Sidney Crosby Top 5 player of all time

[BraveCanadian]

lol @ random stats. Extremely relevant stats. A 28 year old Jagr would have outscored Crosby by 40 pts last year.

Jagr - 5 Art Ross (while playing against the 2 greatest players ever)
Crosby - 2 Art Ross

I agree that Jagr is better offensively than Crosby, but he didn't win 5 Art Ross trophies while playing against the 2 greatest players ever.

 

[edog37]

5 Art Ross vs 2 for Crosby.

Gretzky 10
Lemieux 6
Howe 6
Jagr 5

There guys are the 4 best forwards in NHL history.

When Crosby has 5 of them, you can tell me that he is unequivocally better than Jagr.

Jagr being a headcase has nothing to do with his talent level.

Crosby: 2 Conn Smythes
Jagr: 0

Crosby: 3 Stanley Cups
Jagr: 2 Cups (though as a bit player)

I'll grant you Jagr has longevity & is a physical freak of nature, but I would take Crosby every day, 7 days a week, twice on Sunday. You can win with Crosby, Jagr is a toss-up....

 

[edog37]

Reading some of these posts, it appears a lot of the Pens arguing for Crosby may have only watched hockey in the last decade or so. They don't know who Bossy is, nor his impact to the game of hockey as one of the purest goal scorers ever.

Crosby as a top-20 all-time is a great accomplishment in itself, and he is still active/in-prime so there is time for him to further his legacy to push him further up the all-time ranking. Crosby in top-5 is ass talk.

Been watching hockey I remember Bossy, great goal scorer, but so was Brett Hull. But Bossy wasn't even the best player on those teams. That would be Dennis Potvin...

Crosby will only burnish his legend, but right now, he is #5 overall....Can he crack the Top 4? I'm not so sure about that, but he's firmly #5....

3 Cups
3 Pearsons
2 Messier Leadership Awards
2 Conn Smythes
2 Gold Medals
2 Hart trophies
2 Rocket Richard trophies
2 Hart Trophies

 

[jigglysquishy]

I don't know how you can say he's firmly 5th.

I have him at either 4 or 5 amongst centres behind Gretzky, Lemieux, and Beliveau. Morenz is a toss up.

I would have him behind Bobby Hull and Howe for wingers. Probably Jagr and Richard too.

Behind Orr and Harvey for d. Probably behind Shore . Maybe even behind Bourque and Lidstrom.

That's not even touching goalies

 

[Riddum]

Crosby: 2 Conn Smythes
Jagr: 0

Crosby: 3 Stanley Cups
Jagr: 2 Cups (though as a bit player)

I'll grant you Jagr has longevity & is a physical freak of nature, but I would take Crosby every day, 7 days a week, twice on Sunday. You can win with Crosby, Jagr is a toss-up....

And IMO, 1 of them could have gone to Phil Kessel. The other to Malkin. Trophies like these are popularity trophies anyway.

Art Ross is the most concrete evidence that Player A is better offensively than player B. Jagr, in his prime, was way more dominant than Crosby. When Crosby wins it 2 more times, he will be in the conversation vs Jagr. Keep in mind that Jagr is # 2 all time in points. The only person not named Gretzky to reach 1900 points.

 

[edog37]

And IMO, 1 of them could have gone to Phil Kessel. The other to Malkin. Trophies like these are popularity trophies anyway.

Art Ross is the most concrete evidence that Player A is better offensively than player B. Jagr, in his prime, was way more dominant than Crosby. When Crosby wins it 2 more times, he will be in the conversation vs Jagr. Keep in mind that Jagr is # 2 all time in points. The only person not named Gretzky to reach 1900 points.

And yet, during his prime, Jagr couldn't get his teams into a Final, while Crosby has done it 4 times, winning it 3 times. Tell me again, who is more dominant....

Art Ross is a good metric, but not the only one. Crosby has more Hart trophies than Jagr, so it's kind of a wash. A Conn Smythe is a great indicator because it requires sustained performance at the most critical juncture of the season.

Jagr has played over 1700 NHL games in his career. That's more than twice the amount Crosby has. However, if we extrapolate this out, if Sid plays twice the amount he currently has played it would equal 1564 games. The stats then show this:

764 goals
1290 assists
2054 points

That's 147 less games...& he becomes the second player ever to have over 2000 career points...

At one time, Gretzky himself said he thought Sid could break his records....never was that uttered for Jagr.

 

[Riddum]

And yet, during his prime, Jagr couldn't get his teams into a Final, while Crosby has done it 4 times, winning it 3 times. Tell me again, who is more dominant....

Art Ross is a good metric, but not the only one. Crosby has more Hart trophies than Jagr, so it's kind of a wash. A Conn Smythe is a great indicator because it requires sustained performance at the most critical juncture of the season.

