Steve Yzerman is not a good GM.

[Shane Diesel]

Yes. We'll compare Yzerman starting with Rasmussen and Zadina to the Avs having Landeskog and MacKinnon if you like.

For a Detroit fan it's strange you aren't familiar with Dylan Larkin.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Using the benefit of hindsight, please build us a powerhouse of a team that Yzerman had the option of drafting from the 2019 drafts and later

If only the idiot could've been like Pittsburgh and drafted Top 2 four years in a row. Might've had Hughes/Stutzle/Power/Nemec. What a dumbass!

For a Detroit fan it's strange you aren't familiar with Dylan Larkin.

It's weird you keep bringing up Dylan Larkin like he wasn't drafted 15th OA when Detroit was still in the middle of a 25 year playoff streak.

Tell me more about how he was a piece collected during a rebuild, like MacKinnon...

Again, let me know when you make an argument that isn't shit.

 

[SirKillalot]

Except if you're Colorado or Vegas.

Colorado didn't use 5 years, it took 11 years from drafting their captain to winning the cup. It took 8-9 to be really competitive.

Vegas literally didn't exist, had no prospect pipe-line or infrastructure, no coaching staff, etc. and won a Cup within five years.

Vegas was gifted 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th liners left and right with draft picks and top four defensemen plus NHL goalies. They didn't have to draft anyone not ready and use 3-5 years developing them. It wasn't the players choice to sign there, they got them for free +addons in some cases.
Even Seattle was in the PO the second season as well, because some of the same premise applied to them, but GM's was a bit smarter since the Vegas thing and look at them, super contenders now year in and year out right? No.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Yes. We'll compare Yzerman starting with Rasmussen and Zadina to the Avs having Landeskog and MacKinnon if you like.

You're right. Ken Holland really set him up for success there!,

Now you’re catching on.
Comparing apples to apples, vs apples to oranges.
Comparing early AVS to post SY drafting was just dumb comparison.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Now you’re catching on.
Comparing apples to apples, vs apples to oranges.
Comparing early AVS to post SY drafting was just dumb comparison.

Agreed. Go tell the genius that made the comparison...

 

[ON3M4N]

I see, Detroit is unique and was bad in a way the league has never seen, thus there are no comparisons.

You guys are hysterical.

I assume you're talking about the rebuild that landed them Crosby. That rebuild kicked off in the 2001-2002 season and they won their cup in the 2008-2009 season. So even that one was 7-8 years and required drafting a generational phenom, another superstar selected #2OA who goes #1 most years but was in a class with Ovechkin and then the last goalie to ever get drafted #1OA.

So far all 3 of your examples are bad. 2 of them took longer than 5 years and 1 of them has never actually done a "rebuild"

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

I assume you're talking about the rebuild that landed them Crosby. That rebuild kicked off in the 2001-2002 season and they won their cup in the 2008-2009 season. So even that one was 7-8 years and required drafted a generational phenom, another superstar selected #2OA who goes #1 most years but was in a class with Ovechkin and then the last goalie to ever get drafted #1OA.

So far all 3 of your examples are bad. 2 of them took longer than 5 years and 1 of them has never actually done a "rebuild"

Nevermind that one of them is a completely unrealistic comparison of a team that got top picks four years in a row lol.

Detroit hasn't picked higher than 4th but is somehow supposed to emulate the Pittsburgh rebuild model.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

I see, Detroit is unique and was bad in a way the league has never seen, thus there are no comparisons.

You guys are hysterical.

People might take you more seriously if you actually engaged with the arguments that demonstrate how ridiculous your position is.

 

[HisNoodliness]

We agree then.

As I said, this isn't news to anyone. We all know it.

One could (not me) also argue that another GM could have had them in the playoffs by now.

Again, we agree.

I wasn't talking about the past. I was talking, speculatively, about the future -- i.e., from here on.

And you didn't answer my question: If they miss the playoffs in 2025, is Yzerman a failure? In 2025 and 2026? 2027? At what point is he a "failure"?

Honestly, contextually from the team, I'd say Yzerman has 2 more seasons to make the playoffs before I'd start evaluating this rebuild as a potential failure, and at most 4 before I'd say it's definitely a failure. When this rebuild started, we wouldn't have said "he has to make it by the 25-26 season or the rebuild is a failure" because at that time, there were too many unknowns at how long it would take for a core to come together and shape up. Now we have enough context to say "one more year of missing is fine, and maybe a bit more after that, but we'll see."

By the end of the 25-26 season, most of our high end prospects should be on the team with a few more reinforcements still on the way. The rebuild will be a failure if a core composed of Larkin, Raymond, Seider, Kasper, Cossa, Danielson, ASP and MBN isn't a playoff team because that's the team we've been building towards. A team that's largely lead by Compher, Copp, Chiarot, Petry, Kane, etc doesn't really matter for evaluating success/failure as those guys aren't going to be on the team that wins anything (at least not in any important role).

