So Babcock needs to go... (Part 2)

[hullsy47]

Babcock is 100 per cent correct
This team as it is built cannot win playoff games

dubas has built an all skill team
Babcock cant coach a skill team

babcock wants a heavy team to win in the playoffs

dubas doesnt believe in the heavy philosophy

this team as built cant win with babcock as coach

there is a definite disconnect between dubas and Babcock

one has to go
Simple as that

I think both but Shanahan will axe the most logical
But the biggest fault right now has to be dubas believing nylander is better than he is , not letting ceci walk after he had the chance to and assuming marner would take market comparables on his contract
Ceci for a 7 the rounder would be ok right now
Liilegren could suck for 4 3million cheaper in cap space
I stand by my American Thanksgiving week prediction
This team may be below 500 by then
Something will give

 

[stickty111]

Hayes was saying Babcock's comments on Ovi's advice won't go well in the room. I agree with Hayes.
It's another of saying players are the problem. The team might not have been thrilled with Babcock there.

 

[notdoneyet]

I think both but Shanahan will axe the most logical
But the biggest fault right now has to be dubas believing nylander is better than he is , not letting ceci walk after he had the chance to and assuming marner would take market comparables on his contract
Ceci for a 7 the rounder would be ok right now
Liilegren could suck for 4 3million cheaper in cap space
I stand by my American Thanksgiving week prediction
This team may be below 500 by then
Something will give

If this team keeps on being below 500 Babcock will be gone

If we keep Babcock we have to get him a heavy forward and a heavy defenceman. Then if he still fails you have to get a change.

Babcock will never win with this skill team. He wants them to play a heavy game and they are not built that way physically or mentally.

Dubas is in a position where he has to get Babcock what he wants if he doesn't it's going to be a long year of another disappointment

 

[notdoneyet]

Hayes was saying Babcock's comments on Ovi's advice won't go well in the room. I agree with Hayes.
It's another of saying players are the problem. The team might not have been thrilled with Babcock there.

You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out that this team doesn't like Babcock and his big ego.

 

[Pookie]

Arguably better winger options in Martin's second season with the Leafs compared to his first. He's an NHL player. However, given his contract, the team's (lack of) cap space, and his role as a non-special teams fourth liner, being a lineup fixture was a less realistic possibility with Toronto. I wouldn't say toughness was what kept him in or out of the lineup.

I can buy that. Cap space was an issue.

It's (partially) what made Kadri expendable.

 

[nbuubu]

Here is my take. Babs doesn't know what he's doing. Dubas doesn't know what he's doing. Shanahan doesn't know what he's doing. How can I come to that conclusion? I always look at the people doing the hiring. So, Rogers, Bell and Larry Tanenbaum did the hiring. I think we can all agree that none of those entities has any f***ing clue about anything. That to me = we are going to continue to suck for a long, long time.

Rogers, Bell and Tanenbaum hired Tim Lieweke. Lieweke hired Masai Ujiri who just rolled perfect twenties and won a championship. Lieweke also hired Brandon Shanahan before leaving.

It's not all doom and gloom to me, anyway.

 

[Suntouchable13]

Who goes first? Cooper or Babcock?

 

[Daisy Jane]

Who goes first? Cooper or Babcock?

probably cooper.

 

[ToneDog]

If this team keeps on being below 500 Babcock will be gone

If we keep Babcock we have to get him a heavy forward and a heavy defenceman. Then if he still fails you have to get a change.

Babcock will never win with this skill team. He wants them to play a heavy game and they are not built that way physically or mentally.

Dubas is in a position where he has to get Babcock what he wants if he doesn't it's going to be a long year of another disappointment

So you are saying Babs wants to build a team that can win in the playoffs ?? I don't think any coach can win with this cast unless Freddy stands on his head. Too bad our GM see things differently.

 

[Superstar]

Hayes was saying Babcock's comments on Ovi's advice won't go well in the room. I agree with Hayes.
It's another of saying players are the problem. The team might not have been thrilled with Babcock there.

The players think they could win a Cup this year the way they are playing?

 

[budzz]

So you are saying Babs wants to build a team that can win in the playoffs ?? I don't think any coach can win with this cast unless Freddy stands on his head. Too bad our GM see things differently.

While I would like to see a few guys who can actually bang and irritate, I honestly see the future of this league as skilled and fast wins the race. The fact is we are both skilled and fast.

