Steve Yzerman is not a good GM.

  • PLEASE check any bookmark on all devices. IF you see a link pointing to mandatory.com DELETE it Please use this URL https://forums.hfboards.com/
Status
Not open for further replies.

Shane Diesel

Corporate stooges are awesome
Jun 8, 2021
2,352
3,174
Who is Detroits Hart trophy winning top 4 forward in the NHL that Colorado has ?

That’s cool Seider is a top pair D. He’s also no Makar.

That’s like comparing Aho and McDavid and stating they’re both 1st line forwards


Yes the players eventually turned out to be that.

Let’s ask again. Show me a single player who has turned out to be a PPG Norris winning D since being drafted in 2019 to now?

A single one. From any team.

You can’t draft players that don’t exist
You make an excellent point and I've changed my mind at this point in the discussion.

GMs are useless, the only factor in building a good team is only, and I mean only, favorable draft luck.
 

Shane Diesel

Corporate stooges are awesome
Jun 8, 2021
2,352
3,174
The overlooking of having THE best D in the league and a top 5 forward in the NHL to build around “before the rebuild” is truly cocomical.
You speak with an air of authority, yet don't have the facts right. At all.

Makar was drafted in 2017 and didn't see regular ice time until 2019. Girard was added as a trade in 2017 and Toews was added as a trade in 2020. So no, the Avs absolutely did not have a THE BEST defense in the league before the rebuild.

I'd also like to point out MacKinnon wasn't a top five forward in the league until at least 17/18 and his previous career high was 63 points at the end of 16/17.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SENStastic

izlez

We need more toe-drags/60
Feb 28, 2012
4,870
3,817
You make an excellent point and I've changed my mind at this point in the discussion.

GMs are useless, the only factor in building a good team is only, and I mean only, favorable draft luck.
It's not "luck". You're blaming him for not drafting star players that you imagined in your head.

But hey, I guess if you want to say we're a Nils Hoglander and a JJ Moser away from being legitimate cup contenders, I'd say I'm pretty happy with his performance
 
Last edited:

HisNoodliness

Good things come to those who wait
Jun 29, 2014
3,862
2,301
Toronto
I've given multiple examples of rebuilds that took five years or less. It's Detroit fans rejecting the examples whole cloth, not me.
There's also a ton of survivorship bias here. Technically, I would say that had Jim Nill been GM of the Red Wings over Yzerman's tenure, we'd probably be in a better position. He and his scouts have managed to find a lot of diamonds in the rough, and developed them very well.

From his time as our AGM, I'm not sure that I'd trust him to do that again though. Can Nill guarantee that he'll find the next Wyatt Johnston in the late first, the next Jason Roberson and Roope Hintz in the second, etc? No more than Yzerman has been able to replicate finding Kucherov and Point. No more than Holland could find another Zetterberg and Datsyuk in the 6th/7th rounds. Good scouting and development give you the opportunity to find those guys, but no one can quickly replicate that. So yes, these GMs deserve credit for putting together scouting/development departments capable of that, but it also requires a ton of luck, and no one can plan to do that. You put yourself in a position to succeed and hope. That's life.

If given control of Utah do we think Sakic has them looking like the Avs in 5 years? It's possible, but I'd be really surprised. Is anyone hiring Craig Patrick to recreate the Penguins? Nope. No one can guarantee you generational lottery talent.

Most Red Wings fans still think that Yzerman has approached the rebuild in a logical way, and generally made moves that make sense. We can gripe about a lot of small stuff, and frankly, I really don't like the type of team we'll be if this is all successful (a defense first, bully team), but when it's all said and done, he makes reasonable decisions that overall seem likely to lead to success. So we're okay with the idea that this hasn't turned into an "as fast as possible" rebuild.

It's possible to rebuild in one off season. That doesn't mean someone planning a rebuild and making logical choices should expect to do that. In fact if you try to, you're likely to doom the future of your team. Rebuilding from scratch- more or less- usually takes 5-10 years. Based upon our current roster construction and prospect pool, we're looking like a 7-8 year timeline, so that's when things will either come together or fall apart. That's when you'll see the pitch forks come out. Until then, we're just waiting on prospect and biding time.
 

