SSM Greyhounds 2022-23 Off-Season Thread (Part 2)

[DeletedAccountt]

Matt Smith is now the new goaltending coach for OS Attack.

Hey Soo fans.
Heading up this Friday to see Agawa Canyon.

Got a couple suggestions for touristy things/ sightseeing Sunday and your favorite family restaurant ?

Thank you !!
Looking forward to vacationing in your city

Sent you a message!!

 

[dirty12]

For a team to project to be competitive IMHO it would have to clearly be a team that will finish in the top 4 in their conference. At this point Saginaw, London, Owen Sound and Guelph are looking to be those teams. The Soo will finish anywhere from 5th to 8th. Likely not getting by the 1st round.

The better team of Soo, Windsor, Flint will determine 5 through 7.

Now we all know what predictions are worth so go ahead and remind me in March if I was even close.

I agree that the mid-west is best, by quite a bit probably. But, it will be tough to have 3 teams from one division in the top four, especially with there being a good chance that Erie will be pretty good too.

 

[dirty12]

I thought I would bring a conversation over here from the "Big Fish" thread. A more appropriate place to discuss whether or not the Soo has experienced lean years under Raftis and is heading towards more.

Let's start by talking about results:

Torrie:
2003-2004 9th, missed playoffs
2004-2005 2nd, 1st round exit
2005-2006 8th, 1st round exit
2006-2007 5th, 2nd round exit
2007-2008 2nd, 3rd round exit
2008-2009 10th, missed playoffs
2009-2010 5th, 1st round exit
2010-2011 10th, missed playoffs
Dubas:
2011-2012 9th, missed playoffs
2012-2013 6th, 1st round exit
2013-2014 2nd, 2nd round exit
Raftis:
2014-2015 1st, 3rd round exit
2015-2016 7th, 2nd round exit
2016-2017 2nd, 2nd round exit
2017-2018 1st, 4th round exit
2018-2019 3rd, 2nd round exit
2019-2020 9th, missed playoffs
2020-2021 no season covid
2021-2022 4th, 2nd round exit
2022-2023 9th, missed playoffs

What has been debated on these boards is that the first 4 years under Raftis were teams primarily drafted by Dubas (bolded above). If you count the results from those years as Dubas' results, then Dubas has a great legacy here and Raftis looks much more ordinary. If you count those years as Raftis' results, then Raftis looks much better. But should they be counted as Raftis' results?

I can see the argument counting those years as Dubas years. Even in the fourth season after Dubas left (2017-2018) the entire 19 year old core were Dubas drafts with the exception of Sambrook and Raddysh. This is very different than when Dubas took over for Torrie. For example, in Dubas' 3rd season only one 19 year old remained from Torrie's draft (Murray), the rest were brought in by Dubas.

We are indeed going through some lean times since the summer of 2018. Finished outside the top 8 in the conference in 2 out of 4 seasons and best finish in those years was 3rd in the conference. Our best season can barely be called a contending season. Those seasons are definitely on Raftis.

We again have hopes of fielding a better team this season, but we start without a full picks cupboard. Compare our cupboard of picks over the next four years (2nds, 3rds) with other teams who have recently had down seasons and are looking to contend again this season or next:
Soo (4, 3)
Brantford (6, 5)
Mississauga (7, 4)
Saginaw (6, 5)

These teams have set themselves up with more picks going into their contending windows, giving themselves more resources to hopefully push their team over the finish line when the team is ready to compete. I fear we will again fall short with probably another 2nd round exit. This has been brought up by many Soo posters. Just trying to provide context to the argument.

I think the success was due to picking 1, 2, 4 over four years moreso than a particular GM.
Give Torre credit for leaving behind so many picks that Dubas was able to pay a historic high price for an OHL goalie and still enough left over for two serious runs.
Give Dubas credit for hiring Keefe.
Appreciate that Raftis was pretty much all-in.

 

[ohloutsider]

I agree that the mid-west is best, by quite a bit probably. But, it will be tough to have 3 teams from one division in the top four, especially with there being a good chance that Erie will be pretty good too.

Erie and Flint are the 2 teams that I'm really not sure what they will bring this year. I can see Flint with a soft sell this year and Erie I think needs a full year under their new head coach. Stan will tighten the reins a bit but getting all the horses to run together under a new system might take a year. Either way who knows with those teams?

 

[ohloutsider]

I agree that the mid-west is best, by quite a bit probably. But, it will be tough to have 3 teams from one division in the top four, especially with there being a good chance that Erie will be pretty good too.

Also 4 of the top 5 teams in the western conference were in the west division last year. Not unheard of for 1 division to be the dominant division.