Essentially, let's say that by season's end the Red Wings have missed the playoffs, but Edvinsson managed to look good on the second pairing all year. Danielson got 40 games and worked his way up to the 2C spot, Mazur established himself as a decent 3W and AlJo played well for 70 games on the third pairing, we see steady progress in GR and Europe, etc, I'd be ecstatic. That's essentially the best case scenario this year.

Alternatively, if Edvinsson struggled on our third pair all year, none of the kids forced their way onto the big club, Berggren and AlJo got claimed off waivers after they couldn't stick, BUT Kane and Tarasenko went off, Ben Chiarot became the 2nd pair defenseman NHL execs believe him to be, the spirit of Detroit filled Petry's rotting corpse and he regained his youth, Copp and Compher played like 1Cs and Cam Talbot channeled his best Dominik Hasek impersonation on the way to a loss in the Stanley Cup Finals, I'd consider that to be much worse than the scenario above. It would have no sustainability, and that team would be right back to losing the year after. It would be a lot of fun for a few months, but we'd all know that this team wasn't getting back there any time soon, especially because we hadn't seen the progress in our youth that we need to to build a sustainable contender.

We can determine whether this was all a failure when the group of prospects that are supposed to be our core sink or swim at the NHL level. Actually, that's why you're seeing Wings fans mad this offseason for the first time after what has been our most successful year. We didn't give Edvinsson playing time last year when he was clearly ready (and an improvement IMO). We still haven't let AlJo get a single NHL game, and Berggren got sent back down after making it the year before. We won more games, had a more exciting season and almost made the playoffs. But we didn't see the kids get the NHL experience that we really should be giving them, and that has most Wings fans upset. We don't really give a shit about the playoffs at this point. It would have been nice experience for Seider and Raymond, but that's about it.

 

[SirKillalot]

Yeah, I'm sure when Yzerman was hired, his goal was to emulate the current Buffalo Sabres.

His goal is to build a contender that has multiple chances to win a cup.
He can't throw fairy dust, pray to whatever invisible god you believe in and sacrifice a lamb to do so in 3-5 years in the cap area with the starting point he had. It takes time, and it takes more time when you don't get the luck of drafting 1-2 overall or having some luck of being able to sign top end talent.

If they had the chance to draft a McDavid, Bedard or similar type player, and another one top end guy it also attracts other high end guys as well.

This other guy mentioning Pittsburgh, like they didn't draft franchise players in 4 years in a row plus a 5th overall they traded for a top six winger and hit on some other picks, while trading for some veterans along the way. 5 times in top 5 in 5 years, 4 who hit, one who became a piece to get a complimentary forward.

1st overall Fleury 2003
2nd overall Malkin 2004 + hit on Goligoski in the 3rd round
1st overall Crosby 2005 + hit on Letang in the 3rd round
2nd overall Jordan Staal 2006
Even drafted Jake Muzzin in 2007 but he wasn't signed and never played for the team

Prior to that they drafted
5th overall Ryan Whitney in 2002 which they traded in 08/09 for Chris Kunitz+
3rd round Erik Christensen 2002 (in which they packaged Christensen+Armstrong to get Hossa)
21st overall Colby Armstrong in 2001
18th overall Brooks Orpik in 2000
Even got Rob Scuderi in the 5th round of 1998

 

[SENStastic]

Meanwhile in Ottawa, they're on their third year in a row of giving up a 1st for an upcoming UFA who isn't willing to commit to the organization...

Maybe Yzerman should go with that approach?

Yes, and? Nice deflection there, never stated Ottawa is doing any better, we're shi**ing the bed just the same, and alot of us have been critical of where the club and the rebuild has been heading last couple years and how poorly its been managed.

Im not a complete homer, I can admit when things arent good on our side too. Many of us will, and you know why? Cause we can be at the very least somewhat objective and not completely delusional. Maybe try that for a change. Poor attempt at whataboutism, try harder.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Yes, and? Nice deflection there, never stated Ottawa is doing any better, we're shi**ing the bed just the same, and alot of us have been critical of where the club and the rebuild has been heading last couple years and how poorly its been managed.

Im not a complete homer, I can admit when things arent good on our side too. Many of us will, and you know why? Cause we can be at the very least somewhat objective and not completely delusional. Maybe try that for a change. Poor attempt at whataboutism, try harder.

I mean yeah, it's kinda hard not to admit your management sucks when you're an Ottawa fan.

As for Detroit, considering Yzerman has been repeating "Build through the draft" since the day he walked through the door, I guess I'll start getting worried once his draft picks start busting.

 

[Shane Diesel]

People might take you more seriously if you actually engaged with the arguments that demonstrate how ridiculous your position is.

I've given multiple examples of rebuilds that took five years or less. It's Detroit fans rejecting the examples whole cloth, not me.