HisNoodliness

Good things come to those who wait
Jun 29, 2014
3,862
2,301
Toronto
I'm one of Yzerman's bigger critics, but the OP is basically why no-one should ever listen to fans. Most of them are low IQ and don't know jack about running an organization or planning for success.
Honestly one of the best parts of this thread is that most of the Wings fans in here are pretty critical of Yzerman on our board. It's just for somewhat legitimate reasons instead of this silliness.

Want to tell me that Yzerman made a mistake when he crowded out Edvinsson and Albert Johansson, or that trading up for Cossa wasn't necessary, that he gave Rasmussen a bit too much money, or that he and Kris Draper are drowning in Scottie Bowman's Kool-Aid? I've got time for that all day. I can't be mad that it's taking us this long to make the playoffs. That's whatever
 

nbwingsfan

Registered User
Dec 13, 2009
21,948
16,109
You speak with an air of authority, yet don't have the facts right. At all.

Makar was drafted in 2017 and didn't see regular ice time until 2019. Girard was added as a trade in 2017 and Toews was added as a trade in 2020. So no, the Avs absolutely did not have a THE BEST defense in the league before the rebuild.

I'd also like to point out MacKinnon wasn't a top five forward in the league until at least 17/18 and his previous career high was 63 points at the end of 16/17.
The best D (Makar). Not best D core

Who cares what Mackinnon was in 16/17 lol…

There isn’t and never has been a Makar or Mackinnon available to Yzerman.

So your entire Colorado point is moot.

Every “comparison” you’ve made has been absolutely ridiculous, and I think enough people have called you out on it now that it’s not worth responding to.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hippasus and Henkka

kingpest19

Registered User
Sep 21, 2004
12,339
761
More or less, they absolutely were. But under your arbitrary definition of a rebuild you don't count it.


I'm well aware, but it doesn't change the argument. The point of using Vegas was to show that a winner coud be built from scratch (literally nothing) in the same time period Yzerman has been GM.


Yes they did, you'll get no argument from me. This is how history went down.



It's not, you just don't like what the comparisons say about your FO.
How exactly were they rebuilt in 5 years starting in 2017 when three of their four core players were drafted in 2011,2013 and 2015? Counting Makar they had three lottery picks in 7 year but the rebuild didn't start until 2017 when they picked Makar?

You've also brought up them drafting in the lottery till 18/19 while leaving out that 2019 lottery pick was the result of a trade of a 2OA that also netted them Girard. They also went to the second round of the playoffs that year so they weren't a lottery team.

No matter what way to try to spin it, their rebuild began long before 2017. They didn't magically go from lottery team to cup winner in that time based on picks made in 2017 and later
 

ZDH

Registered User
Mar 6, 2008
9,179
4,358
The guy talking about how Colorado is proof you can rebuild in 5 years (It was way longer, but whatever) turning around and noting that MacKinnon wasn't particularly elite for the first 5 years of his career is hilarious.
The Vegas argument is even better.
 

IWantSakicAsMyGM

Registered User
Oct 13, 2011
9,910
4,149
Colorado
How so? MacKinnon and Rantanen were secondary players as of 16/17. They didn't become impact performers until 17/18.

I guess if your definition of a rebuild means literally starting from scratch then you'd have a point. So in that case let's just ignore the fact Detroit has had a Landeskog-esque forward in Larkin for the past eight seasons, drafted a top pairing defender that has been a contributor for the past three seasons and another top six forward in Raymond.

But even in that scenario, Vegas went from not existing to a Cup win in five seasons.

I'm sure you'll give me more excuses they're the worst team to ever exist, though.

Because you don't get to claim you started building something after it starts looking like a finished product. Sakic took over as GM in 2013, and started building his team by drafting MacKinnon. That's the logical place to put the starting point for Sakic's build of the Cup team.

And comparing Detroit to Vegas is comparing apples to bicycles, and makes you sound disingenuous and/or illogical. There's nothing even remotely similar about the situations, seeing how Vegas was gifted the best expansion team in league history and have only missed the playoffs once in their first 6 years. How the hell do you expect any existing team to replicate that kind of team building?

The team Yzerman inherited had 39 points in 71 games (45 point pace over 82 games) that first season, which would have been the worst season in recent history. And, unlike the Avs, they didn't need their head coach to rage quit in August to get that bad, they were just that bad. Patrik Nemeth was playing 22 minutes a night on the 1st pair. Fabbri was getting 2nd line minutes and was their 4th highest scorer that year. And their best prospect was Zadina. Looking at that roster, I'm a little surprised that they even won 17 games.

