Blue Jays Discussion: Steve Pearce: comeback machine

[zeke]

oh no not Castro AND Hoffman. the horrors.

 

[ToneDog]

oh no not Castro AND Hoffman. the horrors.

Hoffman was a 1st round pick made by AA. Even so my point was that AA traded for Tulo in order to rid himself of the mistake he made acquiring Reyes. Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[Woodman19]

I would argue AA's aversion to drafting hitters is why we are here now. We went way to heavy with arms in the draft.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

AA just traded top prospects for veterans for immediate success. He left us with one of the oldest MLB team, and not a whole lot in terms of prospects. AA gave us a terrific season. And I suspect he knew in July he was leaving so he threw caution to the wind.

AA was largely insignificant.

This message is less for you, Yung Cor, and more directed to the thread in general.

I hate to be Zeke-ian in nature, but of the orgs top ten most valuable assets, 8 are AA's.

1. Sanchez
2. Stroman
3. Osuna
4. Guerrero
6. Travis
7. Alford
8. SRF
9. Jansen

While 2 are Atkins': 5. Bo, 10. Gurriel Jr

As always, this argument tends to get too extreme on one side or the other. He was a fine GM, who's team scouted, drafted and developed pitching well. Got a little lucky with Bautista/Encarnacion, got better with his trades over time, and has essentially one material F up (Dickey). Back to back ALCS's and a full farm system are his legacy. Complaining about his tenure is as ill informed as it is petulant.

Similarly, blaming Atkins or Shapiro for the current state of the team is equally as ill informed and petulant.

 

[zeke]

Even if they add (let's say) an extra 5 wins, then the Jays would be 48-47 and not even in a wildcard spot despite adding another ~260m in commitments. This is what spinning the wheels looks like.

feel free to subtract 100+m in other useless commitmments to your equation.

And sure, the most historic regular season run, I'll give you that. But that offence wasn't WAMCO.

better than wamco.

93 v 15 wrc+

Olerud 179 -------- Donaldson 154
Molitor 144 ------- Encarnacion 150
Alomar 142 ------- Bautista 148
Fernandez 114 -- Colabello 142
White 109 --------- Travis 135
Carter 108 --------- Martin 114
Henderson 90 ---- Revere 102
Sprague 85 -------- Pillar 93
Borders 72 --------- Tulowitzki 91

Knorr 98 -------- Smoak 108
Coles 85 -------- Carrera 90
Ward 59 --------- Goins 84
Jackson 56 ---- Navarro 84
Schofield 49 ---- Pompey 81

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

I would argue AA's aversion to drafting hitters is why we are here now. We went way to heavy with arms in the draft.

That is a valid criticism that we have raised in here before. I will say however that given his scouting teams' inability to hit on position players early in their drafting makes me happy they went heavy on the arms. That way, you accrue actual usable assets (I.e. Nolin, Graveman, Jairo, Comer, etc.) that can be moved rather than useless assets (I.e. Anderson, Davis, Sweeney, Hawkins).

 

[Cor]

This message is less for you, Yung Cor, and more directed to the thread in general.

I hate to be Zeke-ian in nature, but of the orgs top ten most valuable assets, 8 are AA's.

1. Sanchez
2. Stroman
3. Osuna
4. Guerrero
6. Travis
7. Alford
8. SRF
9. Jansen

While 2 are Atkins': 5. Bo, 10. Gurriel Jr

As always, this argument tends to get too extreme on one side or the other. He was a fine GM, who's team scouted, drafted and developed pitching well. Got a little lucky with Bautista/Encarnacion, got better with his trades over time, and has essentially one material F up (Dickey). Back to back ALCS's and a full farm system are his legacy. Complaining about his tenure is as ill informed as it is petulant.

Similarly, blaming Atkins or Shapiro for the current state of the team is equally as ill informed and petulant.

Shapiro and Atkins have only been here 1.5 seasons. Of course most of the top assets are from AA. That doesn't mean much.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Shapiro and Atkins have only been here 1.5 seasons. Of course most of the top assets are from AA. That doesn't mean much.

Ok, now I am directing it to you. It is a fallacy that the farm system is empty. Many of the prospect who will be debuting in 2018/2019, and making material contributions, are AA's. The chief reason the franchise will have a top ten farm system in baseball (the #1 overall prospect in baseball) is AA.

The majority of the prospects he traded are largely insignificant. He's responsible for two ALCS appearances; th first two playoff appearances for the franchise in 22 years.

These are all facts.

