So Babcock needs to go... (Part 2)

[stickty111]

Here is the 2nd thing Tulluch said about the coaching this game.

The gripe you can make about the coaches is the players don’t seem to be playing very hard for them. From the outside looking in, it really feels like the Leafs’ core players have grown tired of Babcock. We hear the same message every game but very little seems to change. I think he’s done a pretty decent job this season, but at some point they need their best players to be giving 100 percent every night. That hasn’t been the case for almost two seasons now, which eventually we have to put on the coaches. It’s their job to get the most out of their players.

We aren't the only ones noticing this. The stars might have tuned him out. Nylander is honestly the only one of the big 4 you can say is actually trying.

 

[Dreakmur]

Here is the 2nd thing Tulluch said about the coaching this game.

The gripe you can make about the coaches is the players don’t seem to be playing very hard for them. From the outside looking in, it really feels like the Leafs’ core players have grown tired of Babcock. We hear the same message every game but very little seems to change. I think he’s done a pretty decent job this season, but at some point they need their best players to be giving 100 percent every night. That hasn’t been the case for almost two seasons now, which eventually we have to put on the coaches. It’s their job to get the most out of their players.

We aren't the only ones noticing this. The stars might have tuned him out. Nylander is honestly the only one of the big 4 you can say is actually trying.

You really think it’s up to the coach to make a player try hard?

 

[IPS]

You really think it’s up to the coach to make a player try hard?

This board truly makes a guy nuts.

Since when in the f*** is it not part of the coach's job description to maximize effort from his players? You can't be serious.

 

[stickty111]

This board truly makes a guy nuts.

Since when in the **** is it not part of the coach's job description to maximize effort from his players? You can't be serious.

The Babcock defending has gone to a whole new level. We are at the point of making up things so Babcock doesn't look bad.
A coach's responsibilities.
Have a gameplan in place
Create a system
Manage TOI
Speak with the media
Get buy in from your players.

 

[IPS]

The Babcock defending has gone to a whole new level. We are at the point of making up things so Babcock doesn't look bad.
A coach's responsibilities.
Have a gameplan in place
Create a system
Manage TOI
Speak with the media
Get buy in from your players.

I really don't get it. All this to defend this dinosaur and his defense-first grinder system from last decade that he ruthlessly tries to impose on this team.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

You really think it’s up to the coach to make a player try hard?

no, they're only supposed to talk about playing hard rather than actually get it to happen

 

[hector morrison]

You really think it’s up to the coach to make a player try hard?

It would be interesting to hear Babs answer that question. I am curious as to whether he thinks the players have more effort to give,and if so ,how will he motivate them. That is his job...to monitor where each player is at.

This 'tuning out' thing happens . Often, it is the result of the players not agreeing with the coach's style of play/ or in other cases doing what the coach wants ,but not being successful. Recognizing that the coach has bad strategies/ideas/plans are not working can definitely create a mutiny.

All coaches want their players to be defensively responsible. But the guy that scores 50 goals isn't gonna hear the same words as the guy whose job it is to stop the other teams 50 goal scorer.Anyway,I feel that Babs hasn't led the team anywhere and the core guys have all heard the 'gud pro' bullshyte too many times. Right or wrong ,he likely has a job to the playoffs end...his job might be on the line then,but at the moment it doesn't matter how idiotic he gets.

 

[IPS]

Getting young players to try hard isn't exactly some mythical occulted science that only a select few geniuses like Babcock know.

It's pretty simple actually, you reward them with more opportunity the better they do. I brought up Pastrnak earlier today and I'll elaborate. When he first started with Boston, he definitely had spotty work-ethic (just like most young players). The talent was clearly there. So the Bruins coaching and development being as good as they are, tasked him with a great opportunity to play on a line Bergeron and Marchand and if he amped up his work-rate and effort, he gets to stay with them. The rest was pretty much history from there. They happen to be doing this same thing with Debrusk - they modified their already deadly PP from the previous year to accommodate Debrusk there and give him an opportunity to run with it. What a god damn concept eh? The Bruins are now running an even deadlier PP this year.

