Movies: Star Wars: Episode VIII THE LAST JEDI (NO SPOILERS - Use the other thread for spoilers)

[Mr Fahrenheit]

Kylo is able to freeze blaster bolts and even stopped Rey from being able to move completely, where did that go

Rey knowing what a Jedi mind trick even is doesnt make sense let alone able to pull it off, also teaching Han things about the Falcon is groan inducing

 

[Blitzkrug]

That is the biggest factor with regards to Kylo Ren. He is currently a mentally unstable character, and training or not he clearly does not have a handle on probably the most important aspect of the force, and that is the mental. Kylo Ren may know a ton of techniques that he could recite in his sleep while not under any duress, but as soon as he faces adversity he doesn't really know how to handle it and he folds. It's why he fails to read Rey's mind after she resists, it is why he need Han Solo to literally walk up to him without fighting back in order to kill him, and it is why he fails to finish off Rey.

I really hope they do his arc justice, because Kylo Ren is my favorite character of the current saga.

Alright, now when you put it like that i kinda dig it. He's all talk, no action. Fitting of a character who appears to be in near constant conflict.

Kylo was easily the best part of the first movie. I don't necessarily think he's the best villain they could have written, but his story thus far still makes me go "i need to know more."

Personally i'm hoping he flips to the good guys, but given he already killed Han there's probably zero chance of that happening.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

There's no debate on whether Rey is a Mary Sue or not. She is. End of discussion. She's the borderline prime example of it. Anyone arguing otherwise is probably just arguing for the sake of arguing or doesn't even slightly understand what the term is. There's more evidence supporting the fact that Rey is a Mary Sue than there is that the earth is round. So arguing she isn't a Mary Sue is being worse than a Flat Earther.

The more important question though... is does it really matter?

 

[Blitzkrug]

Kylo is able to freeze blaster bolts and even stopped Rey from being able to move completely, where did that go

Rey knowing what a Jedi mind trick even is doesnt make sense let alone able to pull it off, also teaching Han things about the Falcon is groan inducing

In Kylo's case, it's as the other dude said; he's in control at that point. During the attack on Jakku, the village is scared ****less of him, including Poe and the dude who had the map piece. Kylo mows down people with ease, further boosting his ego and thought he is an unstoppable sith lord. Same thing with his first encounter with Rey. Maz's castle got ambushed catching everyone off guard. Rey splits off in fear, something Kylo easily feeds off of to make himself appear more powerful.

So in a way, Rey being an unstoppable Mary Sue MIGHT work if they continue to build Kylo as an all powerful, but ultimately flawed supervillian. I don't have faith in Disney to do that given the first movie.

 

[HanSolo]

There's no debate on whether Rey is a Mary Sue or not. She is. End of discussion. She's the borderline prime example of it. Anyone arguing otherwise is probably just arguing for the sake of arguing or doesn't even slightly understand what the term is. There's more evidence supporting the fact that Rey is a Mary Sue than there is that the earth is round. So arguing she isn't a Mary Sue is being worse than a Flat Earther.

The more important question though... is does it really matter?

I'd say not. I think the point is she and Kylo are supposed to be exceptionally strong in the force. The only thing that annoys me about the Mary Sue argument is the willful ignoring of the fact that she mistakenly released the rathtars which put everyone on Han's freighter, including Finn in mortal danger. It's not that I don't think they made her overly powerful, but the people who say she literally does nothing wrong are ignoring a pretty significant error on her part.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

There's no debate on whether Rey is a Mary Sue or not. She is. End of discussion. She's the borderline prime example of it. Anyone arguing otherwise is probably just arguing for the sake of arguing or doesn't even slightly understand what the term is. There's more evidence supporting the fact that Rey is a Mary Sue than there is that the earth is round. So arguing she isn't a Mary Sue is being worse than a Flat Earther.

The more important question though... is does it really matter?

She is not.

Discussion back on. Your turn.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Also to add some levity to what is a never-ending discussion about Rey being a fanfictiony perfect girl.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

I'd say not. I think the point is she and Kylo are supposed to be exceptionally strong in the force. The only thing that annoys me about the Mary Sue argument is the willful ignoring of the fact that she mistakenly released the rathtars which put everyone on Han's freighter, including Finn in mortal danger. It's not that I don't think they made her overly powerful, but the people who say she literally does nothing wrong are ignoring a pretty significant error on her part.

You've done the equivalence of saying "but the earth is flat."

There's no point debating something that's so glaringly obvious to every other human being on earth.

The far more interesting debate is... does it really matter that Rey indisputably is a Mary Sue?

 

[HanSolo]

You've done the equivalence of saying "but the earth is flat."

There's no point debating something that's so glaringly obvious to every other human being on earth.

The far more interesting debate is... does it really matter that Rey indisputably is a Mary Sue?

