Movies: Star Wars: Episode VIII THE LAST JEDI (NO SPOILERS - Use the other thread for spoilers)

[Jumptheshark]

seeing a mid night showing

GEEK TIME

 

[HanSolo]

I had TFA spoiled for me in the Toronto subrreddit. Someone was just spamming "Han Solo dies" in every thread.

I mean, we all saw it coming, but I wish it hadn't been spoiled for me.

In fairness that leaked like 8 months before the films release.

 

[Blitzkrug]

Even if you missed the leak it was fairly obvious Han was going to die. Ford was pushing for him to get killed off since 1980 and i believe said in a couple interviews the only way he'd come back to the series if they gave him what he wanted. I also had that spoiled for me and was like "oh, right"

Assuming Leia is next, that's also blatantly obvious since Carrie Fisher passed away before the trilogy could be completed. I'm 100% sure she basically has to die in the movie now for the sake of avoiding headaches down the road.

 

[Aladyyn]

Anakin? He failed at almost everything he did, he is the opposite of a Mary Sue

He succeeded at killing both himself and Sidious.

But you're right, he's a deeply flawed character, far from a Mary Sue.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Rey is not a Mary Sue. Stop with these crappy takes.

She spent almost her entire life having to fend for herself, working with a junker and was surrounded by ships. She learned to fight and became well read on mechanics and how ships fly. Do we have to keep having this dumb conversation over and over?

 

[XX]

Rey is not a Mary Sue. Stop with these crappy takes.

She spent almost her entire life having to fend for herself, working with a junker and was surrounded by ships. She learned to fight and became well read on mechanics and how ships fly. Do we have to keep having this dumb conversation over and over?

Yeah, because you don't really seem to get it. A character becomes a Mary Sue through their actions, not their implied background. Luke was a bush pilot that grew up on a farm yadda yadda but he doesn't instantly succeed at everything. In fact, he spends most of a ANH nearly getting killed and having everyone else cover for him. A TFA analogue of Luke would easily fight off the Tuskens, show immediate proficiency with the force and a lightsaber, and probably successfully use a jedi mind trick in the bar after seeing it a few minutes before. It isn't satisfying at all; Rey has no real hero's journey. She's just thrown into situations and thrives in all of them.

Rey can be retroactively redeemed in TLJ if they come up with a reason for her being a natural at everything she attempts but it will never make TFA a good standalone movie. The writing for her specifically sucked ass and that's a shame because it started extremely strong. As soon as you hamfist Han and the Falcon into the story, it goes sideways.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Yeah, because you don't really seem to get it. A character becomes a Mary Sue through their actions, not their implied background. Luke was a bush pilot that grew up on a farm yadda yadda but he doesn't instantly succeed at everything. In fact, he spends most of a ANH nearly getting killed and having everyone else cover for him. A TFA analogue of Luke would easily fight off the Tuskens, show immediate proficiency with the force and a lightsaber, and probably successfully use a jedi mind trick in the bar after seeing it a few minutes before. It isn't satisfying at all; Rey has no real hero's journey. She's just thrown into situations and thrives in all of them.

Rey does not have to emulate Luke Skywalker to be a decent character and not a Mary Sue. Rey also does not succeed at everything (struggles to get the Falcon off the ground and is on her heels until she tries a desperate maneuver which is heavily implied was guided by the force, almost gets everyone on Han Solo's cargo ship killed by accidentally releasing the Rathtars, is captured by Kylo Ren, and would have been killed in her fight against Ren if not for him taking it easy on her and actively choosing not to kill her).

If anyone doesn't get it, it is those who continue to say "Mary Sue Mary Sue" while ignoring her background (which is important to understanding how a character can do this or that). Why does nobody question Luke Skywalker being able to fly an attack pattern in a ship he has never once flown, but as soon as Rey is able to handle the Millenium Falcon that is parked right next to where she works as a junker, everyone gets critical?