Im not even an AA shipper, but I have the sneaky suspicion that AA is going to get Ben Cheringtoned over the next three years :laughed:.

 

[Cor]

Ok, now I am directing it to you. It is a fallacy that the farm system is empty. Many of the prospect who will be debuting in 2018/2019, and making material contributions, are AA's. The chief reason the franchise will have a top ten farm system in baseball (the #1 overall prospect in baseball) is AA.

The majority of the prospects he traded are largely insignificant. He's responsible for two ALCS appearances; th first two playoff appearances for the franchise in 22 years.

These are all facts.

Im not even an AA shipper, but I have the sneaky suspicion that AA is going to get Ben Cheringtoned over the next three years :laughed:.

No one is saying it's empty. However, it certainly wasn't stocked. Shapiro and Atkins have done some solid drafting to help fill it again.

Yes, a good portion are insignificant, but then there's Thor, D'arnaud, Hechavarria, Hoffman.

AA drafted some solid pitchers, and GM'd this team to a playoff appearance, then decided to leave. He brought us Donaldson, and gave us a look at our first true ace since Doc.

He did good. I liked the guy, don't get me wrong. Heck, he brought Reyes to the Jays, and posters here that are familiar with me know he was/is one of my favourite players to watch.

In fact, the guy is smart. He knew when to leave. He now gets credit for the small peak of the team (including a year he wasn't in the org) and he gets no credit for the sudden, steep, expected decline of the team.

I'm mostly just sick of people acting like he was a great GM, when he wasn't. He had strengths and he had some luck, but the way people crap on Shapiro because he's not AA is ridiculous.

Let me rephrase. I'm sick of the Shapiro vs AA crap. Shapiro wanted AA to stay. AA chose to leave. Stop hating on Shapiro because of it.

 

[dredeye]

No one is saying it's empty. However, it certainly wasn't stocked. Shapiro and Atkins have done some solid drafting to help fill it again.

Yes, a good portion are insignificant, but then there's Thor, D'arnaud, Hechavarria, Hoffman.

AA drafted some solid pitchers, and GM'd this team to a playoff appearance, then decided to leave. He brought us Donaldson, and gave us a look at our first true ace since Doc.

He did good. I liked the guy, don't get me wrong. Heck, he brought Reyes to the Jays, and posters here that are familiar with me know he was/is one of my favourite players to watch.

In fact, the guy is smart. He knew when to leave. He now gets credit for the small peak of the team (including a year he wasn't in the org) and he gets no credit for the sudden, steep, expected decline of the team.

I'm mostly just sick of people acting like he was a great GM, when he wasn't. He had strengths and he had some luck, but the way people crap on Shapiro because he's not AA is ridiculous.

Let me rephrase. I'm sick of the Shapiro vs AA crap. Shapiro wanted AA to stay. AA chose to leave. Stop hating on Shapiro because of it.

I was a huge AA guy. Anyone can check my post history from the times nearly everyone was calling for his head. I wasn't one of them and took a ton of flack for defending him in the same ways I am now with the current team. I was a rogers apologist defending how they will never put the money into the team that's "required" to win. My problem is at his final deadline he went all in and really didn't care about anything past that season. It just felt like he was leaving for sure as was Beeston so they just went all in hoping to end on the ultimate high. It's why Martin was back loaded. The writing was on the wall with the hindsight we now have. I feel like if he was going to stay he likely would have taken a slightly different approach at the end

I'll add that I'll now defend him as much as I'm willing to criticize him

 

[ToneDog]

I was a huge AA guy. Anyone can check my post history from the times nearly everyone was calling for his head. I wasn't one of them and took a ton of flack for defending him in the same ways I am now with the current team. I was a rogers apologist defending how they will never put the money into the team that's "required" to win. My problem is at his final deadline he went all in and really didn't care about anything past that season. It just felt like he was leaving for sure as was Beeston so they just went all in hoping to end on the ultimate high. It's why Martin was back loaded. The writing was on the wall with the hindsight we now have. I feel like if he was going to stay he likely would have taken a slightly different approach at the end

I'll add that I'll now defend him as much as I'm willing to criticize him

I feel the same way. AA behaved like an OHL GM that trades away it's young talent and future picks for established players for a run or two at the Memorial Cup. They then suck until they can restock the team.

 

[Judas Tavares]

I would argue AA's aversion to drafting hitters is why we are here now. We went way to heavy with arms in the draft.