Jagr has played over 1700 NHL games in his career. That's more than twice the amount Crosby has. However, if we extrapolate this out, if Sid plays twice the amount he currently has played it would equal 1564 games. The stats then show this:

764 goals
1290 assists
2054 points

That's 147 less games...& he becomes the second player ever to have over 2000 career points...

At one time, Gretzky himself said he thought Sid could break his records....never was that uttered for Jagr.

Some will say that Malkin is also a generational Talent almost equal to Crosby. Who was the other Generational talent, almost equal to Jagr, when Jagr was in his prime and Lemieux was gone?

I can find you a load of stupid statements from Gretzky.

Crosby has regressed to an 86 pts player over the last 3 seasons. I seriously doubt he keeps enough of a pace to score 2000 pts, even if he heatly and plays every game. Also, Jagr would most likely have 2000 pts, if not for the stint in Russia.

 

[Son Goku]

Some will say that Malkin is also a generational Talent almost equal to Crosby. Who was the other Generational talent, almost equal to Jagr, when Jagr was in his prime and Lemieux was gone?

I can find you a load of stupid statements from Gretzky.

Crosby has regressed to an 86 pts player over the last 3 seasons. I seriously doubt he keeps enough of a pace to score 2000 pts, even if he heatly and plays every game. Also, Jagr would most likely have 2000 pts, if not for the stint in Russia.

The number of generational talents in an era doesn't mean one is better than the other, that's just stupid. Also, if you think Crosby has regressed after winning two cups, two conn smythes and a World Cup MVP in one year, I don't know what world you live in. Jagr has also stated that if not for that stint in Russia he would have retired a long time ago.

 

[authentic]

Saying Jagr is significantly better offensively than Crosby is severely underestimating Crosby. I would at most give him the slightest edge offensively, just as I would with a peak Ovechkin, but considering their all around play it's tough not to see Crosby on top.

 

[authentic]

The number of generational talents in an era doesn't mean one is better than the other, that's just stupid. Also, if you think Crosby has regressed after winning two cups, two conn smythes and a World Cup MVP in one year, I don't know what world you live in. Jagr has also stated that if not for that stint in Russia he would have retired a long time ago.

Yeah that's actually ridiculous, I wasn't even thinking about the World Cup MVP. Any player that can win those in one year after declining is something else. Though I do believe he is not at his absolute best as a player, he is very, very close to it considering his defensive game now as well. This is like Ovechkin winning four goal scoring titles after being noticeably worse than he was from 2007-10. Only difference is Crosby is still the best whereas Ovechkin was just strictly the best goal scorer.

 

[CanadianPensFan1]

And IMO, 1 of them could have gone to Phil Kessel. The other to Malkin.

I'll never understand statements like this.

Great. You "feel" as though Crosby shouldn't have one them. Awesome. Record books don't care about your feels. He won them. There is no asterix next to those wins.

If you want to play that game, he SHOULD have won a couple more art ross trophies but didn't due to injuries. Should we count those on the list?

 

[Son Goku]

I'll never understand statements like this.

Great. You "feel" as though Crosby shouldn't have one them. Awesome. Record books don't care about your feels. He won them. There is no asterix next to those wins.

If you want to play that game, he SHOULD have won a couple more art ross trophies but didn't due to injuries. Should we count those on the list?

Anything to fit his agenda I guess.

 

[Aaaaaaaaaaaaa]

I am at heart an old school guy, but when I see people bring up Morenz or even Gordie Howe, I have to laugh. I bet 99% of the people on here have never even watched a full game involving Bobby Orr, let alone those guys.

I watched Gordie Howe and Bobby Orr when I was a kid. They were great in their eras, but Gordie especially would be exposed in this one. I am a Sask guy, so that hurts a little, but it is true.

I am not prepared to give Crosby top 5 status yet. But I am almost sure that he will be there when all is said and done.

But as for people saying "He shouldn't have won" whatever....you think you are an original? People said Marcel Dionne deserved Gretzky's first Hart. Get over yourself. The history books don't care about your dumb opinions.

 

[Aaaaaaaaaaaaa]

Also, Jagr would most likely have 2000 pts, if not for the stint in Russia.

I'd have 2000 points if I wasn't lazy, if was taller, if I was more talented, and didn't eat bacon at every meal.

You either have it or you don't. No one cares why or why not. Every player has what-ifs.

 

[CanadianPensFan1]

I'd have 2000 points if I wasn't lazy, if was taller, if I was more talented, and didn't eat bacon at every meal.

You either have it or you don't. No one cares why or why not. Every player has what-ifs.

Jesus h Christ. This.

 

[FinProspects]

100p season
Another top5 scoring finish
Top3 Hart finish most likely

Another impressive season for Sid - What kind of effect (if any) does it have to his legacy/all time rank?

 

[GreatGonzo]

And yet, during his prime, Jagr couldn't get his teams into a Final, while Crosby has done it 4 times, winning it 3 times. Tell me again, who is more dominant....