Last year, in year 4 of his build, they were a tiebreaker away from being a wildcard team. And we've only really seen 2 of his draft picks so far, and neither one of them is a finished product.
 

FriendlyGhost92

Registered User
Jun 22, 2023
3,774
4,549
Because you don't get to claim you started building something after it starts looking like a finished product. Sakic took over as GM in 2013, and started building his team by drafting MacKinnon. That's the logical place to put the starting point for Sakic's build of the Cup team.

And comparing Detroit to Vegas is comparing apples to bicycles, and makes you sound disingenuous and/or illogical. There's nothing even remotely similar about the situations, seeing how Vegas was gifted the best expansion team in league history and have only missed the playoffs once in their first 6 years. How the hell do you expect any existing team to replicate that kind of team building?

The team Yzerman inherited had 39 points in 71 games (45 point pace over 82 games) that first season, which would have been the worst season in recent history. And, unlike the Avs, they didn't need their head coach to rage quit in August to get that bad, they were just that bad. Patrik Nemeth was playing 22 minutes a night on the 1st pair. Fabbri was getting 2nd line minutes and was their 4th highest scorer that year. And their best prospect was Zadina. Looking at that roster, I'm a little surprised that they even won 17 games.

Last year, in year 4 of his build, they were a tiebreaker away from being a wildcard team. And we've only really seen 2 of his draft picks so far, and neither one of them is a finished product.

Trying to remember if this was the year Christian Djoos was on the #1PP lol.

Side note, a quarter of our wins that season were against Montreal.
 

FriendlyGhost92

Registered User
Jun 22, 2023
3,774
4,549
For as much as I look at our RHD past Seider and want to gag, Detroit's defense in 20-21 is hilarious. In order of total ice time...

Filip Hronek
Marc Staal
Danny DeKeyser (He was good before his back injury... After he was terrible)
Troy Stecher
Patrik Nemeth
Jon Merrill
Christian Djoos

Yzerman hasn't improved the team at all though lmao.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Realgud

izlez

We need more toe-drags/60
Feb 28, 2012
4,870
3,817
Its also kind of amusing to me that lost in all of this, with some people calling Yzerman a massive failure and some people defending him saying "well, he didn't get any lottery luck"...

Would the wings really be significantly better today with:
Hughes
Lafrenierre
Power

Instead of:
Seider
Raymond
Edvinsson
 
  • Like
Reactions: chaz4hockey

FriendlyGhost92

Registered User
Jun 22, 2023
3,774
4,549
Its also kind of amusing to me that lost in all of this, with some people calling Yzerman a massive failure and some people defending him saying "well, he didn't get any lottery luck"...

Would the wings really be significantly better today with:
Hughes
Lafrenierre
Power

Instead of:
Seider
Raymond
Edvinsson

FWIW, there was heavy speculation right around lottery time that Detroit was looking at Stutzle if they got a lottery pick.

They probably lucked out in 2019, honestly. From what I remember, in the interview immediately after picking Seider, Yzerman said the Top 5 went "About how we expected it". Which is how everybody expected it... That Top 5 was known, even though the exact order wasn't.
 

Pavels Dog

Registered User
Feb 18, 2013
20,441
15,936
Sweden
Lol so I guess its another 5-8 year wait then before the jury is out on him. The inability of that fanbase to even remotely critique their saint is honestly impressive. What a great obedient flock. lol
The hyperbole is incredible. They've improved every year and most Wings fans are basically saying "let's give him until the improvement stops" and you're acting as if everyone would be fine with the team completely going to crap the next 5+ years.

There's a reason people need to basically write off the 24-25 season as well as the majority of the prospect pool in order to jump to conclusions on Yzerman. Because if they improve again.. and if there's actually good players in the pool.. well, you do the math.
 

FriendlyGhost92

Registered User
Jun 22, 2023
3,774
4,549
The hyperbole is incredible. They've improved every year and most Wings fans are basically saying "let's give him until the improvement stops" and you're acting as if everyone would be fine with the team completely going to crap the next 5+ years.