Uh. Where did I reopen the debate and say she's not a Mary Sue? I'm didn't say anything to that effect. I used to argue that sure, but after enough rewatches you're right. There's not much denying it. I'm just saying they didn't write her as having zero flaws whatsoever. Even the video above is MOSTLY right that Rey has a little too much technical knowledge from scavenging ships, but even with that knowledge she's shown trying to reset fuses to trap the boarding gangs on Han's freighter but instead she lets loose extremely dangerous monsters and almost gets Finn killed. Pointing out one hole in the totality of a Mary Sue argument isn't denying the merit of the argument as a whole.

As for whether it matters? Maybe. We might even see Rey be less of a Mary Sue this time around so the point of her character arc being a mary sue might be irrelevant to the grand scheme of things. People's issue with the Mary Sue thing is it makes Rey more bland and not as compelling. Personally I still feel the mystery of her parentage and the arc of being unwilling to accept her destiny in favor of waiting for her family is compelling and makes her a sympathetic character to some degree. I'd agree she's not the most compelling or relatable but I'd admit bias that I care about her more than others around here.

 

[Aladyyn]

Alright, now when you put it like that i kinda dig it. He's all talk, no action. Fitting of a character who appears to be in near constant conflict.

Kylo was easily the best part of the first movie. I don't necessarily think he's the best villain they could have written, but his story thus far still makes me go "i need to know more."

Personally i'm hoping he flips to the good guys, but given he already killed Han there's probably zero chance of that happening.

Vader killed Obi-Wan. They're probably going to more or less rehash that redemption arc.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Uh. Where did I reopen the debate and say she's not a Mary Sue? I'm didn't say anything to that effect. I used to argue that sure, but after enough rewatches you're right. There's not much denying it. I'm just saying they didn't write her as having zero flaws whatsoever. Even the video above is MOSTLY right that Rey has a little too much technical knowledge from scavenging ships, but even with that knowledge she's shown trying to reset fuses to trap the boarding gangs on Han's freighter but instead she lets loose extremely dangerous monsters and almost gets Finn killed. Pointing out one hole in the totality of a Mary Sue argument isn't denying the merit of the argument as a whole.

As for whether it matters? Maybe. We might even see Rey be less of a Mary Sue this time around so the point of her character arc being a mary sue might be irrelevant to the grand scheme of things. People's issue with the Mary Sue thing is it makes Rey more bland and not as compelling. Personally I still feel the mystery of her parentage and the arc of being unwilling to accept her destiny in favor of waiting for her family is compelling and makes her a sympathetic character to some degree. I'd agree she's not the most compelling or relatable but I'd admit bias that I care about her more than others around here.

I meant to reply to Argarbargar in that post..

My bad.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

You've done the equivalence of saying "but the earth is flat."

There's no point debating something that's so glaringly obvious to every other human being on earth.

The far more interesting debate is... does it really matter that Rey indisputably is a Mary Sue?

"It is the same because I say it is the same."

 

[tacogeoff]

 

[Tawnos]

There's no debate on whether Rey is a Mary Sue or not. She is. End of discussion. She's the borderline prime example of it. Anyone arguing otherwise is probably just arguing for the sake of arguing or doesn't even slightly understand what the term is. There's more evidence supporting the fact that Rey is a Mary Sue than there is that the earth is round. So arguing she isn't a Mary Sue is being worse than a Flat Earther.

The more important question though... is does it really matter?

Three things.

1.) As the Fanlore wiki puts it "'Mary Sue' is an extremely subjective value judgement." In other words, there's no objective definition of the term.
2.) But if there is, the most common one is that she's a self-insertion of the writer. Who exactly is Rey supposed to be a self-insertion among JJ Abrams, Lawrence Kasdan and Michael Arndt?
3.) The question isn't "does this matter?" The question is "even if she is, what exactly makes that bad?" You've gotta self-check and maybe remind yourself that this is a fantasy story told in a similar way to mythology. Certain licenses are okay to take.

 

[XX]

3.) The question isn't "does this matter?" The question is "even if she is, what exactly makes that bad?" You've gotta self-check and maybe remind yourself that this is a fantasy story told in a similar way to mythology. Certain licenses are okay to take.

It's bad because there's no satisfaction to the journey. The audience is denied quite a bit by the poor writing. They can 'improve' her character in TLJ but they cannot undo TFA - it doesn't really work as a standalone film. It's just this weird, rushed reboot of a movie with yet another Deathstar.

If they do nothing with her parentage or address her incredible natural talents then she's just a superhero inserted in a story for no real reason and that's boring.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Three things.

