Series Talk: Stanley Cup Playoffs 2024

[henchman21]

Not sure I agree, I suggest that it cycles since McDavid was Makar's Groom of the Stool in 2022. There was no other player as good as Makar was in 2022. You can also make the argument that Makar was better for the first series as well as he was playing out of his mind. I get McDavid had 15 points, with 80% of them being on the powerplay in that Kings series, but everyone was scoring at will on LA for the Oilers in that series.

When we're talking best players, we typically talk about best with sustained periods. Having an up or down year happens. Makar's 22 is looking like an up year, and he was utterly incredible. Even this year where he had a bit of a down year in everything but offensive production, he's still a top 5 player. Still that one up year doesn't surpass McDavid's career. He's been arguably the best player in the league every year since he was 19. You could make an argument here or there on an individual year where he was outperformed by Makar, Kuch, Crosby, MacK, Drail... but it is never that clear and each year McDavid is right there.

As an example... outside of McDavid's rookie year, where he got hurt, he's never finished outside the top 5 for the Hart. He goes 1st-5th-3rd-5th-1st-2nd-1st. That's pretty absurd. MacK (who would be in the case for 2nd) in that same timeframe has gone NV-2nd-6th-2nd-3rd-NV-5th. Matthews went 11th-NV-NV-10th-2nd-1st-16th. Drai went NV-NV-NV-1st-8th-9th-7th. Kuch went NV-8th-6th-1st-13th-NV-12th.

I don't think McDavid will reach Gretzky's 9 Harts... but Howe's 6 is certainly within reach.

 

[The Abusement Park]

Not sure I agree, I suggest that it cycles since McDavid was Makar's Groom of the Stool in 2022. There was no other player as good as Makar was in 2022. You can also make the argument that Makar was better for the first series as well as he was playing out of his mind. I get McDavid had 15 points, with 80% of them being on the powerplay in that Kings series, but everyone was scoring at will on LA for the Oilers in that series.

Yeah I don’t agree. Makar is great and the best dman for sure, but his separation from 2nd isn’t anything like Mcdavids. Makar is obviously elite offensively and very good defensively but doesn’t lap the league in anything like McDavid does.
Last 5 years of scoring:
McDavid: 610
Drai: 538
Mack: 497
Panarin: 461
Matthews: 444

Last 5 years dmen:
Josi: 338
Makar:336
Hughes: 330
Hedman: 310
Fox: 308

Forwards since Mcdavids rookie year:
Mcdavid: 982
Drai: 841
Mack: 798
Kuch: 790
Panarin: 781

 

[ANewHope]

Nobody comes close to McDavid. I think the only one who's even in the same tier is Makar playing at his absolute peak which is unrealistic to expect on a consistent basis. Discussion for the 2nd best player is more interesting.


MacKinnon has slowed down in the playoffs for sure. I think his previous level was so high that it makes his current level look worse than it is. He was better than Kucherov for example. Still better than Matthew's. I think Drai would be the only other contender for that 2 spot that's outplayed him by a decent
margin in the playoffs. Chucky has been great but don't think he's 2nd best player in the league caliber at wing. Probably MacKinnon or Drai. Makar likely takes the spot back next year I'd guess.

 

[henchman21]

Nobody comes close to McDavid. I think the only one who's even in the same tier is Makar playing at his absolute peak which is unrealistic to expect on a consistent basis. Discussion for the 2nd best player is more interesting.


MacKinnon has slowed down in the playoffs for sure. I think his previous level was so high that it makes his current level look worse than it is. He was better than Kucherov for example. Still better than Matthew's. I think Drai would be the only other contender for that 2 spot that's outplayed him by a decent
margin in the playoffs. Chucky has been great but don't think he's 2nd best player in the league caliber at wing. Probably MacKinnon or Drai. Makar likely takes the spot back next year I'd guess.