Our genius coach appears to take the opposite approach. Matthews came out as a rookie and challenged for the best goal-scorer in the game straight out of the gate. Instead of rewarding him with more opportunity, he decides to artificially limit his PP time to 105th in the league and his ES time to 43rd in the league among forwards despite being the best ES goal-scorer in the league.

So next year comes rolling around and you really think just maybe it's time to reward Matthews. NOPE - they went ahead and gave him even less PP time next year. Because f*** the whole idea of maximizing your best goal scorer on the PP, right?!

 

[ToMaLe]

This board truly makes a guy nuts.

Since when in the **** is it not part of the coach's job description to maximize effort from his players? You can't be serious.

Yea the few little Babcock supporters are dwindling rapidly. I bet over half of the Babcock supporters on here from last year now wants him gone. Guess when you see the same crap for so long, maybe it’s Babcock after all. Good for them to finally see that this is the wrong coach for this team, and it’s obvious as hell.

 

[stickty111]

I really don't get it. All this to defend this dinosaur and his defense-first grinder system from last decade that he ruthlessly tries to impose on this team.

Exactly. I think Jeffler said it best. Babcock tries to win a game 0 to -1.

 

[stickty111]

Getting young players to try hard isn't exactly some mythical occulted science that only a select few geniuses like Babcock know.

It's pretty simple actually, you reward them with more opportunity the better they do. I brought up Pastrnak earlier today and I'll elaborate. When he first started with Boston, he definitely had spotty work-ethic (just like most young players). The talent was clearly there. So the Bruins coaching and development being as good as they are, tasked him with a great opportunity to play on a line Bergeron and Marchand and if he amped up his work-rate and effort, he gets to stay with them. The rest was pretty much history from there. They happen to be doing this same thing with Debrusk - they modified their already deadly PP from the previous year to accommodate Debrusk there and give him an opportunity to run with it. What a god damn concept eh? The Bruins are now running an even deadlier PP this year.

Our genius coach appears to take the opposite approach. Matthews came out as a rookie and challenged for the best goal-scorer in the game straight out of the gate. Instead of rewarding him with more opportunity, he decides to artificially limit his PP time to 105th in the league and his ES time to 43rd in the league among forwards despite being the best ES goal-scorer in the league.

So next year comes rolling around and you really think just maybe it's time to reward Matthews. NOPE - they went ahead and gave him even less PP time next year. Because **** the whole idea of maximizing your best goal scorer on the PP, right?!

If Babcock's plan to limit Matthews' ice time was to improve his defensive play, it certainly didn't work. He has gotten worse and worse defensively. He did the same thing to Rielly in his 1st season, and we know the disaster he is defensively today.
Funny Keefe did the same thing to Lilly and Dermott, and both have become solid defensive players under him. Lilly took unexpected quick and huge strides in that area. Babcock just might not know how to teach defense.

I'm all for Boudreau or Keefe. Boudreau because he gets the best out of his team. The only thing that gives me hesitance is his playoff record, but it's not like Babcock's is any better.

Keefe is familar with some of these players, and he has the qualities that Babcock lacks.

Also lol at Babcock replacing Nylander with Shore on the last shift of the game. Give me a break.

 

[stickty111]

We are 26th in generating high danger chances in the league. How that is possible with the skill we have? I don't know.
Babcock is compressing this offense.

 

[Polaris1010]

We are 26th in generating high danger chances in the league. How that is possible with the skill we have? I don't know.
Babcock is compressing this offense.

There is less offense, for reasons I think are obvious.

1. No more Gardiner. Gardiner was fast, he would jump into the rush creating a 4 man rush or 3 man rush. The Leafs do not do that this year because of a lack of speed on the back end.

2. No more stretch pass. The stretch pass is an offensive weapon. This year the defense is not as mobile, they cannot open that lane for the pass to the winger or center cruising through the neutral zone.

3. No more Kadri. Kadri was an offensive player who created offense, for himself and his linemates. When Kadri was here, that was the strongest 1-2-3 punch I ever saw in the NHL. Not even those great dynasty cup winning teams of yesterday had centers 1-2-3 like Toronto did last year. But if Kadri had to go, then he had to go.

4. Maybe some forwards are overrated. Look at Kapanen. There is probably some real doubt in management if he really is a bonafide top 6 forward. He is a great 3rd line winger, but top six? Where is he? Johnsson, does good against bad teams and on the power play, signs that he may not be as good as advertised. It's a tough league, teams figure you out and you got to continue working on your game. Then . . . there is the $7 million . . . dollar man . . .