 

[dirty12]

Also 4 of the top 5 teams in the western conference were in the west division last year. Not unheard of for 1 division to be the dominant division.

Not unheard of, just unlikely if the division is truly good given the unbalanced schedule.
Last season, Kitchener just flopped while Saginaw was better and OS not as good as many expected. Kitchener ‘should’ have been much better.

 

[DWI Dale]

I thought I would bring a conversation over here from the "Big Fish" thread. A more appropriate place to discuss whether or not the Soo has experienced lean years under Raftis and is heading towards more.

Let's start by talking about results:

Torrie:
2003-2004 9th, missed playoffs
2004-2005 2nd, 1st round exit
2005-2006 8th, 1st round exit
2006-2007 5th, 2nd round exit
2007-2008 2nd, 3rd round exit
2008-2009 10th, missed playoffs
2009-2010 5th, 1st round exit
2010-2011 10th, missed playoffs
Dubas:
2011-2012 9th, missed playoffs
2012-2013 6th, 1st round exit
2013-2014 2nd, 2nd round exit
Raftis:
2014-2015 1st, 3rd round exit
2015-2016 7th, 2nd round exit
2016-2017 2nd, 2nd round exit
2017-2018 1st, 4th round exit
2018-2019 3rd, 2nd round exit
2019-2020 9th, missed playoffs
2020-2021 no season covid
2021-2022 4th, 2nd round exit
2022-2023 9th, missed playoffs

What has been debated on these boards is that the first 4 years under Raftis were teams primarily drafted by Dubas (bolded above). If you count the results from those years as Dubas' results, then Dubas has a great legacy here and Raftis looks much more ordinary. If you count those years as Raftis' results, then Raftis looks much better. But should they be counted as Raftis' results?

I can see the argument counting those years as Dubas years. Even in the fourth season after Dubas left (2017-2018) the entire 19 year old core were Dubas drafts with the exception of Sambrook and Raddysh. This is very different than when Dubas took over for Torrie. For example, in Dubas' 3rd season only one 19 year old remained from Torrie's draft (Murray), the rest were brought in by Dubas.

We are indeed going through some lean times since the summer of 2018. Finished outside the top 8 in the conference in 2 out of 4 seasons and best finish in those years was 3rd in the conference. Our best season can barely be called a contending season. Those seasons are definitely on Raftis.

We again have hopes of fielding a better team this season, but we start without a full picks cupboard. Compare our cupboard of picks over the next four years (2nds, 3rds) with other teams who have recently had down seasons and are looking to contend again this season or next:
Soo (4, 3)
Brantford (6, 5)
Mississauga (7, 4)
Saginaw (6, 5)

These teams have set themselves up with more picks going into their contending windows, giving themselves more resources to hopefully push their team over the finish line when the team is ready to compete. I fear we will again fall short with probably another 2nd round exit. This has been brought up by many Soo posters. Just trying to provide context to the argument.

I don't see how it can even be debated that our last contending window was a dubas drafted teams. it was his players, his scouts, and his player development. Raftis spent a small fortune in picks to beef up the team (unfortunately it stil wasnt enough) and has never rebuilt. These are not opinions but indisputable facts backed by the numbers on the ice and the empty cupboards off them.

You can make excuses for Raftis until you're blue in the face and it doesn't change the results. He hasn't done a "bad" job, he has been mediocre - as demonstrated by the on ice prodcut.

Petey, using covid as an excuse might be worse one yet lol. Every other team had to go through covid the same as us.

when raftis gets us out of the 2nd round we can talk about how great he is. until then... tick tock...

 

[Riverfront]

any word on an assistant coach hire and goaltending coach hire ?

 

[DeletedAccountt]

any word on an assistant coach hire and goaltending coach hire ?

Radio silence, although I do know someone who was interviewed.

 

[OHL4Life]

For a team to project to be competitive IMHO it would have to clearly be a team that will finish in the top 4 in their conference. At this point Saginaw, London, Owen Sound and Guelph are looking to be those teams. The Soo will finish anywhere from 5th to 8th. Likely not getting by the 1st round.

The better team of Soo, Windsor, Flint will determine 5 through 7.

Now we all know what predictions are worth so go ahead and remind me in March if I was even close.

you may be able to argue that the soo is as good as guelph but i don't know if they are. i dont see them close to saginaw and owen sound

 

[HockeyPops]

I think the success was due to picking 1, 2, 4 over four years moreso than a particular GM.
Give Torre credit for leaving behind so many picks that Dubas was able to pay a historic high price for an OHL goalie and still enough left over for two serious runs.
Give Dubas credit for hiring Keefe.
Appreciate that Raftis was pretty much all-in.