MacK had an amazing 3 year stretch 20-22 in the playoffs. In those 3 years he has 64 points in 45 games or a 1.42 ppg average. Outside those he's had 50 points in 43 games. Which is still fantastic. But it takes him from the very elite of the game like Gretzky/Mario to the Kurri/Foppa/Stastny level. Still high end company, but not the top 5 level it gets quoted at in the moment.

One gripe I always kinda have on playoff points per game though is that when we look at the past, we look at the whole carers of guys like Gretzky and Messier while comparing relative peaks of the McDavid, Drai, MacK to those guys. If we cut Mess off at 1990 (under 30), he elevates to 1.35. We cut Gretzky off at that same, he's 2.05.

 

[ANewHope]

MacK had an amazing 3 year stretch 20-22 in the playoffs. In those 3 years he has 64 points in 45 games or a 1.42 ppg average. Outside those he's had 50 points in 43 games. Which is still fantastic. But it takes him from the very elite of the game like Gretzky/Mario to the Kurri/Foppa/Stastny level. Still high end company, but not the top 5 level it gets quoted at in the moment.

One gripe I always kinda have on playoff points per game though is that when we look at the past, we look at the whole carers of guys like Gretzky and Messier while comparing relative peaks of the McDavid, Drai, MacK to those guys. If we cut Mess off at 1990 (under 30), he elevates to 1.35. We cut Gretzky off at that same, he's 2.05.

No argument from me. MacKinnon doesn't belong in that first tier. Unfair to expect him to keep pace. I feel like the media does it in every sport. Even for the regular season. It's the same with Makar. Any per game statistic is falling off unless something bizarre happens so comparisons with full careers doesn't make sense.

I've always just viewed it as a comparison to current players. No denying MacKinnon hasn't looked as good as he did in the past even if you ignore the numbers. He's basically went from as good as anyone to dropping down a level. Still not close to being a bad playoff performer or anything tho.

 

[AvBuff]

No question MacKinnon is still elite

It's just that McDavid is on another level entirely.

 

[avsfan2189]

I don't even think you can be a Jordan level cocky player when the NHL game itself relies more on depth than those other sports. In the NBA you really need just 3-4 great players on the court the whole game almost so when they win it's basically on them (same if they lose). This goes same for more obvious single-handed influence type sports like MMA, Tennis, Golf, etc.

In hockey you can literally lose a game when you're on the bench since even the best players only play around 1/3 of the game. Hard to be cocky when your team can be eliminated as you come onto the bench from a shift.

 

[wayninja]

Everyone sucks except for mcdavid. He is hockey and everyone else is just nichushkin

 

[the_fan]

No question MacKinnon is still elite

It's just that McDavid is on another level entirely.

McDavid is almost on Makar level

 

[expatriatedtexan]

MacK had an amazing 3 year stretch 20-22 in the playoffs. In those 3 years he has 64 points in 45 games or a 1.42 ppg average. Outside those he's had 50 points in 43 games. Which is still fantastic. But it takes him from the very elite of the game like Gretzky/Mario to the Kurri/Foppa/Stastny level. Still high end company, but not the top 5 level it gets quoted at in the moment.

One gripe I always kinda have on playoff points per game though is that when we look at the past, we look at the whole carers of guys like Gretzky and Messier while comparing relative peaks of the McDavid, Drai, MacK to those guys. If we cut Mess off at 1990 (under 30), he elevates to 1.35. We cut Gretzky off at that same, he's 2.05.

Yeah, those legacy years are good for running up the grand-total but the per 60 stats take a hit in almost every category.

What do you think provides the most noise here though, the extra years for the retired guys or the simple difference in eras? I mean scoring was prolific in the 80s, then all but vanished in the late 90s early 00s. Now it's rising slowly but steadily it seems.

 

[The Kingslayer]

Picked the Oilers to win it in October so I might aswell go all the way with it. Oilers in 6. Cant see McDavid and Leon squandering this opportunity.

