Sweden is not a hockey power anymore

[Hockeyfrilla]

Defense

#3 Hedman 11+39 = 50 points
#13 Dahlin 8+25 = 33 points
#28 Andersson 2025 = 27 points
#28 EK 8+18 = 26 points
#32 Klingberg 1+25 = 26 points

#27 Heiskanen 4+23 = 27 points
#81 Lindell 3+12 = 15 points

 

[Svedu]

Just took a quick look at stats this NHL-season, its not like Finland is crushing Sweden when it comes to forwards point-wise, far from it I would say

Finland
#9 Rantanen - 26+32 = 58 points
#17 Sebastian Aho 21+30 = 51 points
#52 Aleksander Barkov 22+20 = 42 points
#57 Roope Hintz 21+20 41 points
#64 Mikael Granlund 7+32 = 39 points

Sweden
#21 Mika Zibanejad 19+31 = 50 points
#25 Gabriel Landeskog 23+26 = 49 points
#27 Elias Lindholm 22+26 = 48 points
#32 William Nylander 19+28 = 47 points
#51 Jesper Bratt 14+29 = 43 points
#56 Filip Forsberg 25+16 = 41 points

Neither did they do that 2019 and look how it went? Points isn't everything. I would pick Anton Lundell before a lot of your players and I would see him as more important than Mikael Granlund in our team. That's my point. Majority of Swedish fans in here seem to believe it's as simple as just watching NHL´ers stats and draw simple conclusions. Not analyzing what the individuals strengths-weaknesses are, the chemistry and fit in an potential roster etc etc.

 

[Svedu]

If we compare forward groups and ask neutral fans I’m sure Sweden would get at least 70% of the votes. And that’s just forward groups. 5 finns would make team Sweden and that’s counting Saros as a backup. Not more.

Lmao! Troll-warning.

 

[Svedu]

Defense

#3 Hedman 11+39 = 50 points
#13 Dahlin 8+25 = 33 points
#28 Andersson 2025 = 27 points
#28 EK 8+18 = 26 points
#32 Klingberg 1+25 = 26 points

#27 Heiskanen 4+23 = 27 points
#81 Lindell 3+12 = 15 points

What about 2019? What did those stats give you back then? How did you guys do 2021? Oh...

 

[AB13]

Lmao! Troll-warning.

Lets ask the people. A balanced, fair combined forward group could be

Landeskog - Barkov - Rantanen
Laine - Bäckström - Nylander
Pettersson - Zibanejad - Forsberg
Bratt - Aho - Lindholm

Nothing controversial there right? Roll four lines equally.

 

[AB13]

What about 2019? What did those stats give you back then? How did you guys do 2021? Oh...

Second rate tournaments when we missed every team missed most of their best players don’t affect the discussion here. And if you want to look at 2019 you can’t discount 2017 or 2018.

 

[Svedu]

Lets ask the people. A balanced, fair combined forward group could be

Landeskog - Barkov - Rantanen
Laine - Bäckström - Nylander
Pettersson - Zibanejad - Forsberg
Bratt - Aho - Lindholm

Nothing controversial there right? Roll four lines equally.

I would pick Lundell before an old Bäckström and Bratt. I would pick Hintz before Bratt as well, without blinking.
Personally I would pick Teräväinen before Forsberg and Pettersson. I think Teräväinen is simply better than EP. Forsberg is questionable but I like Teräväinens broader repertoire a bit more, personal preference I guess.

 

[Svedu]

Second rate tournaments when we missed every team missed most of their best players don’t affect the discussion here. And if you want to look at 2019 you can’t discount 2017 or 2018.

Do you live in the past now? Or is it that you just need to decide what's relevant all the time? You can't be wrong about anything, is that the real problem here?

 

[Deas]

One top defenseman perhaps, but overall still better than you no matter if you have your A-squad or C-squad. 2019 , 2021 and this year olympics and the WJC´´s shows exactly that.
The only thing you fans have going now are poor excuses and claimings that you would be the nation after Canada or Canada and Russia because of your defenders. Like defenders would suddenly be more important than both goalies and centers combined. Your top6 forwards are the worst out of the top5 nations. You don't seem to have a game winning play at any level at this very moment.
Are Sweden the best in Europe in football because of 94 WC´s as well?
You are a hockey power but you are not better than any of those top5 nations, not even close. Hockey is not that big and football is getting bigger in Sweden each day. I wouldn't be so overly confident because that would only hit you back in the future when you recognize the fact that you won't get any gold medals if you insist on telling yourselves you are always the best no matter what. Especially when you aren't. Just think about it.