Sure, the rebuild would have taken a bit longer if Torrie had less left in the draft pick cupboards. But Dubas had 4 great drafts that built up the player equity in the franchise. Raftis and Torrie haven't found as many great OHLers as Dubas did, and their tenures were twice as long. Look at this list in a mere 4 years:
2011 1st Darnell Nurse
2011 5th Tyler Ganly
2011 6th Gabe Guertler
2012 1st Jared McCann
2012 4th Kyle Jenkins
2012 5th Ryan Mantha
2012 7th Brandon Halverson
2013 1st Blake Speers
2013 2nd Colton White
2013 3rd Zachary Senyshyn
2013 9th Michael Bunting
2014 1st Anthony Salinitri
2014 2nd Boris Katchouk
2014 2nd Joseph Raaymakers
2014 3rd Tim Gettinger
2014 4th Conor Timmins
2014 8th Jack Kopacka
2014 10th Keeghan Howdeshell
2014 12th Mac Hollowell

Dubas was a wizard on draft day. We were lucky to have him for 4 drafts. Obviously there is a huge development/coaching piece in there as well (with staff that he hired), but ignoring what Dubas did in those drafts is ludicrous.

 

[OHL4Life]

Sure, the rebuild would have taken a bit longer if Torrie had less left in the draft pick cupboards. But Dubas had 4 great drafts that built up the player equity in the franchise. Raftis and Torrie haven't found as many great OHLers as Dubas did, and their tenures were twice as long. Look at this list in a mere 4 years:
2011 1st Darnell Nurse
2011 5th Tyler Ganly
2011 6th Gabe Guertler
2012 1st Jared McCann
2012 4th Kyle Jenkins
2012 5th Ryan Mantha
2012 7th Brandon Halverson
2013 1st Blake Speers
2013 2nd Colton White
2013 3rd Zachary Senyshyn
2013 9th Michael Bunting
2014 1st Anthony Salinitri
2014 2nd Boris Katchouk
2014 2nd Joseph Raaymakers
2014 3rd Tim Gettinger
2014 4th Conor Timmins
2014 8th Jack Kopacka
2014 10th Keeghan Howdeshell
2014 12th Mac Hollowell

Dubas was a wizard on draft day. We were lucky to have him for 4 drafts. Obviously there is a huge development/coaching piece in there as well (with staff that he hired), but ignoring what Dubas did in those drafts is ludicrous.

look at the staff changes since dubas left. victor left for the leafs and was replaced by pat sweeney, raftis friend from when they played together at dalhousie. for most head scouts or directors of player personal, most need to scout for 10 plus years to get that job, sweeney scouted for 4 and honestly has not proven to be up for the job since then. im not sure he would have gotten the job had it not been for the personal connection between the two of them. sometimes connections are to a benefit to a team, the proof in the pudding here suggests its not in this case.

 

[dirty12]

Sure, the rebuild would have taken a bit longer if Torrie had less left in the draft pick cupboards. But Dubas had 4 great drafts that built up the player equity in the franchise. Raftis and Torrie haven't found as many great OHLers as Dubas did, and their tenures were twice as long. Look at this list in a mere 4 years:
2011 1st Darnell Nurse
2011 5th Tyler Ganly
2011 6th Gabe Guertler
2012 1st Jared McCann
2012 4th Kyle Jenkins
2012 5th Ryan Mantha
2012 7th Brandon Halverson
2013 1st Blake Speers
2013 2nd Colton White
2013 3rd Zachary Senyshyn
2013 9th Michael Bunting
2014 1st Anthony Salinitri
2014 2nd Boris Katchouk
2014 2nd Joseph Raaymakers
2014 3rd Tim Gettinger
2014 4th Conor Timmins
2014 8th Jack Kopacka
2014 10th Keeghan Howdeshell
2014 12th Mac Hollowell

Dubas was a wizard on draft day. We were lucky to have him for 4 drafts. Obviously there is a huge development/coaching piece in there as well (with staff that he hired), but ignoring what Dubas did in those drafts is ludicrous.

Without horrible luck of rebuilding in years with poor draft classes, a team picking 1, 2, 4 over four drafts will be very good.
I think Dubas’ best and gutsiest move was hiring Keefe. Keefe turned things around imo, with Torre’s final draft class, his guy from (Pembroke?), and some of Dubas’ picks including 3rd & 4th overall picks. It was not until 3-4 weeks into Keefe’s tenure that Dubas was no longer referred to as the Gord Stellick of the OHL.

 

[DWI Dale]

Without horrible luck of rebuilding in years with poor draft classes, a team picking 1, 2, 4 over four drafts will be very good.
I think Dubas’ best and gutsiest move was hiring Keefe. Keefe turned things around imo, with Torre’s final draft class, his guy from (Pembroke?), and some of Dubas’ picks including 3rd & 4th overall picks.

