Online Series: Star Wars: The Acolyte on Disney+

[MadDevil]

The problem more than woke is retconning and deconstruction of a character or universe. It's very demeaning to the core audience. The opposite of too much fan service is just as bad.

The main actress was bad, the creator wasn't that creative, and they did stuff just to do stuff. Not a good recipe.

Who or what was retconned or deconstructed in this show? Ki-Adi-Mundi's age? The Jedi being too bad? Witches using magic?

 

[Roo Returns]

Who or what was retconned or deconstructed in this show? Ki-Adi-Mundi's age? The Jedi being too bad? Witches using magic?

Yes, Ki-Adi-Mundi and the Jedi being tools.

It's bad. Not as bad as some of the Nu Trek stuff. Still pretty bad.

 

[MadDevil]

Yes, Ki-Adi-Mundi and the Jedi being tools.

It's bad. Not as bad as some of the Nu Trek stuff. Still pretty bad.

Okay, so a character whose species we don't know the lifespan of, in a galaxy with species that can live for centuries, and an Order that is shown to be flawed and falls a century later being shown as being idiots was a bridge too far?

 

[Osprey]

I'll ask again, what agenda was this show pushing? Was it woke because it had a gay witch couple that used magical witch powers to create life? Was it woke because there were only like 2 white named characters? Did the show actually push an agenda or are people applying an agenda because of who the creators/actors are and things they've said in interviews (some of which were talking about projects that had nothing to do with the show)?

If you want to argue the show wasn't well written or directed, I would agree. But I don't think either of those were as much because of "wokeness" . I think it just wasn't well written and/or directed. Say the witch couple was a straight man and straight woman. Does that make the show better? If more of the Jedi were white males, is the show better? What "woke" parts of the show killed it?

It's not that specific "woke" parts of the show made it bad. It's that they often didn't make sense and precluded better storytelling. For example, making the parents a straight man and woman wouldn't have made the show better if everything else stayed the same, no, but then the story likely would've been very different, since representing a female-centric society and Headland's own lesbian relationship no doubt inspired the witches in the first place. Without wanting to put those elements in, she might've come up with a better story.

We agree that the show wasn't well written or directed, but if you disagree with the reasons being given for that, what do you think the reasons are?

 

[Pranzo Oltranzista]

since representing a female-centric society and Headland's own lesbian relationship no doubt inspired the witches in the first place. Without wanting to put those elements in, she might've come up with a better story.

I'm trying to flip this and it really feels like a very weird comment. If she was hetero and had made the parents "a straight man and woman", would you point that out as maybe a reason she didn't come up with a better story? Maybe I'm just very tired... I'm off.

 

[Osprey]

I'm trying to flip this and it really feels like a very weird comment. If she was hetero and had made the parents "a straight man and woman", would you point that out as maybe a reason she didn't come up with a better story? Maybe I'm just very tired... I'm off.

If it were still based on her own relationship and the plot revolved around it, yes.

 

[MadDevil]

Never mind.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

That's not true. It was arguably pretty conservative because Lucas' goal was to give young people an "honest, wholesome fantasy life" of the kind that his generation had in the 1950s, hoping that it would offer "the romance, the adventure, and the fun that used to be in practically every movie." He was reacting to all of the serious and depressing content that was prevalent in the 1970s and choosing to go against the trend. When he made his previous film, American Graffiti, he even said that current movies make us "more depressed than we were before. So I made a film where, essentially, we can get rid of some of those frustrations, the feeling that everything seems futile." He deliberately left real world problems and frustrations out of that film and seems to have carried that philosophy into Star Wars, a film that was a hopeful escape from reality. Yes, the villains were based on the Nazis and the Ewoks on the Viet-Cong, but fiction has always been inspired by real life. You shouldn't conflate that with being "woke." That's not what the term means. It means awareness of social injustice. Lucas did not use Star Wars as a platform for social injustice. Headland arguably did.

If a rag tag group of rebels fighting a Nazi-in-space regime is not awareness of social injustice, I do not know what is.

And yes, fiction has always been inspired by real life, that's the entire point. The Acolyte did not suck because of a particular ideology or because it tried to cram its ideology into the story. It sucked because the characters were not compelling (except for two) and the story itself was not well-executed.

Even the lesbian witches thing, it is just kinda there. The people of color are just there. Nothing about either dethers form the story. The plot is not about any social justice thing. Some people are just looking at reasons to scream "OMG WOKE!!!!!!!! Disney so bad! Go woke go broke" (not saying it is your case) and it is becoming more and more hilarious.

 

[Sad People]

I think the term "woke" means different things to different people. When it's used pejoratively to describe a piece of media, the implication is that DEI is more important to the shows' creators than telling a good story.

When something is good, you rarely hear people call it woke, whether it's progressive or not.

Perfect example is Elden Ring.

I havent seen a single woketard come out and be outraged over this game even though theres things in that game that would outrage them.

 

[Pranzo Oltranzista]

If it were still based on her own relationship and the plot revolved around it, yes.