Bingo

That is a valid criticism that we have raised in here before. I will say however that given his scouting teams' inability to hit on position players early in their drafting makes me happy they went heavy on the arms. That way, you accrue actual usable assets (I.e. Nolin, Graveman, Jairo, Comer, etc.) that can be moved rather than useless assets (I.e. Anderson, Davis, Sweeney, Hawkins).

This is true. If you can't hit on a bat, might as well go arm, especially since if they are successful they have a lot of value.

But if your best position players of late are Pillar and Goins. And you haven't really hit since... Lind, Hill, Rios...? That's brutal. No excuse there. You'd think we'd hit on at least a few more.

That's been the biggest issue. The Red Sox hit on bats all the time. The Yankees improved and have hit huge of late. We have squat. What impact bats did we give up in those deals for Tulo and Donladson etc... 0, maybe Barretto down the line.

People who want to point the finger at AA are entitled to but are doing it all wrong. The only thing that happens if we don't make those trades are two more crappy years in 2015 and 2016, and maybe if Noah doesn't break down here, we have one of the best pitchers in baseball.

So basically, 0 playoffs and a future maybe slightly better than we have now.

2 playoffs + meh future > 0 playoffs and slightly better than meh future.

You want to critisize AA, do it for the lack of drafting impact position players, not trades or signings. I'll praise the trades and signings, at least we aren't 24 years into a playoff drought.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

No one is saying it's empty. However, it certainly wasn't stocked. Shapiro and Atkins have done some solid drafting to help fill it again.

Yes, a good portion are insignificant, but then there's Thor, D'arnaud, Hechavarria, Hoffman.

AA drafted some solid pitchers, and GM'd this team to a playoff appearance, then decided to leave. He brought us Donaldson, and gave us a look at our first true ace since Doc.

He did good. I liked the guy, don't get me wrong. Heck, he brought Reyes to the Jays, and posters here that are familiar with me know he was/is one of my favourite players to watch.

In fact, the guy is smart. He knew when to leave. He now gets credit for the small peak of the team (including a year he wasn't in the org) and he gets no credit for the sudden, steep, expected decline of the team.

I'm mostly just sick of people acting like he was a great GM, when he wasn't. He had strengths and he had some luck, but the way people crap on Shapiro because he's not AA is ridiculous.

Let me rephrase. I'm sick of the Shapiro vs AA crap. Shapiro wanted AA to stay. AA chose to leave. Stop hating on Shapiro because of it.

The only real glaring piece is Syndergaard. We've had this debate, several times in this thread. The hilarious part is I'm usually on your end of it.

The most annoying part of it is that it tends to be brought up by people who have no bloody clue what they're talking about (the casual fan after a losing streak, usually, or a Syndergaard/Hoffman good start, or a Tulo hitless streak; you can literally set your watch to it) or Zeke. Your stance on it is reasonable and right in the middle, which is why I initially addressed the thread as a whole.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

I feel the same way. AA behaved like an OHL GM that trades away it's young talent and future picks for established players for a run or two at the Memorial Cup. They then suck until they can restock the team.

What the.... Name the players traded in Jul 2015....then, name which ones would be contributing to the 2017 Blue Jays that would change the current record.

I'll wait.

 

[trellaine201]

Let's go Jays! Win this one.

 

[trellaine201]

What can we get back for Osuna? If they decide to take offers.

 

[Cor]

I think though, the next 8 days are a critical moment in the Shapiro era and how it will go. I still think the large majority of moves Shapiro and Atkins have made, have been positive, so the trust is there that they can make the good moves. However, are we going to go into a rebuild? A big retool? Or look for a piece or two to help a bit this year, but try and get the team back into contendership next season.

- If we think Bichette is our future 2B, which he likely is, and he'll be MLB ready in 2019, do we see if Travis has any trade value to improve elsewhere, and look for a stopgap for 2018?
- We have Alford, Smith Jr as young players pretty much ready in the OF, so what do we do with our 4 current outfielders? I think Jose is a decent bet to move, but what about Pillar?
- Donaldson isn't going to move in the next week, but that decision likely weighs a lot on what we do in the next week.

It's insanely complicated really.

 

[Woodman19]

What can we get back for Osuna? If they decide to take offers.

an Arm and two legs.

 

[dredeye]

I think though, the next 8 days are a critical moment in the Shapiro era and how it will go. I still think the large majority of moves Shapiro and Atkins have made, have been positive, so the trust is there that they can make the good moves. However, are we going to go into a rebuild? A big retool? Or look for a piece or two to help a bit this year, but try and get the team back into contendership next season.