5. The league has figured out the Leafs power play. While on the power play the other team usually gets at least one rush chance. LOL. Point shot, jam the net. That always works. That's why most use it. If the so called diamond worked with 1 defence man, keep playing it and and watch it suck until the analytics will confirm that 2 D with heavy point shots is superior.

Lastly, why you guys are fixated on the coach, when all these changes in personnel has yielded a very different team, that is not as explosive as last year's version.

 

[MattySnipes]

Maybe Babcock is a believer in worldly wisdom?

Because worldly wisdom teaches that it is better for reputation to fail conventionally than to succeed unconventionally.

If we apply this to current Leafs coach: Babcock has built and earned said reputation throughout career, and he would rather his team fail conventionally rather than succeed unconventionally.

Now, I may even be wrong in interpreting this, but that makes so much sense. It does bother me slightly, that Dubas liked a tweet where this quote was mentioned.

But nevertheless, what's your thought on Babcock's 'apparent' wisdom. For hockey and even non-hockey. Are you a fan of how he communicates? He really does seem like a smart guy, I just don't get his hockey head coaching personality along with mind-boggling decisions.

 

[Teeder Keon]

To me ,Babcock's post game interview last night says it all ...
Paraphrasing only :
“ it was hard , couldn’t get any shots from the point , or generate any offence ..
To me it was beautiful “
I may have missed something’s , but in general that’s what he said
There in lies the crux of the problem with this team and the disconnect between players and coach for the most part in philosophy and make up of this team .
This team is not built or suited to play that style and he is trying to force it upon this group made up of high octane offensive skating free wheeling players including the defensemen for the most part .
Can you imagine Sather saying those words with his high flying team ?
It’s just not going to work
What a ridiculous statement on his part to make .

 

[Future]

Here is the 2nd thing Tulluch said about the coaching this game.

The gripe you can make about the coaches is the players don’t seem to be playing very hard for them. From the outside looking in, it really feels like the Leafs’ core players have grown tired of Babcock. We hear the same message every game but very little seems to change. I think he’s done a pretty decent job this season, but at some point they need their best players to be giving 100 percent every night. That hasn’t been the case for almost two seasons now, which eventually we have to put on the coaches. It’s their job to get the most out of their players.

We aren't the only ones noticing this. The stars might have tuned him out. Nylander is honestly the only one of the big 4 you can say is actually trying.

Nylander is the only one out of that group that is playing like he has something to prove.

Babcock meanwhile hasn’t won a playoff series in what? Almost a decade? So whatever message he has, it’s been ineffective for that long. That in combination with his egotistic passive aggressive behaviour and lack of personal accountability, it’s easy to see why players don’t enjoy playing for him.

 

[stickty111]

To me ,Babcock's post game interview last night says it all ...
Paraphrasing only :
“ it was hard , couldn’t get any shots from the point , or generate any offence ..
To me it was beautiful “
I may have missed something’s , but in general that’s what he said
There in lies the crux of the problem with this team and the disconnect between players and coach for the most part in philosophy and make up of this team .
This team is not built or suited to play that style and he is trying to force it upon this group made up of high octane offensive skating free wheeling players including the defensemen for the most part .
Can you imagine Sather saying those words with his high flying team ?
It’s just not going to work
What a ridiculous statement on his part to make .

As someone said, he literally admitted he liked to stifle this offense. It's a bad look. If he said he wants low event hockey, thats fine, but saying you loved to see us generate little is really bad. Does Babcock not realize you can generate chances and be solid defensively?

 

[stickty111]

Nylander is the only one out of that group that is playing like he has something to prove.

Babcock meanwhile hasn’t won a playoff series in what? Almost a decade? So whatever message he has, it’s been ineffective for that long. That in combination with his egotistic passive aggressive behaviour and lack of personal accountability, it’s easy to see why players don’t enjoy playing for him.

Zetterberg and Lindstorm comments when he left said a lot.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Lots wrong with what we are seeing in gameplay. This team does not play the same and the defense is not better for it and the offense is not better for it either.