Rey can be retroactively redeemed in TLJ if they come up with a reason for her being a natural at everything she attempts but it will never make TFA a good standalone movie. The writing for her specifically sucked ass and that's a shame because it started extremely strong. As soon as you hamfist Han and the Falcon into the story, it goes sideways.

She isn't natural at everything, which has been explained already, and they already came up with a backstory which demonstrates why she can fly ships and defend herself. The force in itself is completely different as it requires you to buy into it (which is why Luke succeeds at "using the force" in Episode IV with very little training), which is something we saw from Rey.

Also isn't a huge theme of Star Wars the idea that ordinary human beings can do extraordinary things?

 

[Aladyyn]

Ordinary human beings? Neither Luke nor Anakin are anywhere close to "ordinary human beings." Anakin is a physical manifestation of frickin Force itself and Luke is the most powerful Force user of all time. Nothing ordinary about either. The explanation for Rey being able to control the Force so easily better be a damn good one.

Oh, and Luke's use of Force in ANH is instinctive, he's not overpowering a trained Jedi with nutty genetics like Rey did in TFA.

Rey's Force feats with 0 training are plain unrealistic. Not even brainwashed Revan could have pulled off what she did and that guy was ridiculously powerful.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Luke was a farmer. He was incredibly ordinary.

You are also attributing a lot of things to the force and at the same time calling it unrealistic. The universe is built up of a completely arbitrary and ambiguous entity that people use in different ways and to varying degrees of power.

 

[OhCaptainMyCaptain]

Luke was a farmer. He was incredibly ordinary.

You are also attributing a lot of things to the force and at the same time calling it unrealistic. The universe is built up of a completely arbitrary and ambiguous entity that people use in different ways and to varying degrees of power.

I also believe the point was not solely that Rey was extremely strong in the force, but that Ren was not as strong as he believed he was. It's not that Rey all of a sudden became extremely powerful, but that Ren is still very raw and had weaknesses, which are to be sharpened up as we head into The Last Jedi. I think people miss that and see it as just a show of strength for Rey, when they should also take into account the weaknesses exposed for Ren.

 

[Aladyyn]

Luke was a farmer. He was incredibly ordinary.

You are also attributing a lot of things to the force and at the same time calling it unrealistic. The universe is built up of a completely arbitrary and ambiguous entity that people use in different ways and to varying degrees of power.

Luke is the son of Anakin Skywalker. The most powerful known Force user of all time at the time. Nothing ordinary about that. Ordinary people don't get anywhere in Star Wars.

I also believe the point was not solely that Rey was extremely strong in the force, but that Ren was not as strong as he believed he was. It's not that Rey all of a sudden became extremely powerful, but that Ren is still very raw and had weaknesses, which are to be sharpened up as we head into The Last Jedi. I think people miss that and see it as just a show of strength for Rey, when they should also take into account the weaknesses exposed for Ren.

Rey has no training in the use of the Force. Kylo Ren has been trained by Luke Skywalker and is a descendant of Anakin. Raw or not, his pure strength in the Force and the training he received should make him more than strong enough to wipe the floor with Rey.

That whole "you can't read my mind" thing is whatever, that's at least somewhat believable. But being able to mind control a bred and trained soldier 5 minutes after discovering her affinity for the Force is not. Luke couldn't mind control people in A New Hope. If Rey is more powerful than Luke then lol.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Luke is the son of Anakin Skywalker. The most powerful known Force user of all time at the time. Nothing ordinary about that. Ordinary people don't get anywhere in Star Wars.

What famous person is Han Solo a descendent of, in that case?

Luke can be related to a jedi and still have been ordinary. If he hadn't been trained by Obi Wan he would have remained ordinary.

Rey has no training in the use of the Force. Kylo Ren has been trained by Luke Skywalker and is a descendant of Anakin. Raw or not, his pure strength in the Force and the training he received should make him more than strong enough to wipe the floor with Rey.

Should have, but at least in the OT the mental was more important than the physical. Yoda was a tiny being that was able to lift an entire X-Wing out of the ground. Luke couldn't because he doubted himself. Kylo Ren's mental status was a detriment to his success in TFA, and it was demonstrated numerous times. Rey's success was mental, not physical.