Art Ross is a good metric, but not the only one. Crosby has more Hart trophies than Jagr, so it's kind of a wash. A Conn Smythe is a great indicator because it requires sustained performance at the most critical juncture of the season.

Jagr has played over 1700 NHL games in his career. That's more than twice the amount Crosby has. However, if we extrapolate this out, if Sid plays twice the amount he currently has played it would equal 1564 games. The stats then show this:

764 goals
1290 assists
2054 points

That's 147 less games...& he becomes the second player ever to have over 2000 career points...

At one time, Gretzky himself said he thought Sid could break his records....never was that uttered for Jagr.

You clearly never watched those Pen teams that’s Jagr had. Crosby has had SIGNIFICANTLY better teams than Jagr did after Lemieux left and when he was hitting his peak. You can’t compare those teams and use it to benefit Crosby for “leading” his team. It’s much easier to “lead” with players like Malkin, Kessel, and Letang on your team, wouldn’t you say? I mean was Crosby suddenly not a great leader from 2010-15? No, he just needed more help. Leadership is Way emphasized and far to romanticized.

Crosby only has 1 more Hart than Jagr while having the same amount amount of Pearson’s. He was also a Hart Finalists 4 times and a Pearson Finalists 4 times from ‘95-‘01 while winning 5 Scoring titles having much greater competition overall than Crosby. He was clearly more dominant at his peak, and mainly without Lemieux on a inferior team.

Sid does have better playoff success than Jagr, who still is no slouch in that department.....but it’s honestly hard for anyone to say Crosby is clearly better than Jagr. It’s very close between them either way you try to spin it.

I'll never understand statements like this.

Great. You "feel" as though Crosby shouldn't have one them. Awesome. Record books don't care about your feels. He won them. There is no asterix next to those wins.

If you want to play that game, he SHOULD have won a couple more art ross trophies but didn't due to injuries. Should we count those on the list?

it’s the context of his “dominance” and although not a strong one.....it’s still very easy to dismiss the controversy that surrounded both and the lack of cementing his title.

Crosby has 2 smythes with Lemieux and Gretzky....that sounds and looks amazing, but Crosby didn’t win his in the same fashion as the others. Crosby never dominated like Howe, Orr, Gretzky, or Lemieux did overall, and IMO sits mixed with various others for that top 5 spot. If he is considered top 5, he’s still a clear distance from the big 4.

 

[HockeySniper]

This is why people hate Crosby because of nonsense like this. He’s a top 20 player no matter which way you cut it and I’d say around the 10 spot right now. But 5? Cmon now. Half the season he wasn’t even considered a top 5 player by many. Put a little Malkin asterisk next to his name

 

[Plural]

100p season
Another top5 scoring finish
Top3 Hart finish most likely

Another impressive season for Sid - What kind of effect (if any) does it have to his legacy/all time rank?

It does move the needle IMO. Not necessarily enough for him to overtake anyone ahead of him in my all-time list but it certainly provides more meat around the bones. I'd say he's comfortably top-15 and possibly top-10. Few more seasons like this and he's comfortably top-10 and starting to be in the argument with Beliveau for the 3rd greatest C ever.

 

[Fantomas]

I'd have 2000 points if I wasn't lazy, if was taller, if I was more talented, and didn't eat bacon at every meal.

Jagr eats bacon with every meal? If true I'm afraid I'm gonna have to officially proclaim him the GOAT.

 

[Gunnersaurus Rex]

This is why people hate Crosby because of nonsense like this. He’s a top 20 player no matter which way you cut it and I’d say around the 10 spot right now. But 5? Cmon now. Half the season he wasn’t even considered a top 5 player by many. Put a little Malkin asterisk next to his name

Thank you !!!

 

[DitchMarner]

If he keeps going like this for a few more years, I'm sure it wouldn't be silly to call him the fifth greatest player ever. But on a per game basis, this season is his best (or second best at worst) since his last Hart season, which was five years ago. Can he really follow it up with another season of the same quality next year? It will be hard considering his age.

I'd rank his post 2014 seasons as such:

2017 or 2019
2017 or 2019
2016
2015
2018

 

[T REX]

And yet, during his prime, Jagr couldn't get his teams into a Final,

All you have to do is look at McDavid right now. He's not making a final anytime soon.

 

[DitchMarner]

All you have to do is look at McDavid right now. He's not making a final anytime soon.

Look at his roster... lol. Do you think anyone else would be able to get that roster to a SCF?

 

[Gunnersaurus Rex]

I think at the end of his career, Crosby will be similar to Phil Esposito in points. Espo won 2 Harts, 3 Art Ross & 2 Lindseys, also very comparable to Crosby. The only difference being the Stanley Cups. So that would in my opinion put Crosby around 8-10 all time for forwards and maybe top 20-25 for all time players. Maybe. Will be interesting to see what happens as the Pens decline in the next few years and as Crosby ages.