Post-Game Talk (GBU): Still Not Winnin' for MacKinnon

[joshjull]

Yet almost all Cup-winning teams have either the talent drafted at the top-end of the draft or the talent acquired with players drafted at the top end of the draft. The exceptions in 20-odd years were the Bruins who arguably are the best team at finding key UFA talent to augment their drafting/development since the Kessel and Thornton trades didn't really have a huge impact on their roster for that run. The other, the '08 Wings who still had players who developed underneath guys like Yzerman (former 3rd overall). Everyone else has had that top-end draft talent or the spoils from trading said talent.

I know you need the talent. My point was losing for several years is viewed by some on here as a guarantee of future success. Its far from it.

It also massively oversimplifies how successful teams are built.

The advantage we were supposed to get from Pegula was to be in on the ways other teams have aded that top talent besides the draft, via trade or free agency. But with risk adverse Darcy that will never be the case. He needs to be willing to overpay to get some of the needed pieces. I can't ever see him doing that with his obsession with value.

 

[Jame]

I know you need the talent. My point was losing for several years is viewed by some on here as a guarantee of future success. Its far from it.

It also massively oversimplifies how successful teams are built.

The advantage we were supposed to get from Pegula was to be in on the ways other teams have aded that top talent besides the draft, via trade or free agency. But with risk adverse Darcy that will never be the case. He needs to be willing to overpay to get some of the needed pieces. I can't ever see him doing that with his obsession with value.

nobody. not a single person, has articulated that belief.

it's the straw man you go to, every time this conversation comes up

 

[1972]

what are the pieces we should be building around? imo we have a 2nd line center in Hodgson who looks like a good player to keep for awhile, Ennis seems like a good piece to be a 2nd line winger, who else?

Honestly, it looks like Miller, Pominville, and/or Vanek need to be moved for the long term siscess of this club.

 

[Daz28]

Adams value is that of a streaky, godawfully slow AHL player.


He'll never make it in the NHL in any roll... He's entirely to slow.

I'm aware of that opinion of him, but can you explain why he did, and now doesn't have NHL skill. It's not because his physical skills diminished from age. Some GM may think he DOES know why, and like him as a chip. That's all I'm saying. Pat Maroon(who I'm sure was bashed 2 yrs ago just like Luke Adam is now, and he's getting a shot in ANA as we speak, while other talented, younger guys are not. I'm not saying he's gonna be that guy, but you can't just throw him down the tube in 'Jeepers Creepers', either.

 

[Jame]

what are the pieces we should be building around? imo we have a 2nd line center in Hodgson who looks like a good player to keep for awhile, Ennis seems like a good piece to be a 2nd line winger, who else?

we don;t have any franchise pieces to build around... we thought Myers was that piece.

We have a lot of nice, intriguing, potential pieces... but there is no Toews... no Kopitar... no Chara... no franchise players. no leaders. nothing at this time.

this is HF, so people think Grigorenko, Armia, Ennis, Hodgson, etc are players to build around... maybe... maybe not. there are no elite pieces in place. NONE

 

[Chainshot]

I know you need the talent. My point was losing for several years is viewed by some on here as a guarantee of future success. Its far from it.

It also massively oversimplifies how successful teams are built.

The advantage we were supposed to get from Pegula was to be in on the ways other teams have aded that top talent besides the draft, via trade or free agency. But with risk adverse Darcy that will never be the case. He needs to be willing to overpay to get some of the needed pieces. I can't ever see him doing that with his obsession with value.

It is no guarantee. It has to be done properly and even in some cases it takes a decade to get to the promised land (see the Wings as the prime example). However, we are paying to see crap now. Is there any real difference if they take the steps that traditionally have worked for teams who have done the process correctly and suck while taking those steps as compared to being bad with a middling lineup? I think there is a big difference, that of being willing to settle for more years of achieving mediocrity or being willing to gamble for more.

Darcy does not have the stones to move swiftly and decisively. That was my beef with Pegula's retention of him, that too many years of acting in a slow, methodical, risk-averse fashion are not going to dissolve away to reveal a decisive man willing to get things done NOW. And that's part of why I think he needs to go -- he has no idea how to put together a roster.

 

[Karate Johnson*]

what are the pieces we should be building around? imo we have a 2nd line center in Hodgson who looks like a good player to keep for awhile, Ennis seems like a good piece to be a 2nd line winger, who else?

I feel like we are redundant in a lot of areas...

2C being a major place.

Offensive defensemen is another.

We have 2, maybe 3 2C's

A bunch of 3rd/4th liners.

 

[1972]

we don;t have any franchise pieces to build around... we thought Myers was that piece.

We have a lot of nice, intriguing, potential pieces... but there is no Toews... no Kopitar... no Chara... no franchise players. no leaders. nothing at this time.

this is HF, so people think Grigorenko, Armia, Ennis, Hodgson, etc are players to build around... maybe... maybe not. there are no elite pieces in place. NONE

I think Hodgson is a forsure 2nd liner maybe more, not a franchise cornerstone but definetly a future core guy, I think Ennis is more of a complimentary player. who knows about Grigorenko I am alittle discouraged with the pace he plays with.

you can build around guys who are good players, not just franchise guys.