I don't give Torrie much credit for anything other than helping us tank lol

 

[DWI Dale]

i think the one thing all hounds fans will agree on is that the Torrie/Lambert days was some terrible hockey!

 

[DeletedAccountt]

look at the staff changes since dubas left. victor left for the leafs and was replaced by pat sweeney, raftis friend from when they played together at dalhousie.

Weird.. because i vividly remember Vic and Pat working together.

My memory serves me correctly Pat joined the Soo in 2015 and Vic left in 2018... they worked together in 2015/2016, 2016/2017, and 2017/2018 but what do I know?

 

[saska sault]

Any word on who will be our 2nd import this year?

Also curious where do fans see us in the West?

 

[DeletedAccountt]

Any word on who will be our 2nd import this year?

Also curious where do fans see us in the West?

I'm hopeful that Karki will sign soon as our 2nd import.

As for the 2nd portion of your question, ask again after training camp hahah!

 

[saska sault]

I'm hopeful that Karki will sign soon as our 2nd import.

As for the 2nd portion of your question, ask again after training camp hahah!

I'd imagine it's a playoff team so let's say between 1st and 8th. I have become so out of touch with OHL hockey over the last few years, I rely on this forum for about all my information. Need to get back to having season tickets and following.

 

[DeletedAccountt]

I'd imagine it's a playoff team so let's say between 1st and 8th. I have become so out of touch with OHL hockey over the last few years, I rely on this forum for about all my information. Need to get back to having season tickets and following.

You still have time to get them for this season

 

[HockeyPops]

Weird.. because i vividly remember Vic and Pat working together.

My memory serves me correctly Pat joined the Soo in 2015 and Vic left in 2018... they worked together in 2015/2016, 2016/2017, and 2017/2018 but what do I know?

Didn't Pat work for Vic, then when Vic left Pat took over for him? Pretty sure that's what he's referring to.

 

[DWI Dale]

whatever the chronology, things haven't been the same without Vic and Wes.

 

[DeletedAccountt]

Didn't Pat work for Vic, then when Vic left Pat took over for him? Pretty sure that's what he's referring to.

Pat was director of player development.
Vic was director of player personnel.

No matter what way you shape it up...Pat had his hands in the pot during the good times too... he was part of drafting the players everyone speaks of so highly that "ONLY VIC" drafted lol.

This idea that Vic is the only reason we "drafted good" is kind of crazy to me.

I'm not trying to be rude but a lot of the opinions on here are from people who don't even go to games, so it's hard for me to take it seriously...

 

[OHL4Life]

Pat was director of player development.
Vic was director of player personnel.

No matter what way you shape it up...Pat had his hands in the pot during the good times too... he was part of drafting the players everyone speaks of so highly that "ONLY VIC" drafted lol.

This idea that Vic is the only reason we "drafted good" is kind of crazy to me.

I'm not trying to be rude but a lot of the opinions on here are from people who don't even go to games, so it's hard for me to take it seriously...

pat walked into a director job without ever having to scout, why do you think that was. that is very rare in the ohl. when vic left, the entire staff turned over and since then the Soo drafting when from the best in the OHL to mediocre. whatever the reason, he’s running it now and it’s fallen hard. what going to soo games has to do with evaluating scouting Is beyond me. if someone doesn’t go to u16 games (which I do) does that disqualify them from taking an analytic look as scouting ability? Come on.

whatever the chronology, things haven't been the same without Vic and Wes.

That’s kind of the point. Less Wes more Vic imo but regardless, proof is in the pudding

 

[dirty12]

pat walked into a director job without ever having to scout, why do you think that was. that is very rare in the ohl. when vic left, the entire staff turned over and since then the Soo drafting when from the best in the OHL to mediocre. whatever the reason, he’s running it now and it’s fallen hard. what going to soo games has to do with evaluating scouting Is beyond me. if someone doesn’t go to u16 games (which I do) does that disqualify them from taking an analytic look as scouting ability? Come on.


That’s kind of the point. Less Wes more Vic imo but regardless, proof is in the pudding

I don’t think you can find much proof in pudding. Ottawa, London, NB, Barrie, Flint, OS, Sudbury, …appear to have good scouts because their teams had 4-5 years of 5-6 picks in the first four rounds and/or multiple top 5 picks over four years.
I consider hitting on 8-13 picks such as Poulliot, Leivo, Brazeau, Lombardi, … good luck not good scouting. If Branch thought Lombardi was anywhere near the player he became, Branch would have selected him by round 4.