I get the impression you are a bit all over the place, with strange evaluation of your arguments. Again, non best on best-tournaments are poor measurements. Sweden has about 100 players in the NHL compared to Finland's 60, so of course European depth should be worse. Also, your level of nationalism is way higher (noticeable in the corporate world as well) so I think you care alot more about the b and c tournaments than Swedes do (generalization of course, but there are some clear indications of it in my opinion).

And if do put value on the b tournaments it's a bit of a convenient decision by you that emphasis on 2017 and 18 means "living in the past" while 2019 is relevant. So there's a magic barrier between the relevance making 4-5 years "the past" but 3 years back is interesting?

Looking at how things stand today forwards and goalies are evenly matched. Defense is far, far and away in favor of team Sweden. If a joint team is rostered one, one, Finnish D-man makes the team.

Approximate depth charts.

Sweden

Landeskog - Zibanejad - Nylander
Forsberg - Lindholm - Pettersson
Burakovsky - Backstrom - Raymond
Kempe - Backlund - Bratt
Holtz, Olofsson, Arvidsson, Asplund, Lundstrom, Rakell

Hedman - Klingberg
Karlsson - Ekholm
Dahlin - Lindholm
Brodin, Kylington, Andersson, OEL

Markstrom
Lehner
Gustavsson

Finland

Laine - Barkov - Rantanen
Teravainen - Aho - Granlund
Kapanen - Hintz - Puljujarvi
Armia - Lundell - Donskoi
Kakko, Kapanen, Kotkaniemi, Tolvanen, Maccelli, Kemell

Heiskanen - Lindell
Ristolainen - Vatanen
Jokiharju - Heinola
Valimaki, Laaksonen, Lehtonen, Maatta

Saros
Kahkonen

 

[AB13]

I would pick Lundell before an old Bäckström and Bratt. I would pick Hintz before Bratt as well, without blinking.
Personally I would pick Teräväinen before Forsberg and Pettersson. I think Teräväinen is simply better than EP. Forsberg is questionable but I like Teräväinens broader repertoar a bit more, personal preference I guess.

Pettersson and Laine have the most skill on the team. I wouldn’t consider leaving any of them off despite both players being streaky and inconsistent.

I don’t think Teraväinen is as good as Forsberg or any winger on the team honestly. He has less goal threat and skill than every winger on the team in my opinion, and he is weaker defensively. Teraväinen is good though but I’m not sure if I would take him over Raymond if looking at snubs. Likes of Bratt are producing better on a much worse team (even though I think getting hung up on stats is stupid).

I can accept Hintz. I don’t rate him particularly highly myself, but I can see an argument for him.

 

[Deas]

I think a rank of all best on best roster strengths look like this:

Canada
USA
Russia
Sweden
Finland
Czech Republic
Germany
Switzerland
Slovakia

 

[AB13]

I think a rank of all best on best roster strengths look like this:

Canada
USA
Russia
Sweden
Finland
Czech Republic
Germany
Switzerland
Slovakia

Switzerland are definately better than Germany without a shadow of a doubt and I do not think it is particularly close actually. They have way better depth and can ice a top 6 of all good NHL players. I would take Sweden over Russia, otherwise agree with the list.

 

[Svedu]

I get the impression you are a bit all over the place, with strange evaluation of your arguments. Again, non best on best-tournaments are poor measurements. Sweden has about 100 players in the NHL compared to Finland's 60, so of course European depth should be worse. Also, your level of nationalism is way higher (noticeable in the corporate world as well) so I think you care alot more about the b and c tournaments than Swedes do (generalization of course, but there are some clear indications of it in my opinion).

Forwards and goalies are evenly matched. Defense is far and away in favor of team Sweden.

Approximate depth charts.