But watching slow starts, getting outskated and outhustled to pucks (2 habs games among them don't get me started there), and not as engaged and hungry, is very frustrating, and that is coaching. With a basic system and work ethic this team should be in the top 5. Yet we never know what we are getting game to game.

Frustrating.

 

[ToneDog]

While I would like to see a few guys who can actually bang and irritate, I honestly see the future of this league as skilled and fast wins the race. The fact is we are both skilled and fast.

But watching slow starts, getting outskated and outhustled to pucks (2 habs games among them don't get me started there), and not as engaged and hungry, is very frustrating, and that is coaching. With a basic system and work ethic this team should be in the top 5. Yet we never know what we are getting game to game.

Frustrating.

Babs prepares the players. If they refuse to start on time, and/or are not hungry how is it on him ??

Not sure which media hockey player (maybe Anthony Stewart) said that although fighting is almost extinct, intimidation will always be a part of hockey. Like Kappy said, we cannot have teams bullying them. It pisses me off when teams take liberties with our players. Good example was Wilson last night, Domi, MacAvoy, Carlo, Marchand, DeBrusk, Ristolinen, Petry, Dillon, Weber, Chara, etc. etc. etc.

 

[Legendary]

When does Tanenbaum step in and fire Babcock

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

I think both but Shanahan will axe the most logical
But the biggest fault right now has to be dubas believing nylander is better than he is , not letting ceci walk after he had the chance to and assuming marner would take market comparables on his contract
Ceci for a 7 the rounder would be ok right now
Liilegren could suck for 4 3million cheaper in cap space
I stand by my American Thanksgiving week prediction
This team may be below 500 by then
Something will give

The team is 6 and 8 right now.

 

[killer1980]

Rogers, Bell and Tanenbaum hired Tim Lieweke. Lieweke hired Masai Ujiri who just rolled perfect twenties and won a championship. Lieweke also hired Brandon Shanahan before leaving.

It's not all doom and gloom to me, anyway.

Of course, you are correct but I always remember that a broken clock is right twice a day. Also, with all due respect to the Raptors, the Leafs are the big prize for MLSE.

 

[Stephen]

While I would like to see a few guys who can actually bang and irritate, I honestly see the future of this league as skilled and fast wins the race. The fact is we are both skilled and fast.

But watching slow starts, getting outskated and outhustled to pucks (2 habs games among them don't get me started there), and not as engaged and hungry, is very frustrating, and that is coaching. With a basic system and work ethic this team should be in the top 5. Yet we never know what we are getting game to game.

Frustrating.

When Carolina went to the semi finals they were powered by a fast and skilled forward group but what is key is they have a battery of excellent two way defensemen who could defend, recover some pucks and transition efficiently and cover for mistakes.

 

[saffronleaf]

he said Ovi's comments "hurt his feelings"

https://www.tsn.ca/video/babcock-admits-ovechkin-s-analysis-hurts-my-feelings~1816690

boo hoo

somebody finally had to say it

 

[Joedoggy]

If you keep buying what Mikey is selling ..you may as well give him another 50 mil contract...More pain!

 

[The Masters]

Dubas and Shanny are in a tough spot if team keeps playing like this. With no 1st rounder, theres even more urgency.

I get the sense Babcock knows Shanny has his back

 

[Mess]

When does Tanenbaum step in and fire Babcock

The opposite might be true and that its possible the MLSE BOD has Babcock's back.

Keep in mind Babcock salary is guaranteed and also paid by ownership not management of which Dubas resides.

Babcock's contract;

[On May 20, 2015, it was announced that Babcock would become the new head coach of the Toronto Maple Leafs. He reportedly signed an eight-year contract worth $50 million (an average of $6.25 million per season), and will be the highest-paid coach in NHL history].

So that means Babs is only about 1/2 way through his 8 year deal which means ~$25 mil balance remaining.. Which means MLSE would need to be fully onboard financially with handing Babcock a cheque for $25 mil to go away, and then have to overlap paying the next coach likely Sheldon Keefe also. Better be a pretty good case for setting $25 mil on fire to change the current situation.

Babcock is also a proven coach that delivers the team to the playoffs annually with a long record of success, including leading Canada's teams internationally, while Keefe is a young unproven NHL coach with Zero coaching experience at the NHL level.

So how would the Leafs Owners know that move will increase team success or worsen their chances of making the playoffs annually? They better be prepared to answer to their shareholders and investors that this will increase team success and profitability, and not cause missing the playoffs and tossing away playoff revenue and changes at the Cup.