 

[Moskau]

Honestly, it looks like Miller, Pominville, and/or Vanek need to be moved for the long term siscess of this club.

I think moving BOTH Vanek and Pominville would be a mistake. You try and keep one of them around to go with the players you are developing now (Ennis, Foligno) and the players you will develop next year and the year after. It's too many key pieces to replace and if you get rid of them both or fail to trade for replacements THEN you get into trouble and start a never ending rebuild.

Miller I would like to keep but who knows. It will come down to what he wants. I don't think he's a world beater like some but he's still one of the better goalies in the league in the right system with actual players in front of him.

 

[Karate Johnson*]

I'm aware of that opinion of him, but can you explain why he did, and now doesn't have NHL skill. It's not because his physical skills diminished from age. Some GM may think he DOES know why, and like him as a chip. That's all I'm saying. Pat Maroon(who I'm sure was bashed 2 yrs ago just like Luke Adam is now, and he's getting a shot in ANA as we speak, while other talented, younger guys are not. I'm not saying he's gonna be that guy, but you can't just throw him down the tube in 'Jeepers Creepers', either.

Was Adam really ever that much of a can't miss guy? Or was he just overrated here because we needed him?


I doubt very much that he's on anyone's radar.

 

[Daz28]

I don't wanna write in Hodgson yet, because he could go Adam on us yet, but he looks good between two superior NHL players on a 1st line at the age of 22. I'd be setting the ceiling on him higher than 2C. He's already that, and maybe more. 2a maybe.

 

[1972]

I don't wanna write in Hodgson yet, because he could go Adam on us yet, but he looks good between two superior NHL players on a 1st line at the age of 22. I'd be setting the ceiling on him higher than 2C. He's already that, and maybe more. 2a maybe.

he is nothing like Adam, i think he is a sure fire 2 C maybe even more, probably a non elite #1 center.

 

[1972]

Foligno has been a huge disappointment for me, not because of points. I though he was going to be alot more physical and harder to play against.

 

[Chainshot]

what are the pieces we should be building around? imo we have a 2nd line center in Hodgson who looks like a good player to keep for awhile, Ennis seems like a good piece to be a 2nd line winger, who else?

Honestly, it looks like Miller, Pominville, and/or Vanek need to be moved for the long term siscess of this club.

Would a Selke-calibre center be such a piece? I think so and that sort of player seems to be available in Ryan O'Reilly. Would an elite offensive talent be such a piece? Both Nathan MacKinnon and Jonathan Drouin look like elite offensive talent and could be available if this team finishes low enough.

Myers, if he is able to extract his head from his anus, could also be one of those pieces. He has tools. It's now up to him to build on adversity and overcome where he is now.

Hodgson has a lot of growing to do -- his defensive play is a mess, as it is for many young players who aren't on teams that are falling apart at the seams as this one is. Ennis.... Ennis is extremely talented and could also be viewed as a bit of an extravagant luxury item. Or he could be viewed like the second coming of Danny Briere. I am leaning toward the former -- which means he can go back on the wing OR be part of the deal to land O'Reilly (or someone of his ilk). If they could get it done without moving him, great. His speed and offensive creativity does remind me a great deal of a young Briere. So too do his d-zone gaffs. Moving him to the wing? Sure.

That's about it. They have a lot of holes. The wingers who they're relying on for scoring from the second line down are not now capable of supporting anything.

 

[Karate Johnson*]

Hodgson will be a good player. Better than Adam by far.

He could, possibly, be an elite scorer.


But I doubt he's a #1C because of his complete lack of D acumen

 

[Daz28]

Was Adam really ever that much of a can't miss guy? Or was he just overrated here because we needed him?


I doubt very much that he's on anyone's radar.

No he's not on anyone's radar, but sometimes in trades a guy you liked, that hasn't developed, becomes a piece. Again, I wish you'd stop evading why he was so successful for that short period playing on a top line in the NHL. It is a distant memory to us, but not to a GM looking at 23 yr old prospects. No one gets 'lucky' in the NHL like that. Just doesn't happen. There's a reason. I seem like I'm repeating myself, and you're not understanding, so I'll stop.

he is nothing like Adam, i think he is a sure fire 2 C maybe even more, probably a non elite #1 center.

I don't trust anything anymore. I'm a Bills/Sabres fans. Tampa went from Orange uniforms with no wins in 126 seasons, to SB winners, while they grabbed a hockey team and a cup along the way.

Asking me to have faith in anything is asking too much.

 

[1972]

Would a Selke-calibre center be such a piece? I think so and that sort of player seems to be available in Ryan O'Reilly. Would an elite offensive talent be such a piece? Both Nathan MacKinnon and Jonathan Drouin look like elite offensive talent and could be available if this team finishes low enough.