There's a reason people need to basically write off the 24-25 season as well as the majority of the prospect pool in order to jump to conclusions on Yzerman. Because if they improve again.. and if there's actually good players in the pool.. well, you do the math.

... FWIW I expect they actually stagnate this season. Simply because that RHD is still ass, and they're gonna start pumping rookies into the lineup. Edvinsson/AlJo for sure. Mazur likely. Kasper has a chance with some significant injuries.

Which explains why nobody was signed for more than 2 years this offseason, but people who wanna shit on Yzerman don't see that.
 

nbwingsfan

Registered User
Dec 13, 2009
21,948
16,109
Yes, and? Nice deflection there, never stated Ottawa is doing any better, we're shi**ing the bed just the same, and alot of us have been critical of where the club and the rebuild has been heading last couple years and how poorly its been managed.

Im not a complete homer, I can admit when things arent good on our side too. Many of us will, and you know why? Cause we can be at the very least somewhat objective and not completely delusional. Maybe try that for a change. Poor attempt at whataboutism, try harder.
Maybe it’s because all your core is already in the NHL, your 2nd best prospect might be Tyler Boucher (lol) and yet you’re still at the bottom of the standings.

Meanwhile the Wings just missed the playoffs on a technicality and have a top 3 prospect pool in the NHL.

We’re not at the same stage.
 

Indrid Cold

Registered User
Oct 24, 2022
485
473
Yzerman has ONLY TWO of his draft picks in the league so far. You all know that drafting in hockey isn't like the NFL, where those picks can be instant impact players. No one would expect him to FA the Wings back to contention.

Rebuilds in hockey take a lot longer than most other sports. It's not fair to say he sucks when the timetable only gives him two home grown players (both of which are core players) to work with.

I'll admit, his short-term FA signings really have sucked, but it's way too early to see the big picture yet.
 
  • Like
Reactions: nbwingsfan

Golden_Jet

Registered User
Sep 21, 2005
25,052
12,713
Maybe it’s because all your core is already in the NHL, your 2nd best prospect might be Tyler Boucher (lol) and yet you’re still at the bottom of the standings.

Meanwhile the Wings just missed the playoffs on a technicality and have a top 3 prospect pool in the NHL.

We’re not at the same stage.
Boucher got ranked 15th on the Sens prospect board.
I’d say you were close when you said Boucher might be #2, but wasn’t anywhere in that ballpark.
 

StreetHawk

Registered User
Sep 30, 2017
27,989
10,747
Yzerman has ONLY TWO of his draft picks in the league so far. You all know that drafting in hockey isn't like the NFL, where those picks can be instant impact players. No one would expect him to FA the Wings back to contention.

Rebuilds in hockey take a lot longer than most other sports. It's not fair to say he sucks when the timetable only gives him two home grown players (both of which are core players) to work with.

I'll admit, his short-term FA signings really have sucked, but it's way too early to see the big picture yet.
People are going to compare his timeline in TB with that in Det, but massive difference between inheriting Stamkos and Hedman vs Larkin and drafting Seider with his first pick.

Major difference so far was landing a goalie in Vasi in his 3rd draft (which he matched with Cossa in 2021), but Vasi made the NHL quickly. And his scouting dept found key players beyond round 1 as well as some depth as well. Plus a pair of key trades of Drouin/Bishop to land Serg/Cernak. And TDL of McDonaugh.

Not sure how many of the extra 2nds and 3rds the wings had since Yzerman became GM are currently projecting well enough to expect to make the NHL in the next 2 seasons. That's the make/break for him. Det doesn't appear to have enough high end talent that TB had.
 

FriendlyGhost92

Registered User
Jun 22, 2023
3,774
4,549
Not sure who on Detroit compares to Crosby/Malkin. I'd say they're a big reason why the Pens rebuild didn't take as long as a regular rebuild would.

So now we have a Colorado fan AND a Pittsburgh fan pointing out that @Shane Diesel using their teams as evidence is baseless.

LMAO. What a fail.

Boucher got ranked 15th on the Sens prospect board.
I’d say you were close when you said Boucher might be #2, but wasn’t anywhere in that ballpark.

He's not 2nd, but the guy isn't wrong that OTT was shit last year and most of their good pieces are graduated...

Yeah, there's issues with Norris' injuries and Pinto being suspended half the season, but still not a good look. They started selling 1sts to buy before they should have.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad