Sidney Crosby Top 5 player of all time

[Plural]

That's where we disagree. When I speak of the past I'm not talking the Ron Francis era as the past. I'm talking pre Gretzky. And I'm not talking about the 20th best player I'm talking players like Doug Harvey who won 6 or 7 straight Norris trophies. His name rarely even pops up in these discussions.
Many base their reasoning on all time scoring but those players played 50 games seasons. Of course their career numbers will be much lower. A 20 goal season was considered an accomplishment back then.

Harvey won 4 straight Norris trophies and 7 overall. But your point stands. I like to think that I have maybe more than just surface understanding of players throughout NHL history, so I don't dismiss Harvey, Morenz, Shore or anyone else. That said, I think there's a good chance that Sid ends up in the discussion for the 5th greatest player ever. Along with Hull, Beliveau, Harvey, Shore, Richard and possibly Roy and Hasek. Doesn't mean he's going to be the consensus pick for that spot, but he's looking like a guy who can be penciled there and it won't look ridiculous.

 

[Future GOAT]

He's probably in the top 10 range.

 

[Son Goku]

Crosby is currently 5th best of all time IMO.

If McDavid stays healthy and has a full career Crosby will be relegated to 6th eventually.

lol that's a little ridiculous. Mcdavid will be lucky to ever match Crosby.

 

[Plural]

lol that's a little ridiculous. Mcdavid will be lucky to ever match Crosby.

I guess anything can happen with player like McDavid, but the odds are he's not matching Sid. Malkin and Ovechkin are both high end Hall of Famers and most legendary guys would have their work cut out to just beat them. Crosby is on another plane.

Odds are slim McDavid will outdo him. Possible? Yes. But extremely unlikely.

 

[Go Wings]

Great post.

Demonstrates my point that it is becoming increasingly difficult to make a coherent argument that Crosby isn't headed for the top 10 (and potentially as high as 5th). Bonus points if you respond by dismissing me as a fanboy.

You asked what Beliveau had on Crosby and I said class, was I wrong...no.

Jean Beliveau will ALWAYS be remembered as one of the classiest players/guys this league has ever seen.

I never said Crosby wasnt headed for top 10, what I will say is no one is ever going to remember him as a classy player or person.

You and everyone else might not give a **** and thats fine. But that is what Beliveau has on him that and the fact he is universally loved and respected.

Crosby is not and never will be.

 

[JadedRandom]

I don't mean any disrespect to Crosby, but right now, even with all his hardaware and his cups, he is closer to 15th or even 20th all-time than he is to #5.

Go into the history of hockey board and read about the all-time greats for a bit, you'll see that although what Crosby accomplished is great, there are quite a few others who have just as many accolades as him and even more.

Seriously, I get that there is a lot of recency bias on Hfboards (with a name like hockey's future I'd be surprised if it wasn't the case), but try and put things into perspective a bit and infrom yoursleves on the all-time greats.

As of now, Crosby is probably the best player on the planet and has been for a good long while, but he'll need more longevity and even more personal greatness, trophies (and rings) to match up against the other contenders for the 5th spot on an all-time list.

 

[Plural]

I don't mean any disrespect to Crosby, but right now, even with all his hardaware and his cups, he is closer to 15th or even 20th all-time than he is to #5.

Go into the history of hockey board and read about the all-time greats for a bit, you'll see that although what Crosby accomplished is great, there are quite a few others who have just as many accolades as him and even more.

Seriously, I get that there is a lot of recency bias on Hfboards (with a name like hockey's future I'd be surprised if it wasn't the case), but try and put things into perspective a bit and infrom yoursleves on the all-time greats.

As of now, Crosby is probably the best player on the planet and has been for a good long while, but he'll need more longevity and even more personal greatness, trophies (and rings) to match up against the other contenders for the 5th spot on an all-time list.

I'm not saying you're right or wrong here, but the bolded part is not really disputing a lot of people. Being closer to 15th than 5th could easily be interpreted as Crosby being somewhere around top-10, which seems to be pretty popular opinion.

 

[Son Goku]

Crosby has one of the biggest trophy cases in the history of hockey and somehow Mcdavid is going to blow away Crosby AINEC. Like they said, you won't last with that attitude.

 

[JAS 39 Gripen]

If he played for the Leafs, I would say....yes, of course.

 

[Riddum]

Crosby isn't even as good as Jagr in his prime



2015-2016 Crosby: 80GP 36G 49A 85PTS
2015-2016 Jagr : 79GP 27G 39A 66PTS

We're talking about the supposedly 5th best player of all time, in his prime, barely outscoring a 44 year old washed up man, who was a shell of his former self. Give me a break with this Crosby talk.

28 year old Jagr would have crushed Crosby and won the Art Ross.

 

[b in vancouver]

I'm sorry there's is 0 chance bossy and crosby have similar careers. Crosby blows bossy out of the water when it comes to accomplishments. Yes bossy faced gretzky but that doesn't matter because if we remove gretzky bossy still comes no where close.

Were talking

2 harts (6 time finalist)
2 art ross (8 times top 3)
2 Smythes
3 Lindsay's ( 5 time finalist)
2 Richards

Vs
1 Smythe
2 Richards

It's not close

The four straight Stanley Cups and the Finals the following year? 50 goals for 9 straight seasons?
Probably the purest goal-scorer to ever grace the game.
Crosby will surpass Bossy - but he simply hasn't yet.

He's should have a lot of years left and will most likely cement himself in the top 10 at some point but at the moment he's not as high as you'd think.
He just hasn't dominated as much as a lot of these other players did.

 

[b in vancouver]

Harvey won 4 straight Norris trophies and 7 overall. But your point stands. I like to think that I have maybe more than just surface understanding of players throughout NHL history, so I don't dismiss Harvey, Morenz, Shore or anyone else. That said, I think there's a good chance that Sid ends up in the discussion for the 5th greatest player ever. Along with Hull, Beliveau, Harvey, Shore, Richard and possibly Roy and Hasek. Doesn't mean he's going to be the consensus pick for that spot, but he's looking like a guy who can be penciled there and it won't look ridiculous.

I think if his career hadn't been side-tracked a bit he could have. I like Crosby (I really do - no kidding - he's one of my favourite players to watch in the league along with Bergeron as they just do everything 'right') but he just hasn't had as good of a career as he could have. I thought he'd be challenging the top 4. It just hasn't panned out that way. At the end of the day I think he'll be around 10-15 or so. That's an amazing accomplishment. That's not being nostalgic nor reminiscing - he unfortunately (and I wish him and Ovy both had) hasn't separated himself from the pack nor revolutionized the game as much as a lot of these other players did.

 

[edog37]

I don't mean any disrespect to Crosby, but right now, even with all his hardaware and his cups, he is closer to 15th or even 20th all-time than he is to #5.

Go into the history of hockey board and read about the all-time greats for a bit, you'll see that although what Crosby accomplished is great, there are quite a few others who have just as many accolades as him and even more.

Seriously, I get that there is a lot of recency bias on Hfboards (with a name like hockey's future I'd be surprised if it wasn't the case), but try and put things into perspective a bit and infrom yoursleves on the all-time greats.

As of now, Crosby is probably the best player on the planet and has been for a good long while, but he'll need more longevity and even more personal greatness, trophies (and rings) to match up against the other contenders for the 5th spot on an all-time list.

There is always recency bias on these boards, but there can be historical bias as well. When athletes are competing against only 5 other teams, the level of play will be fairly consistent. Compete against 30 other teams, & you face a different level of competition each night. Different systems, different mentalities, different talent levels. When the NHL played the Soviets during the 70s, they were throttled into reality. Another country could skate with Canada & take them to the limit. This isn't so much an issue any longer since the league has absorbed this talent for about 30 years now, but today's athlete faces far greater challenges than a player back in the 50s & 60s faced. Does it lessen what those guys did? No, but the game has changed fundamentally. Guys like Lemieux, Gretzky, & Orr would fit into today's NHL quite nicely & continue their high level of play. Those guys transcended the game & were years ahead of their time. But as for the rest, I don't think you could import a prime Jean Bealiveau or a Rocket Richard into today's game & expect they produce at those levels they once did....

 

[Son Goku]

Crosby isn't even as good as Jagr in his prime



2015-2016 Crosby: 80GP 36G 49A 85PTS
2015-2016 Jagr : 79GP 27G 39A 66PTS

We're talking about the supposedly 5th best player of all time, in his prime, barely outscoring a 44 year old washed up man, who was a shell of his former self. Give me a break with this Crosby talk.

28 year old Jagr would have crushed Crosby and won the Art Ross.

Thanks for the two highlight real videos and a random stat from two seasons ago where he had his worst season ever thinks to Johnston LOL. Anything of substance you'd like to add?

 

[b in vancouver]

There is always recency bias on these boards, but there can be historical bias as well. When athletes are competing against only 5 other teams, the level of play will be fairly consistent. Compete against 30 other teams, & you face a different level of competition each night. Different systems, different mentalities, different talent levels. When the NHL played the Soviets during the 70s, they were throttled into reality. Another country could skate with Canada & take them to the limit. This isn't so much an issue any longer since the league has absorbed this talent for about 30 years now, but today's athlete faces far greater challenges than a player back in the 50s & 60s faced. Does it lessen what those guys did? No, but the game has changed fundamentally. Guys like Lemieux, Gretzky, & Orr would fit into today's NHL quite nicely & continue their high level of play. Those guys transcended the game & were years ahead of their time. But as for the rest, I don't think you could import a prime Jean Bealiveau or a Rocket Richard intone l today's game & expect they produce at those levels they once did....

That is all very true. Gretzky preyed on #5, #6 d-men who wouldn't even be in the AHL nowadays...

But! - the only way to think about it is to compare them to their peers. They faced the same challenges as everyone they played against - yet elevated the game or found unbelievable success.

Nowadays Howe would get a penalty every shift. Orr would have proper knee surgery. You'd be hard-pressed to find three consecutive shifts of Lemieux that wouldn't be him drawing a penalty nowadays (water-skiing). Stevens would've got 20 games for targeting Lindros's head. (he who shall not be named) would've had a lifetime ban for kneeing Neely (and others). Esposito wouldn't have taken so many cross-checks to the back in front of the net. Kariya wouldn't have been done in by Suter. Sakic never would have had time to unleash his wrist-shot. Messier would've been suspended.
The list goes on and on.

The guys at the top of the all-time lists are very very good. Crosby was poised to make it into that elite group but just never did. Still might - but it's uphill for him now.

p.s. take the top players from 30 teams and make 6 teams. It works that way also. Best of the best. Take the top 24 centres and 36 d-men and best 6 goalies and 48 wingers and make them play each other for 72 games. - see who stands out.

 

[daver]

For some serious discussion on this, go to the HOH Board.

I would say the consensus is he is #12-15 and on the same tier as players above him save for the Big Four.

 

[NoMessi]

For some serious discussion on this, go to the HOH Board.

I would say the consensus is he is #12-15 and on the same tier as players above him save for the Big Four.

12-15 is not overrating him that much Imo. I might have him a notch lower, but that is probably mostly because its hard to rank a player when he is still active.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

The four straight Stanley Cups and the Finals the following year? 50 goals for 9 straight seasons?
Probably the purest goal-scorer to ever grace the game.
Crosby will surpass Bossy - but he simply hasn't yet.

He's should have a lot of years left and will most likely cement himself in the top 10 at some point but at the moment he's not as high as you'd think.
He just hasn't dominated as much as a lot of these other players did.

Your using domination against crosby and saying he hasn't passed
Bossy yet...

Scoring finishes
Crosby 1 1 2 2 3 3 3 3 6
Bossy 2 4 4 4 5 5 6 6

Hart finishes
Crosby 1 1 2 2 2 3 5 6
Bossy 3 4 6 6 7 10

Crosby is a MUCH more dominating player so your post is really contradicting itself.

 

[Riddum]

Thanks for the two highlight real videos and a random stat from two seasons ago where he had his worst season ever thinks to Johnston LOL. Anything of substance you'd like to add?

lol @ random stats. Extremely relevant stats. A 28 year old Jagr would have outscored Crosby by 40 pts last year.

Jagr - 5 Art Ross (while playing against the 2 greatest players ever)
Crosby - 2 Art Ross

 

[JackSlater]

I'm sorry there's is 0 chance bossy and crosby have similar careers. Crosby blows bossy out of the water when it comes to accomplishments. Yes bossy faced gretzky but that doesn't matter because if we remove gretzky bossy still comes no where close.

Were talking

2 harts (6 time finalist)
2 art ross (8 times top 3)
2 Smythes
3 Lindsay's ( 5 time finalist)
2 Richards

Vs
1 Smythe
2 Richards

It's not close

You mentioned taking Gretzky for Bossy's benefit... and then you didn't show the results without Gretzky. Without Gretzky Bossy wins the Art Ross in 1982 and probably finishes second to Lemieux in 1986. Considering Gretzky's influence on goal scoring both because of his own totals and also Kurri's, Bossy wins a third Richard in 1982 and possibly three more depending on how many goals Kurri loses. Bossy probably doesn't win a Hart, but he probably gains two or maybe three spots as a finalist.