 

[henchman21]

Yeah, those legacy years are good for running up the grand-total but the per 60 stats take a hit in almost every category.

What do you think provides the most noise here though, the extra years for the retired guys or the simple difference in eras? I mean scoring was prolific in the 80s, then all but vanished in the late 90s early 00s. Now it's rising slowly but steadily it seems.

Eras has a big part of it. Amazingly, scoring in the playoffs is about as high as it has ever been, even the 80s. The regular seasons were nuts, but postseasons clamped down.

Foppa though… he was held down big time in career numbers.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

Eras has a big part of it. Amazingly, scoring in the playoffs is about as high as it has ever been, even the 80s. The regular seasons were nuts, but postseasons clamped down.

Foppa though… he was held down big time in career numbers.

Foppa was a unicorn.

He could be so damn dominate at times that I really wonder where he would have slotted in if given a more relatively healthy career.

 

[The Kingslayer]

Foppa was a unicorn.

He could be so damn dominate at times that I really wonder where he would have slotted in if given a more relatively healthy career.

Still the best hockey player I have seen. There wasnt anything he couldnt do. Also, that white tape made him look so smooth.

 

[dahrougem2]

Forsberg from 96-04 always showed up every year in the playoffs. Guy HATED to lose.

That's why I always preferred him to Sakic. Yes, Sakic has the longevity and captaincy but he had a couple of dud postseasons. The 99 playoffs were comically bad for him, and 02 wasn't all that great either given he played with Hejduk and Tanguay while Forsberg played with Drury and Reinprecht.

 

[missionAvs]

Picked the Oilers to win it in October so I might aswell go all the way with it. Oilers in 6. Cant see McDavid and Leon squandering this opportunity.

Don't tell me that brother. Please don't tell me that.

 

[Garavar]

Is McDavid the greatest active player? Yes.

But is he the most complete player? I would probably give that honor to Barkov. He does it all, he makes the other teams' top players look like ass, and whoever you put on his line he makes them look like superstars. See Exhibit A "Jonathan Huberdeau"

 

[The Abusement Park]

Is McDavid the greatest active player? Yes.

But is he the most complete player? I would probably give that honor to Barkov. He does it all, he makes the other teams' top players look like ass, and whoever you put on his line he makes them look like superstars. See Exhibit A "Jonathan Huberdeau"

Most complete doesn’t equal best player.

 

[Alienblood]

Forsberg from 96-04 always showed up every year in the playoffs. Guy HATED to lose.

That's why I always preferred him to Sakic. Yes, Sakic has the longevity and captaincy but he had a couple of dud postseasons. The 99 playoffs were comically bad for him, and 02 wasn't all that great either given he played with Hejduk and Tanguay while Forsberg played with Drury and Reinprecht.

he was mvp of the Olympics in '02 though if that even matters

 

[RECKLESS]

Most complete doesn’t equal best player.

It will just equal Stanley Cup and Conn Smythe in a couple weeks time.

 

[Grigowski]

Picked the Oilers to win it in October so I might aswell go all the way with it. Oilers in 6. Cant see McDavid and Leon squandering this opportunity.

 

[The Abusement Park]

It will just equal Stanley Cup and Conn Smythe in a couple weeks time.

I mean Barkov is great don’t get me wrong.

 

[The Kingslayer]

Don't tell me that brother. Please don't tell me that.

Nobody on here believed me lol I was saying it on October when they were losing every game lol.

 

[The Moops]

Nobody on here believed me lol I was saying it on October when they were losing every game lol.

I always believed you

 

[henchman21]

It was popular to shit on the Oilers in Oct/Nov despite them getting about the worst goaltending imaginable. It was pretty clear that team was still good and just needed to get things to settle. When they added Henrique, they added a lot of versatility to their forward group too.

That said, the only way they beat Florida is if Skinner outplays Bob by 4-6 goals. Possible, but I'd say unlikely.