Sweden

Landeskog - Zibanejad - Nylander
Forsberg - Lindholm - Pettersson
Burakovsky - Backstrom - Raymond
Kempe - Backlund - Bratt
Holtz, Olofsson, Arvidsson, Asplund, Lundstrom, Rakell

Hedman - Klingberg
Karlsson - Ekholm
Dahlin - Lindholm
Brodin, Kylington, Andersson, OEL

Markstrom
Lehner
Gustavsson

Finland

Laine - Barkov - Rantanen
Teravainen - Aho - Granlund
Kapanen - Hintz - Puljujarvi
Armia - Lundell - Donskoi
Kakko, Kapanen, Kotkaniemi, Tolvanen, Maccelli, Kemell

Heiskanen - Lindell
Ristolainen - Vatanen
Jokiharju - Heinola
Valimaki, Laaksonen, Lehtonen, Maatta

Saros
Kahkonen

Laine with a playmaking center is the best scoring winger together with Rantanen of all these wingers. I would pick both Laine and Rantanen before Landeskog and Nylander if I knew that Barkov or Aho would center that line.
Lundell is already better than Backlund and not only that, Lundell would be the best fourth center after perhaps Canadas alternative.
Donskoi wouldn't make it. Armia could be losing his fourth line place and still, I would prefer him as fourth liner before Kempe every single day.
Kapanen may not look like much for the world but in a Jalonen system, in the BP? He would be better than his stats show. Just like Hagelin once were a very important part of Pittsburgh without being the best player out there.

Saros is the best goalie in my opinion. Husso, Kähkönen, Luukkonen are all on the same level as both Lehner and Gustavsson, if not even better. Lankinen is always good in Leijonat as well.


Klingberg is overrated as hell. Bad defensively. Ekholm is streaky in my opinion. Good sometimes and others the worst player on ice.
Also, i wouldn't be surprised if Niemelä surpasses Ristolainen in one year and I actually don't believe Ristolainen would even take a spot in our roster. Jokiharju- underrated.
You do strike me as a point watcher, why? Laaksonen and Ristolainen can be productive but if you watch D´s like Salo and Vaakanainen with a sound overall game you would understand that they would probably suit a team better and especially in Jalonens system. But I guess you've never seen them played but still you insist of having an opinion...
Vatanen could also be replaced.
Again, it's about roles. Heinola is really talented but if he wouldn't be good enough for top4 he wouldn't take a spot, simple as that. Like have you ever seen him play, do you know what he's good or bad at? My god damn point, a lot of swedes think it's black or white. If a D is a decent point producer he's just good no matter what. That's not how it really is, especially in a championship. How come Klingberg and Erik Karlsson never been that close winning a Stanley? Ekholm has played in Nashville who were a contender for a long time etc.

Let me give you the best example on how one-sided you thoughts really are with comparing Swedish players. I would pick a prime Oduya before Klingberg in my team or why not even Dahlin. That guy could defend and I want to claim that's just as important as a defenders offensive abilities.
You havent even mentioned Hakanpää and that says it all really. A defender like him and perhaps even Määttä won't look like anything special for the typical Swedish fan. But when you deep dive you would understand that they would be good defensively and fill their roles superbly.
That's my freaking point here. Do you want every defender to play like John Klingberg? I wouldn't even want him in my team. I would probably pick Kylington before him.

 

[Svedu]

I think a rank of all best on best roster strengths look like this:

Canada
USA
Russia
Sweden
Finland
Czech Republic
Germany
Switzerland
Slovakia

Simply incorrect.

 

[karhukissa]

We can rank rosters all we want. Fact is that Finland has got the most medals during recent years.

Why? Because Finland's coaching is the best. Our game system gives us an edge against any country. So for example Russia or Sweden to be a favourite, they really need to have a much, much stronger team.

We can get into subjective things and semantics, but basically:
Canada
USA
Russia/Sweden/Finland

The talent difference between Russia, Sweden and Finland is so small that there is no clear favourite.

 

[LEAFSANDBILLSFAN]

I´m sure Finland would beat you in a best-on-best. Go rewatch your roster 2019 and then come back and think again.
Typical Swedish hockey fan behavior. Nothing matters when you are not fighting for the gold and you can't even show the courtesy without offering us others your poor excuses time after time.

Last but not least, are you kidding me? Have you forgot about Czech Republic 1998 in Nagano? How are we supposed to take you serious?

First off im Canadian.