 

[ZDH]

Hf expects cups over night and never looks at how long it took the teams that are currently winning cups to get to where they are.

[Hint: Longer than Yzerman has been GM of Detroit is the answer.]

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

I've given multiple examples of rebuilds that took five years or less. It's Detroit fans rejecting the examples whole cloth, not me.

Your examples:

Colorado: Was not rebuilt in 5 years.

Vegas: Was not a rebuild at all.

Pittsburgh: Picked Top 2 four years in a row. Detroit has picked Top 5 (4th) once.

I'm not sure if this is a shitty trolling attempt or what.

 

[Shane Diesel]

Your examples:

Colorado: Was not rebuilt in 5 years.

More or less, they absolutely were. But under your arbitrary definition of a rebuild you don't count it.

Vegas: Was not a rebuild at all.

I'm well aware, but it doesn't change the argument. The point of using Vegas was to show that a winner coud be built from scratch (literally nothing) in the same time period Yzerman has been GM.

Pittsburgh: Picked Top 2 four years in a row. Detroit has picked Top 5 (4th) once.

Yes they did, you'll get no argument from me. This is how history went down.

I'm not sure if this is a shitty trolling attempt or what.

It's not, you just don't like what the comparisons say about your FO.

 

[SENStastic]

I mean yeah, it's kinda hard not to admit your management sucks when you're an Ottawa fan.

As for Detroit, considering Yzerman has been repeating "Build through the draft" since the day he walked through the door, I guess I'll start getting worried once his draft picks start busting.

Lol so I guess its another 5-8 year wait then before the jury is out on him. The inability of that fanbase to even remotely critique their saint is honestly impressive. What a great obedient flock. lol

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

More or less, they absolutely were. But under your arbitrary definition of a rebuild you don't count it.


I'm well aware, but it doesn't change the argument. The point of using Vegas was to show that a winner coud be built from scratch (literally nothing) in the same time period Yzerman has been GM.


Yes they did, you'll get no argument from me. This is how history went down.



It's not, you just don't like what the comparisons say about your FO.

No. Your comparisons are just dogshit.

Lol so I guess its another 5-8 year wait then before the jury is out on him. The inability of that fanbase to even remotely critique their saint is honestly impressive. What a great obedient flock. lol

Sure beats trading those picks for guys that don't want to be here.

 

[SENStastic]

Sure beats trading those picks for guys that don't want to be here.

Ya, keep on deflecting..

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Ya, keep on deflecting..

There's nothing to deflect from. You keep repeating the same shit after I told you the method from Day 1 has been build through the draft lol.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Except if you're Colorado or Vegas.


I guess he isn't the drafting genius his fans in Tampa made him out to be.

Can you show me any single PPG perennial Norris D who have been drafted since Yzerman took over in 2019.

A single one?

He’s supposed to just draft players who don’t even exist…?

 

[nbwingsfan]

How so? MacKinnon and Rantanen were secondary players as of 16/17. They didn't become impact performers until 17/18.

I guess if your definition of a rebuild means literally starting from scratch then you'd have a point. So in that case let's just ignore the fact Detroit has had a Landeskog-esque forward in Larkin for the past eight seasons, drafted a top pairing defender that has been a contributor for the past three seasons and another top six forward in Raymond.

But even in that scenario, Vegas went from not existing to a Cup win in five seasons.

I'm sure you'll give me more excuses they're the worst team to ever exist, though.

Who is Detroits Hart trophy winning top 4 forward in the NHL that Colorado has ?

That’s cool Seider is a top pair D. He’s also no Makar.

That’s like comparing Aho and McDavid and stating they’re both 1st line forwards

He drafted a HOF goalie at 18 and Brayden Point in the third round. Why are you making excuses for Stevie Y?


You have trouble staying on topic, I thought we were discussing Vegas.

The Avs had lottery picks through 18/19, which I've discussed at length.

Yes the players eventually turned out to be that.

Let’s ask again. Show me a single player who has turned out to be a PPG Norris winning D since being drafted in 2019 to now?

A single one. From any team.

You can’t draft players that don’t exist

 

[ON3M4N]

I've given multiple examples of rebuilds that took five years or less. It's Detroit fans rejecting the examples whole cloth, not me.

I'm rejecting your examples and I'm not a Detroit fan

 

[Shane Diesel]

I'm rejecting your examples and I'm not a Detroit fan

Cool

 

[nbwingsfan]

if you’re going to count the early AVS picks, then you need to include the wings picks before SY and the time spent rebuilding as well before SY.

Sure.

You can include Larkin, Mantha, Bertuzzi, Hronek, Zadina, Veleno… cholowski?

You can package all those players together and they still don’t even get you one of Makar or Mackinnons used left skates in a trade.

The overlooking of having THE best D in the league and a top 5 forward in the NHL to build around “before the rebuild” is truly comical