Myers, if he is able to extract his head from his anus, could also be one of those pieces. He has tools. It's now up to him to build on adversity and overcome where he is now.

Hodgson has a lot of growing to do -- his defensive play is a mess, as it is for many young players who aren't on teams that are falling apart at the seams as this one is. Ennis.... Ennis is extremely talented and could also be viewed as a bit of an extravagant luxury item. Or he could be viewed like the second coming of Danny Briere. I am leaning toward the former -- which means he can go back on the wing OR be part of the deal to land O'Reilly (or someone of his ilk). If they could get it done without moving him, great. His speed and offensive creativity does remind me a great deal of a young Briere. So too do his d-zone gaffs. Moving him to the wing? Sure.

That's about it. They have a lot of holes. The wingers who they're relying on for scoring from the second line down are not now capable of supporting anything.

I agree with this, and honestly I am not to worried about Hodgson defensively, he is a very driven player and has quite the work ethic.

I would move Ennis for O'Reilly any day of the week

Yes I want a top 3 pick.

Really the only guy on foward I would really want to keep is Hodgson in respect to the future.

 

[Moskau]

That's about it. They have a lot of holes. The wingers who they're relying on for scoring from the second line down are not now capable of supporting anything.

And the wingers on the 1st line are gone in a year and a half so if Regier goes into this as half-assed as he did the past 2 seasons we are really ****ed.

i.e. Fire Regier. Use these next two drafts to snag some top talent. Fill in the holes the team has in 2 years, don't fill them with crap now and throw together a #10 team.

 

[Afino]

I'm so glad I'm drunk and missed most of this

 

[Karate Johnson*]

Here's my forwards in 2 years, based on what I know... Not speculation. I omit players who have no use to me.

xxxxx-xxxxx-xxxxx
xxxxx-Hodgson-Ennis
Foligno-xxxxxxx-Ott

4th line is not important right now.




But yeah. We have uncertainty. Obviously I hope Armia is in there. We'll full it with some guys.

But right now.... That's pretty much it.

 

[NotABadPeriod]

Would a Selke-calibre center be such a piece? I think so and that sort of player seems to be available in Ryan O'Reilly. Would an elite offensive talent be such a piece? Both Nathan MacKinnon and Jonathan Drouin look like elite offensive talent and could be available if this team finishes low enough.

Myers, if he is able to extract his head from his anus, could also be one of those pieces. He has tools. It's now up to him to build on adversity and overcome where he is now.

Hodgson has a lot of growing to do -- his defensive play is a mess, as it is for many young players who aren't on teams that are falling apart at the seams as this one is. Ennis.... Ennis is extremely talented and could also be viewed as a bit of an extravagant luxury item. Or he could be viewed like the second coming of Danny Briere. I am leaning toward the former -- which means he can go back on the wing OR be part of the deal to land O'Reilly (or someone of his ilk). If they could get it done without moving him, great. His speed and offensive creativity does remind me a great deal of a young Briere. So too do his d-zone gaffs. Moving him to the wing? Sure.

That's about it. They have a lot of holes. The wingers who they're relying on for scoring from the second line down are not now capable of supporting anything.

Ahh...but if you traded for O'Reilly too soon...he might be enough to push the Sabres out of the very bottom and you couldn't get MacKinnon or Drouin. If only we could get both...

 

[SundherDome]

How the hell has Boston only played 14 games ?? Some of the breaks they have had are ridiculous.

 

[NotABadPeriod]

How the hell has Boston only played 14 games ?? Some of the breaks they have had are ridiculous.

One of their games was postponed because of the snowstorm a couple weeks ago. So using the original schedule, they'd be at 15...so it wouldn't be quite as bad.

 

[Chainshot]

And the wingers on the 1st line are gone in a year and a half so if Regier goes into this as half-assed as he did the past 2 seasons we are really ****ed.

i.e. Fire Regier. Use these next two drafts to snag some top talent. Fill in the holes the team has in 2 years, don't fill them with crap now and throw together a #10 team.

True. I also agree that one of them needs to stay as a vet transition player so they aren't completely rudderless in the build process. Which of Pominville or Vanek gets the bigger return? Which makes better sense to retain? Decisions, decisions...

 

[Karate Johnson*]

No he's not on anyone's radar, but sometimes in trades a guy you liked, that hasn't developed, becomes a piece. Again, I wish you'd stop evading why he was so successful for that short period playing on a top line in the NHL. It is a distant memory to us, but not to a GM looking at 23 yr old prospects. No one gets 'lucky' in the NHL like that. Just doesn't happen. There's a reason. I seem like I'm repeating myself, and you're not understanding, so I'll stop.



I don't trust anything anymore. I'm a Bills/Sabres fans. Tampa went from Orange uniforms with no wins in 126 seasons, to SB winners, while they grabbed a hockey team and a cup along the way.

Asking me to have faith in anything is asking too much.

Dude, I think you might be misremembering.... Adam had a good 4 or 5 games. Good, not great.


He had 20 points in 50 games, got sent down and never came back.


It was defiantly a fluke