- If we think Bichette is our future 2B, which he likely is, and he'll be MLB ready in 2019, do we see if Travis has any trade value to improve elsewhere, and look for a stopgap for 2018?
- We have Alford, Smith Jr as young players pretty much ready in the OF, so what do we do with our 4 current outfielders? I think Jose is a decent bet to move, but what about Pillar?
- Donaldson isn't going to move in the next week, but that decision likely weighs a lot on what we do in the next week.

It's insanely complicated really.

It's important that he makes moves but with the exception of smith. Very unfortunately our free agents to be have terrible seasons. May get a little value out of Estrada. But we won't be getting any real building blocks based off of those pieces.

 

[ToneDog]

What the.... Name the players traded in Jul 2015....then, name which ones would be contributing to the 2017 Blue Jays that would change the current record.

I'll wait.

Off the top of my head, Castro and Hoffman in the Tulo trade, Daniel Norris, Matt Boyd and Jairo Labourt for Price and prospects for Revere and Lowe.

Quote from the Toronto Star:

Alex Anthopoulos could be forgiven for wanting a little shuteye. The Blue Jays general manager has been baseball’s most active executive in the week leading up to Friday’s trade deadline.


Whether the players are helping in 2017 is not the point. My point is that he went all in cause he knew he was done. I don't think he makes those trades if he has the future in mind. While we are at it, tell me which prospects that he didn't trade that can be contributing in 2017. I won't wait.

 

[ShaneFalco]

It is complicated, and what makes it more complicated is how much Chips, Liriano, Bautista, and to a certain extent (based more on fielding and health) Pearce have all been sub-par. Trade value has presumably dropped

It's a shame Pompey can never stay healthy. Trotting out Pearce or Carrera in the field has been ugly.

Tulo and Travis can never stay healthy so that means going with Goins/Barney. We all know what that movie is like

And Pillar just baffles me.

 

[dredeye]

I think though, the next 8 days are a critical moment in the Shapiro era and how it will go. I still think the large majority of moves Shapiro and Atkins have made, have been positive, so the trust is there that they can make the good moves. However, are we going to go into a rebuild? A big retool? Or look for a piece or two to help a bit this year, but try and get the team back into contendership next season.

- If we think Bichette is our future 2B, which he likely is, and he'll be MLB ready in 2019, do we see if Travis has any trade value to improve elsewhere, and look for a stopgap for 2018?
- We have Alford, Smith Jr as young players pretty much ready in the OF, so what do we do with our 4 current outfielders? I think Jose is a decent bet to move, but what about Pillar?
- Donaldson isn't going to move in the next week, but that decision likely weighs a lot on what we do in the next week.

It's insanely complicated really.

It's important that he makes moves but with the exception of smith. Very unfortunately our free agents to be have had terrible seasons. May get a little value out of Estrada. But we won't be getting any real building blocks based off of those pieces.

 

[zeke]

"going all in at the deadline without caring about the future"

D.Norris (24): 43gs, 5.1ip/gs, 4.28era, 4.27fip, 4.54xfip
J.Hoffman (24): 17gs, 5.3ip/gs, 5.12era, 4.68fip, 4.98xfip
M.Boyd (26): 42gs, 5.0ip/gs, 5.75era, 5.23fip, 4.98xfip
M.Castro (22): 0gs, 56.0ip, 4.82era, 5.43fip, 4.92xfip
R.Rasmussen (28): 0gs, 15.1ip, 9.98era, 4.18fip, 4.31xfip
J.Labourt (23): AAA: 0gs, 3.0ip, 6.00era, 5.05fip / AA 0gs, 32.0ip, 2.64era, 2.86fip
J.Brentz (22): AA: 0gs, 6.1ip, 11.37era, 10.68fip / A+ 0gs, 26.0ip, 3.81era, 1.78fip
J.Tinoco (22): A+: 20gs, 104.1ip, 6.21era, 5.50fip
N.Wells (21): A 35gs, 166.0ip, 6.02era, 5.02fip

 

[ToneDog]

It's important that he makes moves but with the exception of smith. Very unfortunately our free agents to be have terrible seasons. May get a little value out of Estrada. But we won't be getting any real building blocks based off of those pieces.

I get a feeling that Shatkins is not going to do much but if he does he might be a buyer more than a seller. He won't be buying rentals, he will be buying players who are controlled in 2018 or beyond.

 

[zeke]

I have a feeling thag shapkins supporters will be just as disappointed with the halfarsed rebuild as i've been disappointed with the half-arsed attempt to contend.