That whole "you can't read my mind" thing is whatever, that's at least somewhat believable. But being able to mind control a bred and trained soldier 5 minutes after discovering her affinity for the Force is not. Luke couldn't mind control people in A New Hope. If Rey is more powerful than Luke then lol.

Storm Troopers are simple-minded, which is why they are so useful to the Empire. That is why they are so easy to manipulate with the force.

Luke didn't try to mind control anyone in ANH, so we have no idea whether he could or not.

 

[Aladyyn]

What famous person is Han Solo a descendent of, in that case?

Luke can be related to a jedi and still have been ordinary. If he hadn't been trained by Obi Wan he would have remained ordinary.

Not true. He had extraordinary talents even without training. In ANH we are made aware of his unnatural feats in terms of accuracy of shooting thanks to his instinctive use of the Force. We get none of that with Rey. She's just suddenly able to mind control people.

Destiny/fate is a huge thing in Star Wars. If Han Solo was ordinary, he wouldn't play such a big role.

Should have, but at least in the OT the mental was more important than the physical. Yoda was a tiny being that was able to lift an entire X-Wing out of the ground. Luke couldn't because he doubted himself. Kylo Ren's mental status was a detriment to his success in TFA, and it was demonstrated numerous times. Rey's success was mental, not physical.

Rey shows more proficiency in conscious use of the Force with 0 experience than Luke did after training with Obi-Wan. Rey literally didn't even know the Force existed for half the movie. Ass-pull.

Storm Troopers are simple-minded, which is why they are so useful to the Empire. That is why they are so easy to manipulate with the force.

Luke didn't try to mind control anyone in ANH, so we have no idea whether he could or not.

You don't think he would have tried after seeing Obi-Wan do it? We just don't see it because seeing him fail to do it would be unnecessary.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Not true. He had extraordinary talents even without training. In ANH we are made aware of his unnatural feats in terms of accuracy of shooting thanks to his instinctive use of the Force. We get none of that with Rey. She's just suddenly able to mind control people.

Han Solo does not use the force. He doesn't even acknowledge it until later on.

Destiny/fate is a huge thing in Star Wars. If Han Solo was ordinary, he wouldn't play such a big role.

Rey has a destiny with regards to the force. She was shown visions as soon as she picked up Luke's lightsaber. It is very possible Rey will have some connection to either Luke Skywalker or another jedi, which would further acknowledge that role in her arc.

Rey shows more proficiency in conscious use of the Force with 0 experience than Luke did after training with Obi-Wan. Rey literally didn't even know the Force existed for half the movie. Ass-pull.

Rey didn't know whether the force existed, but it was quite obvious she was ready to believe any kind of fairy tale considering how excited she got when she was told Luke Skywalker was a real hero (and it is not unreasonable to expect her to have knowledge of jedi tricks since she was aware of the myth of Luke Skywalker the famous Jedi). As far as more proficiency, we don't really know that. Luke Skywalker was able to use the force (and not a sophisticated targetting computer) to shoot a proton torpedoe through a small shaft without any guidance other than "use the force". Then in the next movie without any further training is able to will the lightsaber to him. Like I said, the force is ambiguous so that feats made by those who are aware and believe in the force are not questioned. It is difficult to determine proficiency between the two while taking everything into account.

You don't think he would have tried after seeing Obi-Wan do it? We just don't see it because seeing him fail to do it would be unnecessary.

You can't just assume he tried and failed just because YOU think he would have. It is just as possible he tried and succeeded.

 

[Hockeyfrilla]

Star Wars: Episode VIII - The Last Jedi

 

[HanSolo]

The most common complaint among the reviews is that it's a little too long.

Haven't seen one review say it may borrow from Empire too much so I'll take too long.

 

[Nalens Oga]

When are the crowds for this going to slow down in Canada does anyone know?

Last time, it was very crowded even on Dec 28th for a matinee in Oakville but TFA came out later than the 15th iirc.