1.) As the Fanlore wiki puts it "'Mary Sue' is an extremely subjective value judgement." In other words, there's no objective definition of the term.
2.) But if there is, the most common one is that she's a self-insertion of the writer. Who exactly is Rey supposed to be a self-insertion among JJ Abrams, Lawrence Kasdan and Michael Arndt?
3.) The question isn't "does this matter?" The question is "even if she is, what exactly makes that bad?" You've gotta self-check and maybe remind yourself that this is a fantasy story told in a similar way to mythology. Certain licenses are okay to take.

Claiming Rey isn't a Mary Sue is pretty much saying that the trope doesn't exist in the first place. Because if we can find nitpicky reasons for why Rey isn't a Mary Sue, we could literally do that in every other possible example ever.

I still think it just doesn't really matter that she is (but that it's borderline psychotic to try and argue that she isn't).

You can still have a spectacular movie even with one of the characters playing a caricature of a trope.

 

[Tawnos]

It's bad because there's no satisfaction to the journey. The audience is denied quite a bit by the poor writing. They can 'improve' her character in TLJ but they cannot undo TFA - it doesn't really work as a standalone film. It's just this weird, rushed reboot of a movie with yet another Deathstar.

If they do nothing with her parentage or address her incredible natural talents then she's just a superhero inserted in a story for no real reason and that's boring.

It's a fair criticism, although again, this is a highly subjective situation. I mean, it depends on what you appreciate in storytelling. For me, I appreciate when storytellers tap into what seems to be universal to human storytelling. Characters who are just good at everything are universal. I mean, Achilles was surely a Gary Stu. That doesn't mean he was a poorly written character, even if by modern standards, having his one flaw be a literal gap in his god-given armor is somewhat eye-rolling. There's a power to stories like that.

In fact, setting up a character as invincible, only to reveal flaws as time goes on is a pretty standard thing. In an intended trilogy, I'm not so sure it's important for movie #1 to work as a standalone. Certainly #2 and #3 will not.

Claiming Rey isn't a Mary Sue is pretty much saying that the trope doesn't exist in the first place. Because if we can find nitpicky reasons for why Rey isn't a Mary Sue, we could literally do that in every other possible example ever.

I still think it just doesn't really matter that she is (but that it's borderline psychotic to try and argue that she isn't).

You can still have a spectacular movie even with one of the characters playing a caricature of a trope.

Trope has such a negative connotation, but... most tropes simply go back to universal storytelling elements. They're not really the negative they seem to be. You also clearly have no idea what psychotic means.

Again, it's entirely subjective. You can't keep coming back with "but it's obvious!" when it's entirely based on your own perception in the first place. It's obvious to you because she means that to you. She might mean something else to others. Actually, that Fanlore wiki article addresses Rey specifically now.

Rey, in Star Wars: The Force Awakens, inspired considerable Mary Sue reactions in several professional and fan reviews. Screenwriter Max Landis has said that the character fits this description,[38] claiming that Rey is excessively gifted at a variety of skills.[39] Other reviewers accept her as a "competent woman" character. Caroline Framke of Vox and Erik Kain in Forbes contended that Rey did not fit the Mary Sue profile, since the storyline explains and contextualizes her many skills from the beginning. [40][41] Tasha Robinson of The Verge defended the idea of Rey being a Mary Sue in a positive, female-empowering sense: "for women who've felt underrepresented through decades where most of the ladies onscreen were victims, tokens, rewards, or shrews, it's natural to feel a sugar rush of fulfillment over characters like Katniss Everdeen and Imperator Furiosa".[42]

So, some say she's a Mary Sue. Some say she's not. Others say she's a Mary Sue but look at that as being a good thing. Viewpoints abound.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

It's a fair criticism, although again, this is a highly subjective situation. I mean, it depends on what you appreciate in storytelling. For me, I appreciate when storytellers tap into what seems to be universal to human storytelling. Characters who are just good at everything are universal. I mean, Achilles was surely a Gary Stu. That doesn't mean he was a poorly written character, even if by modern standards, having his one flaw be a literal gap in his god-given armor is somewhat eye-rolling. There's a power to stories like that.

In fact, setting up a character as invincible, only to reveal flaws as time goes on is a pretty standard thing. In an intended trilogy, I'm not so sure it's important for movie #1 to work as a standalone. Certainly #2 and #3 will not.



Trope has such a negative connotation, but... most tropes simply go back to universal storytelling elements. They're not really the negative they seem to be. You also clearly have no idea what psychotic means.

Again, it's entirely subjective. You can't keep coming back with "but it's obvious!" when it's entirely based on your own perception in the first place. It's obvious to you because she means that to you. She might mean something else to others. Actually, that Fanlore wiki article addresses Rey specifically now.



So, some say she's a Mary Sue. Some say she's not. Others say she's a Mary Sue but look at that as being a good thing. Viewpoints abound.

I could show you a link where a whole bunch of people say that Hitler was a "good" person. Does that mean it's now subjective? (Yeah, I went to Godwins)

No. I don't believe in "everyone is allowed their opinion" all the time. People are just flat out wrong sometimes, and they need to be called out on it.