Second off I said last 20 years. Subtract 20 from 2022 and you get 2002. 4 years ahead of 1998.

Third off I have mad respect for Finnish hockey. They will eventually win a best on best tournament and I'll be cheering them on when they do (as long as they're not playing Canada). I also have respect for Swedish hockey and I'm not contributing to the Swedish bash fest. I just don't put much stock in the last two Olympics. I'm happy Finland won Gold. I'd be happy if Canada did as well. That's my feelings. Never said Finnish fans are not allowed theirs.

 

[AB13]

We can rank rosters all we want. Fact is that Finland has got the most medals during recent years.

Why? Because Finland's coaching is the best. Our game system gives us an edge against any country. So for example Russia or Sweden to be a favourite, they really need to have a much, much stronger team.

We can get into subjective things and semantics, but basically:
Canada
USA
Russia/Sweden/Finland

The talent difference between Russia, Sweden and Finland is so small that there is no clear favourite.

Finland have by far the best coaching at the WC level tournaments without the best players, I agree. And coaching is important. I think Finland could compete with Sweden and Russia for sure, but that is due to coaching making up for what I perceive to be considerably less talent. There is also no guarantee that star offensive players would buy into a defensive trap-based system and there is also no guarantee that their offensive strenghts wouldn’t be limited by playing under Jalonen.

 

[Deas]

Laine with a playmaking center is the best scoring winger together with Rantanen of all these wingers. I would pick both Laine and Rantanen before Landeskog and Nylander if I knew that Barkov or Aho would center that line.
Lundell is already better than Backlund and not only that, Lundell would be the best fourth center after perhaps Canadas alternative.
Donskoi wouldn't make it. Armia could be losing his fourth line place and still, I would prefer him as fourth liner before Kempe every single day.
Kapanen may not look like much for the world but in a Jalonen system, in the BP? He would be better than his stats show. Just like Hagelin once were a very important part of Pittsburgh without being the best player out there.

Saros is the best goalie in my opinion. Husso, Kähkönen, Luukkonen are all on the same level as both Lehner and Gustavsson, if not even better. Lankinen is always good in Leijonat as well.


Klingberg is overrated as hell. Bad defensively. Ekholm is streaky in my opinion. Good sometimes and others the worst player on ice.
Also, i wouldn't be surprised if Niemelä surpasses Ristolainen in one year and I actually don't believe Ristolainen would even take a spot in our roster. Jokiharju- underrated.
You do strike me as a point watcher, why? Laaksonen and Ristolainen can be productive but if you watch D´s like Salo and Vaakanainen with a sound overall game you would understand that they would probably suit a team better and especially in Jalonens system. But I guess you've never seen them played but still you insist of having an opinion...
Vatanen could also be replaced.
Again, it's about roles. Heinola is really talented but if he wouldn't be good enough for top4 he wouldn't take a spot, simple as that.
You havent even mentioned Hakanpää and that says it all really. A defender like him and perhaps even Määttä won't look like anything special for the typical Swedish fan. But when you deep dive you would understand that they would be good defensively and fill their roles superbly.
That's my freaking point here. Do you want every defender to play like John Klingberg? I wouldn't even want him in my team. I would probably pick Kylington before him.

You go into cherry picking details and talk about potential success in a specific role. That's speculative, and not relevant in a ranking of current roster-strength. And really, if Määtä is argument you consider in your favor in a best on best context that's some thin ice.

There is certainly several exiting Finnish D-prospects. With a best case development outcome there you'd have a very good 2026 best on best-team.

 

[Deas]

Switzerland are definately better than Germany without a shadow of a doubt and I do not think it is particularly close actually. They have way better depth and can ice a top 6 of all good NHL players. I would take Sweden over Russia, otherwise agree with the list.

I had Switzerland over Germany when I did this last summer but swaped them now. The below is very much just paper scouted depth charts, but is it really that uneven?