I still can't compute your position. How is The Acolyte based on her relationship? (I know nothing about her, I just don't see how... even if she was in a lesbian cult creating life through magic crap, I wouldn't consider the show being "based" on that). If it was a hetero cult in the same show, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't say it's because she's hetero, that it's bad writing and that it should have been otherwise... I still feel there's something I don't quite understand.

 

[Osprey]

If a rag tag group of rebels fighting a Nazi-in-space regime is not awareness of social injustice, I do not know what is.

And yes, fiction has always been inspired by real life, that's the entire point. The Acolyte did not suck because of a particular ideology or because it tried to cram its ideology into the story. It sucked because the characters were not compelling (except for two) and the story itself was not well-executed.

Even the lesbian witches thing, it is just kinda there. The people of color are just there. Nothing about either dethers form the story. The plot is not about any social justice thing. Some people are just looking at reasons to scream "OMG WOKE!!!!!!!! Disney so bad! Go woke go broke" (not saying it is your case) and it is becoming more and more hilarious.

Being aware of social injustice is recognizing things that are currently going on in society, not writing stories in which the villains were inspired by real-life villains who were defeated a long time ago. The Acolyte is filled with references to current issues, like queer acceptance, systemic bigotry, institutional corruption, police brutality, parental control and gender norms, to name a few. If you don't see them, then maybe you're just not analyzing the show or reading what Headland has said in interviews. She even said that "there are some themes in here that would upset you" (referring to the critics). Maybe you don't notice them because they don't bother you.

I still can't compute your position. How is The Acolyte based on her relationship? (I know nothing about her, I just don't see how... even if she was in a lesbian cult creating life through magic crap, I wouldn't consider the show being "based" on that). If it was a hetero cult in the same show, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't say it's because she's hetero, that it's bad writing and that it should have been otherwise... I still feel there's something I don't quite understand.

You're not understanding my point, which is that she likely wrote about a cult of persecuted lesbians because that was relatable and meaningful to her and she probably wouldn't have come up with the cult idea otherwise. If she somehow did and made the cultists straight, though, I'd still criticize them for chanting "The power of maaannny," mind controlling poor Torbin and inexplicably turning into smoke monsters and dying.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

Being aware of social injustice is recognizing things that are currently going on in society, not writing stories in which the villains were inspired by real-life villains who were defeated a long time ago. The Acolyte is filled with references to current issues, like queer acceptance, systemic bigotry, institutional corruption, police brutality, parental control and gender norms, to name a few. If you don't see them, then maybe you're just not analyzing the show or reading what Headland has said in interviews. She even said that "there are some themes in here that would upset you" (referring to the critics). Maybe you don't notice them because they don't bother you.

You're not understanding my point, which is that she likely wrote about a cult of persecuted lesbians because that was relatable and meaningful to her and she probably wouldn't have come up with the cult idea otherwise. If she somehow did and made the cultists straight, though, I'd still criticize them for chanting "The power of maaannny," mind controlling poor Torbin and inexplicably turning into smoke monsters and dying.

Of course they do not bother me. They are part of society in 2024 so of course they are going to appear in art.

I fail to see what your issue is. Well, I think I know what it is, but at has nothing to do with the work itself. Your real issues with the work, you explained thouroughly in this thread and they are valid.

 

[PeteWorrell]

It's just painfully obvious that Headland was more interested in inserting as many themes that might cause controversy than writing a good story. Just like she was more interested in inserting her wife in the series than actually caring if she could act for her role.

The way i see it, it's difference between a great character that happens to be gay and a token gay character that only exists to fill a quota. Most people will enjoy a well written character no matter their sexuality. Inserting a token character to check a box just screams cheap pandering and it's normal to see people call it out.

 

[Pranzo Oltranzista]

It's just painfully obvious that Headland was more interested in inserting as many themes that might cause controversy than writing a good story. Just like she was more interested in inserting her wife in the series than actually caring if she could act for her role.

The way i see it, it's difference between a great character that happens to be gay and a token gay character that only exists to fill a quota. Most people will enjoy a well written character no matter their sexuality. Inserting a token character to check a box just screams cheap pandering and it's normal to see people call it out.

I understand what you're saying (I just finished Titans and just had to roll my eyes at the black gay Robin), but I don't see how it applies to this show. The witches did not feel forced to me at all, are we talking about something else? You really just sound like you're out there counting how many white hetero dudes are left in the Jedi order.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

It's just painfully obvious that Headland was more interested in inserting as many themes that might cause controversy than writing a good story. Just like she was more interested in inserting her wife in the series than actually caring if she could act for her role.

The way i see it, it's difference between a great character that happens to be gay and a token gay character that only exists to fill a quota. Most people will enjoy a well written character no matter their sexuality. Inserting a token character to check a box just screams cheap pandering and it's normal to see people call it out.

I guess we should call out every hetero writers writing about hetero families.