Rey is so much a Mary Sue under the specific definition that future generations very well may refer to the trope as a "Rey Sue" character.

And it really is pyschotic (yeah, I know what the word means) to argue otherwise.

But, again, I really don't think it's a big deal. I love her character anyways. Star Wars itself has always played in tropes anyways. I really don't see it as a negative. But being in denial of it? That's just simply weird.

 

[Tawnos]

This isn’t a morality question. Your Hitler analogy is off base.

 

[XX]

It's a fair criticism, although again, this is a highly subjective situation. I mean, it depends on what you appreciate in storytelling. For me, I appreciate when storytellers tap into what seems to be universal to human storytelling. Characters who are just good at everything are universal. I mean, Achilles was surely a Gary Stu. That doesn't mean he was a poorly written character, even if by modern standards, having his one flaw be a literal gap in his god-given armor is somewhat eye-rolling. There's a power to stories like that.

In fact, setting up a character as invincible, only to reveal flaws as time goes on is a pretty standard thing. In an intended trilogy, I'm not so sure it's important for movie #1 to work as a standalone. Certainly #2 and #3 will not.

Achilles is a mythical figure and not your protagonist. He's supposed be otherworldly. The issue isn't that he's powerful - he's a descendant of the gods and is shown to be quite a student of war. His 'powers' if you will make sense within the story of something like Troy. It doesn't feel completely unearned or out of left field.

Rey is supposed to be a nobody from a junk planet that's force sensitive. If she acts and behaves in ways that are incongruous with the established universe and what we've come to expect with neophyte force users - including their progression in power or lack thereof - it's fair to be annoyed with how she is portrayed. I think if anyone other than Daisy Ridley was carrying the torch, the character would be widely lampooned.

All movies should work as standalone films because it means they are internally consistent and have strong writing. I should be able to jump into TLJ and discern character motivations without having to know every intricate detail of TFA or having seen it. They should say things and do things that make sense for their character and for the context of a given scene. If you have that, you have a strong film. Star Wars movies should aim to be very strong films and not Jurrasic World level popcorn schlock IMO.

Rey isn't irredeemable or even a bad character for Star Wars in general. But, as written in TFA, she's a very weak character. The Mary Sue complaints (which is just a general catch-all for poor writing and unearned moments in general) have merit. If they want to save all the parental mystery and her failings for the 2nd movie, that's fine, but it doesn't improve TFA/the omittance of any of that from TFA weakens it considerably.

TFA starts super strong and then just goes completely off the rails into this bizarre Deathstar speedrun. I want more of the first 30 minutes of that movie in something lile TLJ.

 

[chicagoskycam]

Kylo is able to freeze blaster bolts and even stopped Rey from being able to move completely, where did that go

Rey knowing what a Jedi mind trick even is doesnt make sense let alone able to pull it off, also teaching Han things about the Falcon is groan inducing

Agree with all of this. The Last Jedi is getting some bad reviews, well just not great. I'll still see it and I'm sure it will have some good components.

 

[XX]

TLJ currently has better top critic reviews than TFA and that's without the benefit of the doubt/prequel relief. I think Rian is a much better director and storyteller than JJ, so I'm not super surprised.

 

[HanSolo]

There's some complaints here and there among the reviews and a few less than enthusiastic ones but it seems it's pretty well liked so far. Not hearing any complaints about being derivative. Quite the opposite. The universal opinion it's a very different movie overall.

 

[Paul Dipietro]

There's some complaints here and there among the reviews and a few less than enthusiastic ones but it seems it's pretty well liked so far. Not hearing any complaints about being derivative. Quite the opposite. The universal opinion it's a very different movie overall.

That's great to hear. Because with that battle scene where the First Order attacks the rebel base on a seemingly barren planet, and the protagonist going to train in a hidden location with a Jedi Master hermit did not fill me with confidence...

 

[CTC]

Alright, now when you put it like that i kinda dig it. He's all talk, no action. Fitting of a character who appears to be in near constant conflict.

Kylo was easily the best part of the first movie. I don't necessarily think he's the best villain they could have written, but his story thus far still makes me go "i need to know more."

Personally i'm hoping he flips to the good guys, but given he already killed Han there's probably zero chance of that happening.

I said it to buddies of mine after seeing the first movie that Rey is going to be the bad guy and that Kylo Ren would be redeemed, his conflict within himself is obvious, but I think, and maybe this is reading way to hard into it but Han's final "help" to his son was the look and touch when Kylo stabbed him, as if to say it's okay. That can be the last shred of light that does not allow Kylo to fall completely to the dark side.

Or just given the title, Luke really becomes the last Jedi and must fight Rey and Kylo. The prophecy hasn't been fulfilled yet IMO, there is still no balance to the force.