He has more Cups than 2 of the Big Four and three times as many as the HOH #5 player: Bobby Hull.
It is ridiculous to ignore that he arguably has the best resume before the age of 30 than any non Big 4 player.
Sidney Crosby Top 5 player of all time
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He has more Cups than 2 of the Big Four and three times as many as the HOH #5 player: Bobby Hull.
It is ridiculous to ignore that he arguably has the best resume before the age of 30 than any non Big 4 player.
b in vancouver
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True
(although I'm sure Beliveau's 10 Stanley Cup rings alone is enough hardware)
Stan Mikita (Hull's line-mate), Boom Boom Geoffrion (Beliveau's line-mate) and Dickie Moore (Beliveau's line-mate) also won the Art Ross.
See a pattern?
If Crosby only lost out to Malkin and Ovechkin it would be similar - but he hasn't. He's missed out on multiple awards to players that aren't in that echelon. I like Crosby. I do. I think he's fantastic. But he just hasn't had as dominant of a career as these other guys.
Mikita wasn't Hull's linemate.
There is not reason to think that the season Kane or Sedin had would not have won Art Rosses in Beliveau's and Hull's era.
Regardless of how you want to try to spin the stats, Crosby has as many Top 3 Art Ross and Hart finishes as Beliveau and Hull.
He is absolutely on their tier and is maybe lacking just longevity to be at their level all-time.
b in vancouver
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I should've said 'teammate'. Same goes for Dickie Moore.
And we just disagree about this.
Look I loved Mike Bossy. He was incredible. He only played 10 seasons and was Crosby's age when he retired. 4 Stanley Cups. Another final. 9 straight years scoring over 50 goals.
573 goals and 1126 points in 752 games. Conn Smythe. Calder. (Rocket) twice (someone else - can't remember who outscored him in the 80s) First team all-star 5 times.
Once again, Bossy is one of my all-time favourite players and the early 80s Islanders is one of my favourite Teams of all-time.
At the moment they have comparable careers with the edge in Bossy's favour. And Bossy has a tough time cracking the top 20.
Go Wings
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Lebowski
El Duderino
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Exactly.
As a Habs fan, if Béliveau is your #5, then Crosby has just as good of an argument for #5... And he could be playing for another decade.
Sweetpotato
Registered User
Great post.
Demonstrates my point that it is becoming increasingly difficult to make a coherent argument that Crosby isn't headed for the top 10 (and potentially as high as 5th). Bonus points if you respond by dismissing me as a fanboy.
Best player of his generation but not top five, IMO.
These type of discussions always have recency bias.
People will ignore players like Doug Harvey who won 7 straight Norris trophies. The Rocket. So many great players over the years that it's hard to compare over generations.
These type of discussions always have recency bias.
People will ignore players like Doug Harvey who won 7 straight Norris trophies. The Rocket. So many great players over the years that it's hard to compare over generations.
Sky04
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Crosby has been the face of the league for the past 11 years, 3 cups, won every award and on his way to a 1500-1700 point career. What's insane is he still has another 8-10 years in this league at least barring career ending injury. He's pacing to be around top-10 in points and top-5 in playoff points.
Voight
#winning
He's about tied with Mikita right now IMO, will rise over the next few years and we'll see where he ends up.
Lots of great players down through history and we tend to forget about those who came before the Gretzky era.
Gretzky, Orr, Howe and Lemieux are my top four. Then you have the likes of the Rocket, Espo, Doug Harvey (six or seven straight Norris trophies), Morenz, Beliveau, Bobby Hull, Terry Sawchuck, Eddie Shore etc.
I could see him in the top 10 by the time he retires if he continues to produce for quite a few more years.
Gretzky, Orr, Howe and Lemieux are my top four. Then you have the likes of the Rocket, Espo, Doug Harvey (six or seven straight Norris trophies), Morenz, Beliveau, Bobby Hull, Terry Sawchuck, Eddie Shore etc.
I could see him in the top 10 by the time he retires if he continues to produce for quite a few more years.
412 Others
5Cups beats 2Cups
BCShark
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Such a fantastic, well-supported argument you've made.
Winning 3 cups in a 30-team league with a salary cap and four rounds of playoff hockey is harder than winning 5-6 cups in a 6-team league with 2 rounds of playoff hockey.
But yeah, a couple more cups is all that's the determining factor.
Let's keep dangling that carrot just a little further away each time Crosby crosses a milestone.
What he's done, in this low-scoring era, is amazing. He averages 10.7 more points per season than his next closest competitor when comparing their points-per-game.
The fact he might end up top-10 in scoring all-time after starting his career in this era is mind-boggling.
truth. top 5
Luigi Lemieux
Registered User
I agree that I don't think he's top 5 quite yet I have him around 8-13. That said if he wins 5-6 cups along with 3+ conn smythes, a couple more major regular season trophies(art, Richard, or hart) added to his already full trophy case, I don't think there will be any denying him the #5 spot. He's still only 29.
GordieHowsUrBreath
Nostalgia... STOP DWELLING ON THE PAST
- Jun 16, 2016
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recency bias? i think it's more often the opposite
people overrate the past and tend to not appreciate the present, they think the 20th best player from 20 years ago would be by far the best today
even that roundtable with crosby, toews, lemieux, gretzky, and orr they pretty much disrespected crosby and toews and said something like "those guys could play back in our era" as if their era was so far superior and today is so easy
there have been people on this forum that claimed ron francis is better than crosby, nostalgia makes people crazy
Empoleon8771
Registered User
OP makes a thread bashing another thread instead of posting in the "Crosby top-5 player" thread? Interesting.
Crosby is definitely on pace to finish top-10 in history. Top-5 is premature, but if he wins another scoring title or two plus another cup or two I don't know how you could argue he's not in the top-5.
Crosby is definitely on pace to finish top-10 in history. Top-5 is premature, but if he wins another scoring title or two plus another cup or two I don't know how you could argue he's not in the top-5.
Empoleon8771
Registered User
Crosby is definitely on pace to finish top-10 in history. Top-5 is premature, but if he wins another scoring title or two plus another cup or two I don't know how you could argue he's not in the top-5.
If he retires today, do you think he'd be top-10? I honestly would say no just because his career ended when he was 29.
If he retires today, do you think he'd be top-10? I honestly would say no just because his career ended when he was 29.
That's where we disagree. When I speak of the past I'm not talking the Ron Francis era as the past. I'm talking pre Gretzky. And I'm not talking about the 20th best player I'm talking players like Doug Harvey who won 6 or 7 straight Norris trophies. His name rarely even pops up in these discussions.
Many base their reasoning on all time scoring but those players played 50 games seasons. Of course their career numbers will be much lower. A 20 goal season was considered an accomplishment back then.
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Nathaniel Skywalker
DIG IN!!! RiGHT NOW!!!
- Oct 18, 2013
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I'm sorry there's is 0 chance bossy and crosby have similar careers. Crosby blows bossy out of the water when it comes to accomplishments. Yes bossy faced gretzky but that doesn't matter because if we remove gretzky bossy still comes no where close.
Were talking
2 harts (6 time finalist)
2 art ross (8 times top 3)
2 Smythes
3 Lindsay's ( 5 time finalist)
2 Richards
Vs
1 Smythe
2 Richards
It's not close
Plural
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Honestly, at that point he'd be closer to Lemieux than he would be Beliveau/Hull. 5 Cups, 3 Smythes, Another Art and Hart and handful of top-5 scoring/goal finishes and Sid is probably making a case for catching Mario.
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