Gretzky and Lemieux deflated the trophy cases of pretty much everyone in the NHL in the 1980s and parts of the 1990s. I do agree that Bossy isn't as good as Crosby though.

 

[edog37]

That is all very true. Gretzky preyed on #5, #6 d-men who wouldn't even be in the AHL nowadays...

But! - the only way to think about it is to compare them to their peers. They faced the same challenges as everyone they played against - yet elevated the game or found unbelievable success.

Nowadays Howe would get a penalty every shift. Orr would have proper knee surgery. You'd be hard-pressed to find three consecutive shifts of Lemieux that wouldn't be him drawing a penalty nowadays (water-skiing). Stevens would've got 20 games for targeting Lindros's head. (he who shall not be named) would've had a lifetime ban for kneeing Neely (and others). Esposito wouldn't have taken so many cross-checks to the back in front of the net. Kariya wouldn't have been done in by Suter. Sakic never would have had time to unleash his wrist-shot. Messier would've been suspended.
The list goes on and on.

The guys at the top of the all-time lists are very very good. Crosby was poised to make it into that elite group but just never did. Still might - but it's uphill for him now.

p.s. take the top players from 30 teams and make 6 teams. It works that way also. Best of the best. Take the top 24 centres and 36 d-men and best 6 goalies and 48 wingers and make them play each other for 72 games. - see who stands out.

It's not that simple. The draft/assignment rules back then were incredibly screwy. It was completely territorial & a lot of collusion between the owners. It wasn't just the best talent available dispersed amongst 6 teams. They could lock out guys if they so chose with no blowback what so ever. Even given the larger amount of teams today, the talent pool so much wider. That's what tips the scales to today's rosters....

 

[edog37]

Crosby isn't even as good as Jagr in his prime



2015-2016 Crosby: 80GP 36G 49A 85PTS
2015-2016 Jagr : 79GP 27G 39A 66PTS

We're talking about the supposedly 5th best player of all time, in his prime, barely outscoring a 44 year old washed up man, who was a shell of his former self. Give me a break with this Crosby talk.

28 year old Jagr would have crushed Crosby and won the Art Ross.

Crosby in his prime is far better than Jagr ever was. Jagr was temperamental & a head case....

 

[armani]

Reading some of these posts, it appears a lot of the Pens arguing for Crosby may have only watched hockey in the last decade or so. They don't know who Bossy is, nor his impact to the game of hockey as one of the purest goal scorers ever.

Crosby as a top-20 all-time is a great accomplishment in itself, and he is still active/in-prime so there is time for him to further his legacy to push him further up the all-time ranking. Crosby in top-5 is ass talk.

 

[Weztex]

I should've said 'teammate'. Same goes for Dickie Moore.

And we just disagree about this.

Look I loved Mike Bossy. He was incredible. He only played 10 seasons and was Crosby's age when he retired. 4 Stanley Cups. Another final. 9 straight years scoring over 50 goals.
573 goals and 1126 points in 752 games. Conn Smythe. Calder. (Rocket) twice (someone else - can't remember who outscored him in the 80s) First team all-star 5 times.

Once again, Bossy is one of my all-time favourite players and the early 80s Islanders is one of my favourite Teams of all-time.

At the moment they have comparable careers with the edge in Bossy's favour. And Bossy has a tough time cracking the top 20.

Reading some of these posts, it appears a lot of the Pens arguing for Crosby may have only watched hockey in the last decade or so. They don't know who Bossy is, nor his impact to the game of hockey as one of the purest goal scorers ever.

Crosby as a top-20 all-time is a great accomplishment in itself, and he is still active/in-prime so there is time for him to further his legacy to push him further up the all-time ranking. Crosby in top-5 is ass talk.

I have nothing against Bossy. But whenever I (or anybody) tried to come up with ajustements/normalizations between eras, he always is one of the player who suffers from it the most. As good a goal scorer as he was, in a best case scenario, removing Gretzky of the picture, his career would hover a little under someone like Ovechkin. Now I really doubt anybody would rank Ovi ahead of Crosby, so I'm not sure what would be the reasoning for Bossy to be over both.

 

[Riddum]

Crosby in his prime is far better than Jagr ever was. Jagr was temperamental & a head case....

5 Art Ross vs 2 for Crosby.

Gretzky 10
Lemieux 6
Howe 6
Jagr 5

There guys are the 4 best forwards in NHL history.

When Crosby has 5 of them, you can tell me that he is unequivocally better than Jagr.

Jagr being a headcase has nothing to do with his talent level.