The 5vs5 is worse, the powerplay is worse, the penalty kill is worse!

The worst thing of all is the demeanours of the players. They look concerned and unhappy. They aren’t having fun. Thats my perception anyways. Regression in every aspect is not on a coach now?????

Damn right it should be i think. There are so many problems going on and its on this system or whatever you want to call what we are seeing. Terrible coaching! Gross actually.

Edit: Freddy Andersen has been dominating except for a couple bad ones.

 

[kk87]

Whether or not it’s a coach’s responsibility to maximize his players’ efforts (it is), it doesn’t even matter whether he’s at fault really; if players aren’t giving it their full effort it probably means their unimpressed and disillusioned with the status quo. When you’re playing for someone who’s on an entirely different page, it’s probably pretty hard to look like a cohesive whole. Look at the Penguins in 2016 under Mike Johnston; the players weren’t themselves at all, he got fired, once Sullivan came in they took off. Sometimes all it takes is the right change of coaching at the right time.

Also, Babcock’s quote last night says it all. He’d be a great coach for a team with limited skill that just wants to slow the game down and play for a fluke win, but that quote tells me he has no idea how to leverage the skill that this team possesses. That’s not a great sign.

 

[GoonieFace]

Exactly. I think Jeffler said it best. Babcock tries to win a game 0 to -1.

Yep Jeffler is the best, he should coach the team.

 

[GoonieFace]

You can be the best parent in the world, but if your kid is a jerk, there is nothing you can do about it.

Are the whiny overpayed brats sick of mean ol' Babcock and his messgae of playing good all around hockey? Probably.

Do the Leafs need a coaching change? Probably

However, if indeed this soft as butter "core" is pulling the chute on purpose, it shows more about their lack of character than it does about Babcocks coaching style.

I am all for a coaching change at this point, because its really the only card they can play. Dubas isn't going to trade away any of his overpayed prized possessions after he got steamrolled in contract negotiations.

 

[showtime8]

As someone said, he literally admitted he liked to stifle this offense. It's a bad look. If he said he wants low event hockey, thats fine, but saying you loved to see us generate little is really bad. Does Babcock not realize you can generate chances and be solid defensively?

So are you more upset about his comments or the fact that they're tightening up defensively?

It's hard to tell on these boards because everyone wants to have their cake and eat it too.

Why can't they just give up 15 shots a game from low percentage zones & then have 30 shots for from high percentage zones.... Sometimes the game doesn't dictate that style of play. The Kings are a grind it out type of team. They are built to cycle & grind it below the red line. And I believe what Babcock is trying to say is that, with the skill on the Leafs, they only need 1 or 2 chances to make it count. Especially with how poor Quick was playing as of late.

 

[LeafsOHLRangers98]

You can be the best parent in the world, but if your kid is a jerk, there is nothing you can do about it.

Are the whiny overpayed brats sick of mean ol' Babcock and his messgae of playing good all around hockey? Probably.

Do the Leafs need a coaching change? Probably

However, if indeed this soft as butter "core" is pulling the chute on purpose, it shows more about their lack of character than it does about Babcocks coaching style.

I am all for a coaching change at this point, because its really the only card they can play. Dubas isn't going to trade away any of his overpayed prized possessions after he got steamrolled in contract negotiations.

He pushed guys like Lidstrom and Zetterberg to points where even they weren't sure they would able to handle it. Even they admitted that most guys can't. There were times where they hated each other but they maintained a healthy working relationship.

A lot of guys can get sick of his methods pretty quick and while Matthews and Nylander seem to tolerate and play along with his games for now, I doubt it can continue for much longer. there has to be a breaking point one way or the other.

If you change the coach and your top guys still don't buy in you have a major problem. But I would make that move before doing anything stupid with this roster that, if used correctly, should be a top 5 team in the league.

 

[Griffin76]

I really don't get it. All this to defend this dinosaur and his defense-first grinder system from last decade that he ruthlessly tries to impose on this team.

It's like the coach wants a certain type of game to be played. GM wants it completely different.

Dubas asks "What's your favorite juice"
Babs "Orange"
Dubas hands him a bag of apples. "Make yourself some orange juice"

Not defending Babs or crapping on Dubas. It's just very conflicting visions for this team.