

Yeah it's also illustrated clearly when Rielly was the best Leaf on Saturday. Why? Because his smarts allowed him to execute under pressure while a lot of his dumber teammates struggled in all situations.

 

[weems]

Yeah it's also illustrated clearly when Rielly was the best Leaf on Saturday. Why? Because his smarts allowed him to execute under pressure while a lot of his dumber teammates struggled in all situations.

Speed and hockeysense are reigning huge in the NHL nowadays.

We draft to many grinders/3rd line ceiling types with limited upside for my liking.

 

[pooleboy]

How many players drafted by Toronto has actually played for Toronto since 2003? No trade nor draft picks can save this team's mediocrity. We drafted Steen and Rask and then we traded them. Now it's Kadri's turn. Keep drafting and trading this team is bound to be a failure. I say keep whatever you have and keep adding pieces.

With guys like Gauthier, Leivo, Ashton, Brown, Verhaeghe, Herzog, Johnson, Granberg, Nilsson, Loov, Percy, Finn etc; I can finally hope for a day when this young ones will turn this team's fate around.

Hey by all means, i think i argued this in my post saying its more likely to draft a player with higher picks. When i say that i mean top 3, our closest to top 3 is with rielly and he was 5 we got schenn at 5 but got 7th and seguin 2 hamilton 7th can u tell me that, or even doughty/seguin/duchenne/couterier if we bottomed out for 4 years, plus bernier theres your core with rielly, all on elc or just above and if they are proven superstars sign them long term if there not trade them for other asseta to help us longterm.

 

[pooleboy]

You absolutely can win through trades and without tanking.


Sports fans, particularly users on this message board, really fail to understand that correlation does not equal causation. A couple teams winning the Cup with a bunch of high-drafted players doesn't mean that that's the only way one could possibly win a Stanley Cup. Teams that win the Stanley Cup tend to have elite players. Elite players tend to be drafted high. However, that does not mean that you need to draft high to acquire elite players.

Boston - Chara, Thomas, Rask, Horton, Seidenberg, Recchi weren't drafted by the Bruins. They had a few key contributors drafted by the team, but none were high draft picks.

Anaehim - Niedermayer, Pronger, Giegure, Selanne, Beauchemin, Pahlsson weren't drafted by the Ducks. Yes, they had Getzlaf and Perry as key contributors but neither player was drafted high, it can never be the expectation to have players like that fall into your lap. I don't think they had any significant contributors who were drafted high by the team.

The 2008 Red Wings sorta fit this model too, obviously they had some excellent players drafted by the team, but none were very high draft picks and the team was built through organizational intelligence, not tanking.

The fact that these teams acquired a few core players who were late-ish picks and absolute steals doesn't really do much for the 'drafting is the only way to win' argument IMO, because truthfully any team, regardless of how they're 'trying' to build their team will benefit from a Datsyuk at pick 171 or a Krejci at pick 63.

I don't think the 2007 Ducks, 2008 Red Wings or 2011 Bruins had a 'build through the draft' mentality.

I also said the bruins were the closest, they were ufa and everyone in toronto new pogge wasnt better than rask, if u took a poll to even the most educated leaf fan 95% at the time would say trade pogge first, but leafs did it again "derp derp we need playoffs" mentality.

Anaheim also got lucky with having a hall of famer, (a winner btw, i put a lot of emphasis on this in my post) in ufa to join his brother. They also got pronger in a trade where he wanted to leave, unlike phaneuf who was traded out of nowhere, and kessel because boston chose krecji over him, who btw is a center. No one can argue that a lineup today that consisted of bottoming out for 4 years of (no first overall picks either) doughty, seguin, couterier, duchenne up from (3 of which toronto boys coming from ohl) but no we got kadri traded up for schenn and instead of tanking traded for kessel, who btw is now being paid like a superstar, but has never led his team to anything. Just like ovie, wingers, especially hardcore scoring wingers cant be ur whole team, need someone to lead. Back to kessel, he is also off his elc, a big thing about that is u can keep a player around without losing him for nothing and based on his play decide if u want to keep him or let him go. Problem is, if u let a player go its for 2 reasons, he wants to leave or he isnt a core piece/won something to warrant a contract. If we had something like this:

Duchenne
Seguin
Couterier

Rielly-doughty

Bernier

All before ufa, or coming up to it where u get to decide if u want to keep them (in my post im assuming u want to keep them if they actually win something). Please argue me that that isnt way better and deeper than this core:

Jvr-xxx-kessel
Lupul-kadri-clarkson

Rielly-phaneuf
Gardiner

Bernier

However this lineup costs way more, yes u have them for their primes but u didnt have them before to build with and learn the system. Please argue with this post before u say any negative posts in this thread. Should debunk everyone of them, im just saying what the leafs should do is something like this:

Trade phaneuf+ kadri (or gauthier whatever gets it done) to edmonton for the 2nd overall select ekblad or bennet
Trade kessel to anaheim for lindholm + etem + ottawa 1st -> draft dertasil or dal colle
Trade lupul to the highest bidder (1st + prospect)
Our pick select ritchie/ ho-sang/fleury

Absolutly tank next season(will be hard with bernier) and get mcdavid, however if we dont we still have a decent looking core going forward

Jvr-bozak-clarkson
Kulemin-bolland-leivo
Biggs-mcclement

Gardiner-gunnerson
Rielly-gleason

Bernier

With prospects (high level) in the wake looking like this:

Jvr-dratisl-ritchie
Etem-bolland-leivo

Rielly-ekblad
Gardiner-lindholm

Bernier

* note i want to say that this is all on top of my head
* note i want to say that if we tanked for mcdavid we would be a contender every year for the next 10 and actually maybe win it
* note i made up the edmonton trade based on needs of them needing a good defenceman who can "help" a team, but the anaheim one came from different proposals on the main board.

 

[DaveT83*]

I'll sum everything up.


YOUR ****ING RETOOL DIDN'T WORK. ITS BEEN 10 YEARS IN THE NEW NHL AND THE BEST THIS TEAM HAS ACCOMPLISHED IS THE NHL'S WORST COLLAPSE IN THE FIRST ROUND.


SO ANYONE ARGUING THAT CONTINUING FURTHER DOWN THIS PATH - IS EITHER MENTALLY INCOMPETANT - OR AS I SUSPECT BEIGN PAID TO POST PROPOGANDA AND DISINFORMATION ON THIS SITE.



There is no team in the league that has won a cup simply by DRAFTING ELITE players.
There is no team in the league that has won a cup simply be TRADING for ELITE players.


Drafting ELITE talent costs as close to NOTHING in the New NHL as is humanly possible. FOR THE FIRST 3 YEARS OF THAT PLAYERS CAREER.

Trading for ELITE talent in the new NHL is all but impossible to do. ELITE players acquired through trade when possible COST ENORMOUS ORGANIZATIONAL assets. Not to mention $$$$ which in a HARD SALARY CAP world is paramount to success.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

We need to be creative in the summer and do a proper rebuild and rid our self of the big contracts.

Since we can trade players and retain salary I think that is our chance to restock with picks and prospects. Dion at 7x7 is pretty much untraceable but Dion at 5x7 not so much. Kessel could probably be traded even at 8x8 but if he would be traded for 6x8 then we are talking a much bigger return. That would leave us with 4x7 tied up in cap space but in the coming 3 years or so we would not have to worry about it with all the young guys on the team and the cap will most likely have gone up a lot after that.

Islanders and Oilers have a bunch of good to great young players but need established players, we should be willing to do what it takes to get their 1st round picks (Rielly and our 1st is of course untouchable).

I even think we could get something for Clarkson if we retained salary, at least a better option then buying him out.


Kessel to Islanders with salary retained for their 1st?
Phaneuf to his home town Edmonton with salary retained for their 1st?
Clarkson to Devils with salary retained for their 2nd?


Our prospect pool is bottom ranked for one reason, it lacks high end talent. We do have plenty of character guys for the bottom six/ bottom four and a couple with top six or top four potential but not much to rely on really. They say this draft class is rather week but I see a lot of high end players with leadership and character to could be part of changing he culture at the Leafs.

Stripping this club of it´s core and move forward with a new batch of young guys will not get us in to the playoffs next season, but honestly, do any one still believe this current lot can? The most interesting thing seem to be if Kessel can net 40.

 

[pooleboy]

Yea Kessel doesn't hit, So let's trade him. And you take you take a shot at Mats.

Just wow.

People in this town completely reward mediocure play, Sundin was no different. He floated, didn't backcheck and surprises surprises was traded to the Leafs. As i said in the OP star calibre players dont get traded and i feel the same way about Mats. If anything he screwed over this team without letting us trade him, then left for nothing (you know what we could have gotten from vancouver? Kesler+Burrows) Sundin should be thanking us the fans for his HOF inductee, he didn't win a single hart, rocket richard, stanley cup. I dont have a great memory on who is in the HOF but if someone who didn't win anything usually dont make the hall, Sundin is there because he was a Leaf for so long. Please enlighten me why I should be kissing this mans feet?