Germany

Stutzle - Draisaitl - Peterka
Reichel - Sturm - Kahun
Michaelis - Elias - Bokk
Kuhnackl - Bergmann - Rieder
Napravnik, Plachta, Fischbuch, Norbels, Eisenschmid, Wiederer

Seider - Gnyp
Holzer - Gawanke
Muller - Abeltshauser

Grubauer
Greiss
Bruckman

Switzerland

Meier - Hischier - Fiala
Niederreiter - Suter - Hoffman
Baertschi - Haas - Kurashev
Malgin

Josi - Sbisa
Moser - Siegenthaler
Kukan - Weber
Muller, Berni, Geisser

Senn

 

[AB13]

You go into cherry picking details and talk about potential success in a specific role. That's speculative, and not relevant in a ranking of current roster-strength.

Their is certainly several exiting Finnish D-prospects. With a best case development outcome there you'd have a very good 2026 best on best-team.

I mean they still don’t have the D-prospects to compare themselves to Sweden, Canada or USA in that aspect. Sweden have
Dahlin
Boqvist
Sandin
Lundqvist
Broberg
Söderström
Björnfot
Edvinsson

All drafted in the first round of the last three drafts.

 

[Svedu]

Finland have by far the best coaching at the WC level tournaments without the best players, I agree. And coaching is important. I think Finland could compete with Sweden and Russia for sure, but that is due to coaching making up for what I perceive to be considerably less talent. There is also no guarantee that star offensive players would buy into a defensive trap-based system and there is also no guarantee that their offensive strenghts wouldn’t be limited by playing under Jalonen.

Writing "Considerably less talent" is just false. You make it impossible to take you serious.

 

[AB13]

I had Switzerland over Germany when I did this last summer but swaped them now. The below is very much just paper scouted depth charts, but is it really that uneven?


Germany

Stutzle - Draisaitl - Peterka
Reichel - Sturm - Kahun
Michaelis - Elias - Bokk
Kuhnackl - Bergmann - Rieder
Napravnik, Plachta, Fischbuch, Norbels, Eisenschmid, Wiederer

Seider - Gnyp
Holzer - Gawanke
Muller - Abeltshauser

Grubauer
Greiss
Bruckman

Switzerland

Meier - Hischier - Fiala
Niederreiter - Suter - Hoffman
Baertschi - Haas - Kurashev
Malgin

Josi - Sbisa
Moser - Siegenthaler
Kukan - Weber
Muller, Berni, Geisser

Senn

At the moment I think Switzerland clearly have Germany beat. Might be overexagerrating a bit though. The likes of Reichel developing can probably make up that difference quite soon and I do think both Reichel and Peterka could be solid NHL contributors today with the right opportunity. Right now I think Switzerland have four of the 5 best forwards and 4 of the 5 best defencemen.

 

[Svedu]

I mean they still don’t have the D-prospects to compare themselves to Sweden, Canada or USA in that aspect. Sweden have
Dahlin
Boqvist
Sandin
Lundqvist
Broberg
Söderström
Björnfot
Edvinsson

All drafted in the first round of the last three drafts.

And you don´t have anyone close to Lundell, Barkov nor Aho. Or Rantanen either... These guys are still young enough. Like just tell me one Swedish center who's on Lundells level among your prospects? He's already better than EP and I promise you that a big majority of NHL coaches would pick him before EP.
Don´t get me started about Aho or Barkov.

 

[AB13]

Writing "Considerably less talent" is just false. You make it impossible to take you serious.

It’s my opinion. Defencemen matter.

 

[karhukissa]

Finland have by far the best coaching at the WC level tournaments without the best players, I agree. And coaching is important. I think Finland could compete with Sweden and Russia for sure, but that is due to coaching making up for what I perceive to be considerably less talent. There is also no guarantee that star offensive players would buy into a defensive trap-based system and there is also no guarantee that their offensive strenghts wouldn’t be limited by playing under Jalonen.

But it's not trap based system or defensive system, Jalonen hockey = puck control hockey. It's molded and modified based on players and roster he has. For example last couple of WHC, we had basically Liiga rosters on steroids so obviously you need to play smart and not just attack attack.

Pretty much all finnish stars have played under Jalonen. For example 2016 WJC team which was dominant, literally beat Canada and every country with pure attacking game with Laine, Aho, Rantanen, Pulju, Hintz etc.

Jalonen is a genious and it's not just one way of playing hockey. It's extremely versatile structure that all of our players know by heart now, it's nothing that NHL players have to buy. They all know how it works. You can give our best on best team one day and they play like a machine.

World cup was different because of Marjamäki was a bad coach and our star players being too young.