Post-Game Talk (GBU): Still Not Winnin' for MacKinnon

[Karate Johnson*]

On the rebuild argument.

Where does having the highest real money payroll in the league factor in.


We don't just suck, we suck with style.

Has a team with the highest payroll ever finished dead last in any other sport? Redskins?

 

[BCS]

I want a GM with foresight.


Here's the deal, bro.... I expect this team to compete for Stanley Cups.

That's the expectation.

So when the don't win a playoff series in 6 years, and are in last place they aren't doing a good job.


You can create all the silly arguments you want. There is a very real scoreboard to judge sports GM's, coaches, and players on....


I don't care about your Internet hockey scoreboard where hypothetical good drafting and good trades over an Infinate timeline are acceptable.

Last place. That's how good Regier is.

The Sabres spend nearly $5 million more in real dollars than anyone else (citation: http://www.hockeybuzz.com/cap-central/index.php) and the only team behind them in the standings is Columbus, a perennial laughingstock.

 

[EichHart]

The Sabres spend nearly $5 million more in real dollars than anyone else (citation: http://www.hockeybuzz.com/cap-central/index.php) and the only team behind them in the standings is Columbus, a perennial laughingstock.

DANGGGGGGGGGGGGG that is ROUGH!!

 

[Royisgone]

Show of hands.

Who cares what Luke Adam did on the WJC team?

Adam is a bust of a draft pick, period.

Suggesting otherwise is stupid.

 

[Jame]

Bad management is bad management.

And frankly thats an incredibly lame counterpoint.

Posters are so hung up on the Pens as a blueprint that they ignore the fact that they are the exception. As in a team with top picks several years in a row. The also ignore the fact that the reason they got Crosby was not due to being rewarded for a bad season. There was no season. They got Crosby because there was a lockout the season before Crosby could be drafted and the Pens won the lottery for him.

Most of the post lockout CUp winners were built through strong drafting , good trades and good UFA signings. Not from tanking and having several bad seasons in a row. Most teams that have been having bad season post lockout are still having them.

Chicago and LA both had multiple/consecutive top 5 picks...

lots of the top teams went through consecutive bad seasons to build a winner...

 

[Jame]

the spending is the result of exactly what I said 2 years ago... the timing of Pegula's purchase, leading to a feel good run to the playoffs, set the franchise back a half decade minimum.

it created belief

 

[Chainshot]

Bad management is bad management.

And frankly thats an incredibly lame counterpoint.

Posters are so hung up on the Pens as a blueprint that they ignore the fact that they are the exception. As in a team with top picks several years in a row. The also ignore the fact that the reason they got Crosby was not due to being rewarded for a bad season. There was no season. They got Crosby because there was a lockout the season before Crosby could be drafted and the Pens won the lottery for him.

Most of the post lockout CUp winners were built through strong drafting , good trades and good UFA signings. Not from tanking and having several bad seasons in a row. Most teams that have been having bad season post lockout are still having them.

Yet almost all Cup-winning teams have either the talent drafted at the top-end of the draft or the talent acquired with players drafted at the top end of the draft. The exceptions in 20-odd years were the Bruins who arguably are the best team at finding key UFA talent to augment their drafting/development since the Kessel and Thornton trades didn't really have a huge impact on their roster for that run. The other, the '08 Wings who still had players who developed underneath guys like Yzerman (former 3rd overall). Everyone else has had that top-end draft talent or the spoils from trading said talent.

 

[Jame]

Yet almost all Cup-winning teams have either the talent drafted at the top-end of the draft or the talent acquired with players drafted at the top end of the draft. The exceptions in 20-odd years were the Bruins who arguably are the best team at finding key UFA talent to augment their drafting/development since the Kessel and Thornton trades didn't really have a huge impact on their roster for that run. The other, the '08 Wings who still had players who developed underneath guys like Yzerman (former 3rd overall). Everyone else has had that top-end draft talent or the spoils from trading said talent.

and if we embraced what was so obvious when pegula bought the team... maybe we have Couturier, Galchenyuk, and Mackinnon :seriously:

 

[Karate Johnson*]

the spending is the result of exactly what I said 2 years ago... the timing of Pegula's purchase, leading to a feel good run to the playoffs, set the franchise back a half decade minimum.

it created belief

Totally agree.


The run killed us, because it was a fluke.

But it made it impossible to get to of the regime we had and start fresh....

Instead of doing it right he went all in with a flawed system.

Now, we can fix it. Lotta money coming off the books in the next two years. And 2 buy outs.


I understand nobody wants to suck, but I want nothing to do with resigning guys who have been losers here since 2007. Trade who you can, let the rest walk.

Buy out Leino, and Staffor if you can't trade him.

 

[Moskau]

No one is saying get Crosby or to tank 4 seasons in a row like Edmonton.

I honestly feel like even just MacKinnon and a 5-10 pick next year would be enough to set this team up for a few years at the top. I'm just saying there's a lot of dead weight on this team that needs to go and everyone should be looked at.

But does anyone honestly think this team can be a contender in less than 2-3 seasons? Unless you feel Pominville will sign the first hometown discount in Buffalo Sabres history then you look at dumping him now for players that will be useful in 2-3 years. You don't trade him for players to help the team now but will also be gone in 2015. That makes little sense.

 

[Karate Johnson*]

No one is saying get Crosby or to tank 4 seasons in a row like Edmonton.

I honestly feel like even just MacKinnon and a 5-10 pick next year would be enough to set this team up for a few years at the top. I'm just saying there's a lot of dead weight on this team that needs to go and everyone should be looked at.

But does anyone honestly think this team can be a contender in less than 2-3 seasons? Unless you feel Pominville will sign the first hometown discount in Buffalo Sabres history then you look at dumping him now for players that will be useful in 2-3 years. You don't trade him for players to help the team now but will also be gone in 2015. That makes little sense.

I'm saying it.... Get Crosby


Seriously though. How much "tanking" do we have to do?

We're last.

We aren't making the playoffs.. We would have to play at like a 120pt/season pace to get in.


I'm not saying we have to suck next year even... But we are better off getting 30th place rather than 22nd this year.

 

[Daz28]

Adam is a bust of a draft pick, period.

Suggesting otherwise is stupid.

I'm not sure what his value is, and truthfully, only a few people know why he went boom to bust at the drop of a hat. Maybe he was Sulzer jr, and as soon as you knew what he was capable of physically, you could beat him. Maybe he lost a g/f, or hurt his ankle and never told anyone. Who knows. The thing is his value isn't bust, because he has proven something. He's still a deal sweetener at best, tho.

 

[NotABadPeriod]

Chicago and LA both had multiple/consecutive top 5 picks...

lots of the top teams went through consecutive bad seasons to build a winner...

But it is no guarantee. Otherwise the Blue Jackets/Thrashers/Islanders/etc. would have turned their entire franchises around.

It's not just picking high. It's getting the pieces around them too. Chicago didn't just have Kane and Toews. They got Hossa and Campbell, they developed Keith and Seabrook, etc. LA didn't just get Schenn (Richards)/Hickey/Doughty, they made the trade for JJ (which they turned into Carter), developed Kopitar (wasn't top 10 pick) and Brown, signed Stoll, Mitchell, etc.

You can get absolute star players in the draft...Thrashers got Kovalchuk and Heatley (and Stefan, but we'll ignore that)...but for as talented as they were, they got Atlanta absolutely nowhere. A few top picks can go a long way, but relying solely on getting high draft picks is an easy way to continue to be mediocre at best, horrible at worst.

 

[Karate Johnson*]

I'm not sure what his value is, and truthfully, only a few people know why he went boom to bust at the drop of a hat. Maybe he was Sulzer jr, and as soon as you knew what he was capable of physically, you could beat him. Maybe he lost a g/f, or hurt his ankle and never told anyone. Who knows. The thing is his value isn't bust, because he has proven something. He's still a deal sweetener at best, tho.

Adams value is that of a streaky, godawfully slow AHL player.


He'll never make it in the NHL in any roll... He's entirely to slow.

 

[Chainshot]

and if we embraced what was so obvious when pegula bought the team... maybe we have Couturier, Galchenyuk, and Mackinnon :seriously:

Yep. Tear down and build, not patch. They need a high-end talent injection and it's clear other teams have figured out that they won't lose their talent to free agency so the avenues are trade and draft.

Yes, there are teams that flounder terribly. And there is no guarantee that Buffalo won't go the same way as Columbus (or say, the Thrashers pre-move). However, they do have a passionate owner who has people in executive roles who have been part of being terrible to get better. And I don't see those people allowing things to be as directionless and indecisive as the Jackets or Thrashers were for so long which gives me some hope that they could do a powerful job of building for the future. It's going to suck -- especially for those of us with season tickets -- but there is no other way to put lipstick on this ****-wallowing pig of a roster. It's time.

 

[Jame]

But it is no guarantee. Otherwise the Blue Jackets/Thrashers/Islanders/etc. would have turned their entire franchises around.

of course not. they have to pick the right guys... supplement the youth with quality leadership. build the roster properly.

but, in the situation they are presently in... it's absolutely the best path for them to bottom out and rebuild. much better than the calgary flames route they've been pursuing the last half decade.

t's not just picking high. It's getting the pieces around them too. Chicago didn't just have Kane and Toews. They got Hossa and Campbell, they developed Keith and Seabrook, etc. LA didn't just get Schenn (Richards)/Hickey/Doughty, they made the trade for JJ (which they turned into Carter), developed Kopitar (wasn't top 10 pick) and Brown, signed Stoll, Mitchell, etc.

You can get absolute star players in the draft...Thrashers got Kovalchuk and Heatley (and Stefan, but we'll ignore that)...but for as talented as they were, they got Atlanta absolutely nowhere. A few top picks can go a long way, but relying solely on getting high draft picks is an easy way to continue to be mediocre at best, horrible at worst.

completely agree.

it's about the current buffalo sabres, and the best path to contendership. rebuild is the only choice. it's not a guaranteed fix. but it's the right path

 

[Jame]

Yep. Tear down and build, not patch. They need a high-end talent injection and it's clear other teams have figured out that they won't lose their talent to free agency so the avenues are trade and draft.

Yes, there are teams that flounder terribly. And there is no guarantee that Buffalo won't go the same way as Columbus (or say, the Thrashers pre-move). However, they do have a passionate owner who has people in executive roles who have been part of being terrible to get better. And I don't see those people allowing things to be as directionless and indecisive as the Jackets or Thrashers were for so long which gives me some hope that they could do a powerful job of building for the future. It's going to suck -- especially for those of us with season tickets -- but there is no other way to put lipstick on this ****-wallowing pig of a roster. It's time.

yup yup

 

[1972]

and if we embraced what was so obvious when pegula bought the team... maybe we have Couturier, Galchenyuk, :seriously:

Armia, Grigorenko and Girgensons looks to be a pretty good haul over the couple years, if you add MacKinnon to that I think you are in pretty good shape moving foward.

I want a rebuild I just have no interest in a EDM style of rebuild.

 

[Karate Johnson*]

Rebuild might not even be a choice?

Why would we get any better? We don't even have a coach.

 

[Moskau]

But it is no guarantee. Otherwise the Blue Jackets/Thrashers/Islanders/etc. would have turned their entire franchises around.

It's not just picking high. It's getting the pieces around them too. Chicago didn't just have Kane and Toews. They got Hossa and Campbell, they developed Keith and Seabrook, etc. LA didn't just get Schenn (Richards)/Hickey/Doughty, they made the trade for JJ (which they turned into Carter), developed Kopitar (wasn't top 10 pick) and Brown, signed Stoll, Mitchell, etc.

You can get absolute star players in the draft...Thrashers got Kovalchuk and Heatley (and Stefan, but we'll ignore that)...but for as talented as they were, they got Atlanta absolutely nowhere. A few top picks can go a long way, but relying solely on getting high draft picks is an easy way to continue to be mediocre at best, horrible at worst.

But you can see that if you DO surround those high picks with players it is almost a guarantee you will at the very least have a contender or annual playoff team.

People may hate Regier and even I want him gone now but at the very least he is worlds better than anything the Blue Jackets/Islanders or Thrashers had. Even Lombardi who was considered a terrible GM with other organizations was able to get it done.

More than anything your point illustrates how terribly run those three organizations are (or were). The fact that they've sucked for over a decade means they're terrible at more than just drafting. I don't think we will have to worry about that.

 

[Moskau]

And before anyone brings up Washington... George McPhee is on an entire different planet. He's a clown.

 

[Karate Johnson*]

Armia, Grigorenko and Girgensons looks to be a pretty good haul over the couple years, if you add MacKinnon to that I think you are in pretty good shape moving foward.

I want a rebuild I just have no interest in a EDM, NYI, or CBJ style of rebuild.

The EDM, NYI and CBJ style
Rebuild is doing everything wrong.

Those teams would have been just as bad without "rebuilding"

They just made horrible decisions. CBJ signed like 3 "Leinos".

If we tank for 3 years, get 3 stars, and then make a ton of bad decisions we will continue to suck.

If we middle, get 1 star, an make a ton of bad decisions we will also suck.


Simply being bad for a period of time isn't a guarantee... But it's a start.

 

[Chainshot]

But it is no guarantee. Otherwise the Blue Jackets/Thrashers/Islanders/etc. would have turned their entire franchises around.

It's not just picking high. It's getting the pieces around them too. Chicago didn't just have Kane and Toews. They got Hossa and Campbell, they developed Keith and Seabrook, etc. LA didn't just get Schenn (Richards)/Hickey/Doughty, they made the trade for JJ (which they turned into Carter), developed Kopitar (wasn't top 10 pick) and Brown, signed Stoll, Mitchell, etc.

You can get absolute star players in the draft...Thrashers got Kovalchuk and Heatley (and Stefan, but we'll ignore that)...but for as talented as they were, they got Atlanta absolutely nowhere. A few top picks can go a long way, but relying solely on getting high draft picks is an easy way to continue to be mediocre at best, horrible at worst.

It is not just about picking high. But simply waiting for Buffalo to develop their own version of Seabrook or to judiciously/economically sign a player like Stoll while they do not have the high-end talent to compete at the level of the perennial Cup contenders is going to be akin to the '80's all over again -- years of middling opportunity and tepid at best results.

 

[Jame]

Armia, Grigorenko and Girgensons looks to be a pretty good haul over the couple years, if you add MacKinnon to that I think you are in pretty good shape moving foward.

I want a rebuild I just have no interest in a EDM, NYI, or CBJ style of rebuild.

no one has an interest in a failed rebuild
just like no one wanted our failed retools to be the Calgary style

 

[Daz28]

No one is saying get Crosby or to tank 4 seasons in a row like Edmonton.

I honestly feel like even just MacKinnon and a 5-10 pick next year would be enough to set this team up for a few years at the top. I'm just saying there's a lot of dead weight on this team that needs to go and everyone should be looked at.

But does anyone honestly think this team can be a contender in less than 2-3 seasons? Unless you feel Pominville will sign the first hometown discount in Buffalo Sabres history then you look at dumping him now for players that will be useful in 2-3 years. You don't trade him for players to help the team now but will also be gone in 2015. That makes little sense.

Players we can right now actually feel real good about moving forward: VHP, Miller, Ehrhoff. I could name Sekera, Otter, but I'd be going further than I need to. The'yre not the answer to anything. The good is we have a top line, the bad, that's it. Just a goalie with a #2 D man in front of him, besides that. Ennis and Foligno won't be getting a center in Grigo any time soon, but Armia and Girgs are possibilities as well down the road. So it boils down to defense. The bad: PIT and PHI are in the battle for every d-man the west looks to trade. We are lucky that Hoff, Drej, and Tyler are our only 3 guys signed, but we'll have little to spend if we don't buy out Leino. I think maybe 3 well plotted out defensive moves in the next 3 years might be the answer. k/endrantandwot