PS. Its easy for fans to say Fire Babacock as its not their money $$, but for MLSE its a business and so this move of a coaching change would carry a very large payout settlement, so it better be made with that in mind.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Of course, you are correct but I always remember that a broken clock is right twice a day. Also, with all due respect to the Raptors, the Leafs are the big prize for MLSE.

There is a sea change going on in Toronto. The Raps are for real. You can see it in Toronto's TV numbers and at the games live. The Leafs are still on top but that could easily change. If this Shanaplan does not work then it might flip the tide.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

The opposite might be true and that its possible the MLSE BOD has Babcock's back.

Keep in mind Babcock salary is guaranteed and also paid by ownership not management of which Dubas resides.

Babcock's contract;

[On May 20, 2015, it was announced that Babcock would become the new head coach of the Toronto Maple Leafs. He reportedly signed an eight-year contract worth $50 million (an average of $6.25 million per season), and will be the highest-paid coach in NHL history].

So that means Babs is only about 1/2 way through his 8 year deal which means ~$25 mil balance remaining.. Which means MLSE would need to be fully onboard financially with handing Babcock a cheque for $25 mil to go away, and then have to overlap paying the next coach likely Sheldon Keefe also. Better be a pretty good case for setting $25 mil on fire to change the current situation.

Babcock is also a proven coach that delivers the team to the playoffs annually with a long record of success, including leading Canada's teams internationally, while Keefe is a young unproven NHL coach with Zero coaching experience at the NHL level.

So how would the Leafs Owners know that move will increase team success or worsen their chances of making the playoffs annually? They better be prepared to answer to their shareholders and investors that this will increase team success and profitability.

PS. Its easy for fans to say Fire Babacock, but for MLSE its a business and so this move of a coaching change would carry a very large payout settlement, so it better be made with that in mind.

Mess the rumors out there say Babs has already been paid 75% of his contract in front loaded bonuses. and for the Leafs or MLSE writing a 10-15M cheque is like you or I taking the wife to the finest restaurant in Toronto. Yeah you feel the pain a bit but it has no impact on the $400M+ June $$$ print machine.

 

[Trapper]

Who goes first? Cooper or Babcock?

Why don't we just do a quick swap?

 

[Mess]

Mess the rumors out there say Babs has already been paid 75% of his contract in front loaded bonuses. and for the Leafs or MLSE writing a 10-15M cheque is like you or I taking the wife to the finest restaurant in Toronto. Yeah you feel the pain a bit but it has no impact on the $400M+ June $$$ print machine.

A coaching change would need MLSE board support, and without Shanny/Dubas appearing before the Owners and getting them to sign off on this move its unlikely to be able to happen without it. IMO

Babcock delivers 100 point NHL seasons behind the Leafs bench and playoffs in 3 consecutive years now with playoff revenue from home gate receipts. He is 2 years removed from setting a Leafs 100 year franchise record for points in a season and a finalist for Adams Trophy as Coach of the Year. He took a Leafs team that finished last overall, and delivered playoffs the very next year under his direction. That kind of success buys you lots of MLSE support.

MLSE BOD macro manages their business on the big picture, while Leaf Fans micro manage every line-up move and miss timeout call and individual player TOI/g and scream fire the coach. MLSE doesn't care if Matthews gets 18:55 ATOI/g or 22 and if Marner plays with JT or AM and who is on the ice in the last minute of the game.

Sports is a results oriented business and both GM and Coach are evaluated on job performance on the big scale overall team success, not line by line or shift by line shift of individual player success.

So for MLSE to be onboard with any coaching change irregardless of the financial commitment they would need assurance that any move would improve the Leafs chances of team success.

Would firing Babcock guarantee the Leafs advance beyond the 1st round of the playoffs, because that is really the bar/floor that has been set by the current coach?

 

[JT AM da real deal]

A coaching change would need MLSE board support, and without Shanny/Dubas appearing before the Owners and getting them to sign off on this move its unlikely to be able to happen without it. IMO

Yes for sure. The BOD hired Shanny to run the Leafs and Shanny would have to make a case to unload him. All I'm saying is Larry is not losing any sleep on any $15M decision whether it is Matty, JT or Babs. And if Shanny said Babs was not right anymore it will call into question his leadership too. I think he would get 1 pass but after that he would be on a short leash too.