 

[MadDevil]

My biggest issue with the show is they didn't do enough to develop the characters to where I felt their decisions all made sense or that the big emotional payoffs landed. Mae starts out wanting to kill the Jedi, gets all excited when Qimir says he knows where Kelnacca is, and the within like 5 minutes of being on the planet she's like "f*** the Master, I'm going to surrender myself to the Jedi". Then like an episode or two later she disguises herself as Osha to try and kill Sol, and then is all "see you in hell Jedi". Then at the end of the show she's like "please wipe my memory and send me back to the Jedi". She flip flops more than a politician during election season.

Sol goes from seemingly not wanting a Padawan to catastrophically misinterpreting events because he just suddenly feels Osha is supposed to be his Padawan. Torbin is so homesick he goes off half cocked and instigates something he then kills himself for 15 years later. And Kelnacca...is just kind of there. Apparently all Wookiees are just destined to be doing manual labor with a welder in the background.

None of that has anything to do with an agenda being pushed. It's just not good storytelling. Is it not possible that the creators just aren't very good, and that is has less to do with their orientation and life experiences? Also, doesn't every creators experiences influence what they're creating?

 

[PeteWorrell]

Perfect example is Elden Ring.

I havent seen a single woketard come out and be outraged over this game even though theres things in that game that would outrage them.

Probably because the game is good and it has good lore that the player can choose to really delve in or not.

 

[Pranzo Oltranzista]

My biggest issue with the show is they didn't do enough to develop the characters to where I felt their decisions all made sense or that the big emotional payoffs landed. Mae starts out wanting to kill the Jedi, gets all excited when Qimir says he knows where Kelnacca is, and the within like 5 minutes of being on the planet she's like "f*** the Master, I'm going to surrender myself to the Jedi". Then like an episode or two later she disguises herself as Osha to try and kill Sol, and then is all "see you in hell Jedi". Then at the end of the show she's like "please wipe my memory and send me back to the Jedi". She flip flops more than a politician during election season.

Maybe women are just hard to follow?
(that's damn good writing right there)

 

[johnjm22]

I like immersion in my science fiction and fantasy.

If you have too many (or too overt) story beats or characters that remind me of contemporary socio-political issues it kills the verisimilitude.

 

[Pranzo Oltranzista]

I like immersion in my science fiction and fantasy.

If you have too many (or too overt) story beats or characters that remind me of contemporary socio-political issues it kills the verisimilitude.

In other words, no gay shit and no ethnics in your sci-fi?

That's a very weird comment to make, especially regarding science-fiction, a genre that (in its best propositions) has mostly been a vehicle for social commentary.

But still, I fail to see the witches' all female community as a distanciative element. Or really anything else in this show. You must really hate The Boys.

 

[johnjm22]

In other words, no gay shit and no ethnics in your sci-fi?

That's a very weird comment to make, especially regarding science-fiction, a genre that (in its best propositions) has mostly been a vehicle for social commentary.

But still, I fail to see the witches' all female community as a distanciative element. Or really anything else in this show. You must really hate The Boys.

I didn't say that. I like clever well done social commentary, but if our setting is a different time and place, I don't want to be reminded with specificity about the latest Twitter political hashtag.

Big ideas about morality and ethics tend to be universal and transcend time.

I think it also depends on how much social commentary is in the IP's DNA.

In The Acolyte, the Jedi are corrupt space cops. Likely because the show started getting worked on in 2020. You're changing a fundamental aspect of the IP to chase the hottest current political topic. I think that's lame.

To be fair, if you're talented enough you can probably get away with it and it's not just clunky social commentary that kills verisimilitude. The Last Jedi has a prank call joke in the opening scene for example.

 

[S E P H]

Of course they do not bother me. They are part of society in 2024 so of course they are going to appear in art.

I fail to see what your issue is. Well, I think I know what it is, but at has nothing to do with the work itself. Your real issues with the work, you explained thouroughly in this thread and they are valid.

I am probably on the anti-woke brigade when it comes to entertainment. Not because I genuinely care about agreeing or disagreeing with whatever premise: just treat everyone with respect, you know? The problem is that people/Hollywood are making stories around the woke culture and putting the universe around it, instead of making a story of the universe and then putting woke stuff in it. It is the "shove it down your throat" attitude that turns me off personally. I did not watch one second of this show, nor do I plan to, but it isn't hard to see that some of the better Hollywood movies lately haven't had any agendas regarding storytelling. The only one I can recall off the top of my head which was agenda-driven and successful was Barbie, and that movie was bad, but it wasn't bad because of it being woke; it was terrible because none of the humour was actually good.

 

[Sad People]

Probably because the game is good and it has good lore that the player can choose to really delve in or not.

You dont need to delve into the lore to find out what would outrage the woketards.

 

[PeteWorrell]

You dont need to delve into the lore to find out what would outrage the woketards.

I have no idea what you are talking about but the game is good. People will be accepting of more things if they are enjoying themselves.

 

[Sad People]

I have no idea what you are talking about but the game is good. People will be accepting of more things if they are enjoying themselves.

Literally by just playing the base game and DLC and listening and reading the dialogue you should pretty easily be able to figure out why might outrage the woketards. But clearly you didnt if you dont know what im talking about lol

Makes the woketard group even more smooth brained if they pick and choose whats "woke" depending upon if they like the content or not.