 

[discostu]

When are the crowds for this going to slow down in Canada does anyone know?

Last time, it was very crowded even on Dec 28th for a matinee in Oakville but TFA came out later than the 15th iirc.

I think it's generally very busy until the new year for most multiplexes.
Best is to aim for the less busy shows (ie a weeknight late show) and/or buy tickets in advance.

 

[HanSolo]

Another common complaint

I put a spoiler tag but it comes from a spoiler free review, regardless it does hint at plot to some extent so I'm hiding it for those who want to go in completely and totally blind

Spoiler

The second act is what makes the movie drag and primarily because of Rose and Finn's side plot which feels like an unnecessary departure from Star Wars. Saying it wasn't awful but it was overly long.

I was worried about that to be honest.

Spoiler

Splitting up the characters and having them need something to do.

 

[OhCaptainMyCaptain]

Saw this is currently at 94% on Rotten Tomatoes.

Besides the high rating, I take this as positive for two reasons:

1. You're not going to please everyone, because you simply can't just please all people. For a movie like this that is expected to be away from the norm, what one person loves, another may hate. So the fact that it's been able to have an overwhelming positive reaction is promising.
2. Assuming again that this movie breaks from the norm, a 94% is great. Movies that go along that path either seem to bust or be a huge success. The reactions being so positive seem to point towards Johnson nailing it, which is fantastic. This was a risky pick for a risky movie. Finding the right mix of traditional Star Wars and a new path is so easy task at all, and it appears that, according to a vast majority, he was able to pull it off. Even if it's not perfect, it seems like it took the trilogy is the right direction.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Jenny Nicholson said she loved it, so that's all that I need to be sold on the movie.

 

[XX]

Rey does not have to emulate Luke Skywalker to be a decent character and not a Mary Sue. Rey also does not succeed at everything (struggles to get the Falcon off the ground and is on her heels until she tries a desperate maneuver which is heavily implied was guided by the force, almost gets everyone on Han Solo's cargo ship killed by accidentally releasing the Rathtars, is captured by Kylo Ren, and would have been killed in her fight against Ren if not for him taking it easy on her and actively choosing not to kill her).

Oh yeah, she gets "captured" by Ren, who she proceeds to mindf***, mind trick escape from, and beat in a duel with zero training. Some flaws. It's like we watched different movies. Maybe you find that satisfying but I prefer a proper journey.

 

[PBandJ]

I'll still maintain that Kylo lost that fight more than Rey won it.

TFA Kylo was a kid who thought he was in a league higher than he actually was. Tried to toy with Finn, got caught and promptly shoved his head up his ass, tried to play with Rey and recruit her only to get overwhelmed. The problem with momentum is once it gets going, it's hard to stop and by the time Kylo realized what was happening, he was on his heels.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

I'll still maintain that Kylo lost that fight more than Rey won it.

TFA Kylo was a kid who thought he was in a league higher than he actually was. Tried to toy with Finn, got caught and promptly shoved his head up his ass, tried to play with Rey and recruit her only to get overwhelmed. The problem with momentum is once it gets going, it's hard to stop and by the time Kylo realized what was happening, he was on his heels.

That is the biggest factor with regards to Kylo Ren. He is currently a mentally unstable character, and training or not he clearly does not have a handle on probably the most important aspect of the force, and that is the mental. Kylo Ren may know a ton of techniques that he could recite in his sleep while not under any duress, but as soon as he faces adversity he doesn't really know how to handle it and he folds. It's why he fails to read Rey's mind after she resists, it is why he need Han Solo to literally walk up to him without fighting back in order to kill him, and it is why he fails to finish off Rey.

I really hope they do his arc justice, because Kylo Ren is my favorite character of the current saga.

 

[RobBrown4PM]

So what's worse here. An enemy were supposed to fear and who is the main antagonist, but who is actually kinda pathetic and gets his ass kicked by a newbie who has never wielded a LS before, let alone dueled a sith.

Or

The Mary Sue that is Rey.