And it isn't that kessel just doesn't hit, he shys away from it, its a trickle down effect to our other players. If kessel isn't going into the corner and is making 8 mill a season why should kadri whose making 1 mill? if Phaneuf wont fight someone who is a star player on the other team, then why should other players compete hard and fight? Toews and Crosby players will hit, they dont shy away from contact, stop being content with mediocure and actually demand that we rebuild and actually build a successful team (one that starts with Connor McDavid, Rielly and Bernier as our core)

I want to point out that I do think Phaneuf and Kessel are good players, just not the main pieces and we currently have them both locked up long-term to insane cap hits and they wont lead us to a cup or anything. If Kessel was the 2nd offensive threat for a team than I think he would fluorish and that team would be very successful. For example if Kessel was on a line with Perry and Getzlaf i think kessel would be putting up 50/50+ seasons. If Phaneuf was the #2 guy I think he would fluorish. My main problem with Phaneuf is that he cant handle the puck, he wont go into the corner first... he will wait for the other player to get the puck and move it while he goes for a hit. We have them both as our top guys and what I am arguing in the op, is both of them were traded here, you dont trade star players (so that means Kessel and Phaneuf are flawed in one way or another).

Only way to get a Toews like player is through the draft. Teams will never traded those types of player, or if they do, come at kings ransom and then those players usually disappoint with the immense pressure. Also like I said before there is only 2 reasons that teams trade their players. 1) they want to leave. 2) they didn't win/ aren't good enough to stay. (u can prolly add 3 cant fit under the cap) There is something about playing for the team that draft u that is special, just like your first kiss (or hug for some of u on this site). You push yourself to play for that team.

Now i didn't say this in the OP but what I would do is bring in more 2-way players. If you look at how Boston is set up they have no "scorer" they have all good players who can play in both sides of the ice.They have no offensive first guys, I believe the major problem with the Leafs is that the forwards dont help out enough in the back end, they dont skate back hard enough, they break out to fast to try and get a quick chance. This kills the D because you have constant odd man rushes, bring in more 2-way players who know what it takes to play defence, kessel just skates around waiting for the puck... if you most expensive player isn't sacraficing, isnt doing everything to win why should any other player who isn't making as much? are his legs more important than anyone elses on the team? trickle down effect, you need to have strong leaders who will do anything it takes to win (if you want to see an example look at how Dave Bolland plays, he learned from the best and has it in him to get better and do everything to win.)

 

[pooleboy]

Around that time didn't JFJ want to do a rebuild, however he wasn't allowed to and was eventually fired during the 07-08 season. You said it yourself that the Leafs couldn't have traded anyone because Sundin, Tucker, McCabe, Kaberle, and Kubina all had those no trades. So I don't think the Leafs were trying to make the playoffs that season because after Fletcher took over he traded as many players as he could at the trade deadline for draft picks.

Yes JFJ wanted to rebuild, and if u look at his drafting record he would have done pretty well. However (and i said this in my op) inept management of MLSE had the "derp derp derp we need playoffs" mentality and it countiounsly burns them and they yet have to realize this. I realize that that year maybe coming last wasn't an option, but we gave those players those NTC, u only give CORE pieces NTC.... as i said like toews or crosby (only one of those guys who deserved a NTC was Sundin really....). OUR management gave them the NTC and i believe it was JFJ. Then fletcher came in and traded up for schenn (jvr is a decent trade off) but then we didn't tank out, we didn't even get top 5 where everyone wanted Brayden Schenn, if we bottomed out we could have gotten Tavares, or Duchenne not a decent player like Schenn a real elite player. Instead we still had those guys on NTC. Then we could have cleaned up the mess, started to rebuild (lets say those two years we learned and finally started bottoming out) we could have selected Seguin, Couterier, Mackinnon and Ekblad to go along with Rielly now there is a core, but instead we traded for kessel, traded for phaneuf, signed komi and beauch to as ive referenced it before "derp derp derp we need playoffs now" mentality burned us again as we selected a player who is good (kadri) but isn't elite and if you want to compete u need to draft these elite player.

I wanted to have a lockout last season (only for the leafs benefit, i love watching hockey) because i knew toronto would have gotten at worst a top 10 pick maybe even top 5, we could have selected at worst Monahan and had a decent core, but again the "derp derp derp we need playoffs" burned us again, although if we did get the #1 pick and drafted Mackinnon we would have been set for the next 10+ years (just like if we got McDavid).

This inept, incompetent MLSE management team is dumb, keep drinking the kool-aid leaf fans, until they do a proper rebuild they will have nowehere close to a stanley cup contending team.

* Note--> i only believe this team will be a cup contending team with this core is if Rielly becomes that Drew Doughty presence, I believe he will be, but it will still be tough because we still have everyone elses hamie downs as our core.
*Note - We actually drafted Rielly,
*note- u can only get star, elite talent through the draft aka Rielly, through trades u only get players that other teams didn't think they could win with (kessel)