lastcupever75
Phive cups PA.
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if you're rating him 3-4, you're basing that on stats alone. injuries held him back from totaling more.
mario had the most talent in my opinion and at 6-4 was much tougher to stop then wayne
Sidney Crosby Top 5 player of all time
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if you're rating him 3-4, you're basing that on stats alone. injuries held him back from totaling more.
mario had the most talent in my opinion and at 6-4 was much tougher to stop then wayne
lastcupever75
Phive cups PA.
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66 & 99 yes
jarg in his prime? debatable. both have skill sets better then the other .
messier? just no
Plural
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I agree that Messier wasn't as skilled as Sid. But his resume is pretty darn impressive. I think Crosby is right up there with Mess on all-time lists. Could argue him ahead and if he's not yet, he will be soon enough.
Then why haven't his contemporaries done what he had done?
I love these arguments that player X isn't as good as player Y because one played in an "easier era". It's like when you see people saying Crosby is better than Gretzky and Howe. My answer is always the same. If it was so easy to score 200 points in the 80s because the goalies were terrible and defense didn't exist, why did no one else do it?
Same thing applies here. I'm not saying Brady is the greatest (I don't think such a thing can exist in football because every position is so unique), I'm just saying your argument sucks.
This really is the only way to judge. How do these players stack up against their own contemporaries?
Going by points, Gretzky was head and shoulders (20pts or more) above his contemporaries for eight years! Lemieux did it once. Jagr's done it once. Bobby Orr did it once. Esposito did it once, Howe did it twice in a 70 game season!
If we were to lower it to 10 pts over, you really begin to see the dilution and can see where Crosby sits. He's done it once. Here's the list of others who have also done it and the year(s) they did it.
McDavid - 2017
Kane - 2016
Crosby - 2014
Malkin - 2012
Jagr - 1999
Jagr - 1998
Lemieux - 1997
Lemieux - 1996
Gretzky - 1994
Lemieux -1993
Gretzky - 1991
Gretzky - 1990
Lemieux - 1989
Lemieux - 1988
Gretzky - 1987
Gretzky - 1986
Gretzky - 1985
Gretzky - 1984
Gretzky - 1983
Gretzky - 1982
Gretzky - 1981
Lafleur - 1977
Esposito - 1974
Esposito - 1973
Esposito - 1972
Esposito - 1971
Orr -1970
Esposito - 1969
Makita - 1967
Hull - 1966
Howe - 1954
Howe - 1953
Howe - 1952
Howe - 1951
Cowley - 1941
Conacher - 1935
Weiland - 1930
Morenz - 1928 (39 games!!!)
No way is Crosby in the conversation as top 5 nor will he ever be.
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He's in the conversation whether you want to believe it or not.
This thread is proof of that.
He's not in the top 5. One thing to keep in mind about Jagr is that, he had the burden of Gretzky and Lemieux.
For example, in 1995-1996, Lemieux finished with 161 pts... Jagr 149pts and # 3 had 120pts.
If Gretzky and Lemieux were 11/10
Jagr was 9/10
Sakic, Forsberg, Yzerman, Crosby, Ovi 8/10
He's in the conversation whether you want to believe it or not.
This thread is proof of that.
lol, you got me there. I should have phrased that differently.
The thing that blew my mind though is how Esposito DOMINATED in his career, but he's considered just a one trick pony goal scorer. From what I've seen on this board most wouldn't even rate him over Ovechkin!
Also, Howe dominated during a period of other all time greats, as did Gretzky.
This also doesn't at all consider goalies or less point productive defensemen.
Revisionist history in effect, I guess. Going forward, I guess we should all follow Public Enemy's advice and "Don't believe the hype."
As an outlier detection model, (which is basically what you're doing) this isn't a very robust methodology. At least use a scaling factor (percentage instead of fixed difference would be a start) and compare to something different than just the second ranked player. And maybe also rank the players in percentiles instead of fixed ranks to account for population differences. Or check if points distributions follow any sort of statistical curve, and see how far above the curves leaders are in terms of measures of variance like std deviation.
All that could very likely turn up the same results, but would hold up to scrutiny a lot better.
Son Goku
henlo u stinky egg
When has anyone ever undervalued Beliveau? As far as I've seen he gets tons of respect.
Lebowski
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The one year Crosby ranks in that list of yours is a year where he was considered to be underwhelming compared to his usual by a lot of Pens fans. Crosby wasn't anywhere near his best in 2014.
This list isn't saying much.
edog37
Registered User
You do realize in '93, Lemieux came back from cancer, spotted Lafontaine 12 points, then obliterated him in the last month of the season by scoring 30 goals & 26 assists. Pipsqueak Gretzky never did that....
That said, Sid is already there at #5. 3 Cups, 3rd player in NHL history with back to back Conn Smythes, & not done yet.
edog37
Registered User
Jagr was talented but had 0 leadership abilities. He never won a Cup after leaving Pittsburgh. He rode Lemieux's & Francis' coat tails...
Son Goku
henlo u stinky egg
b in vancouver
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There's some amazing players in the top 25. I think 5 is currently too high for him. He's still youngish so will climb over the next few years but - I don't know - it's tough.
After
Orr, Gretzky, Howe, Lemieux
Bobby Hull, Belliveau, Richard, Shore, Bourque, Messier, Jagr, Harvey, Esposito, Morenz, Mikita, Hasek, Roy, Bossy, Lafleur
Ahead of Sakic, Lidstrom, Yzerman, Potvin, H. Richard, Ovechkin, Malkin, Clarke, Dionne, Kurri, etc.
Right now, career-wise I think he's comparable to Potvin, Lidstrom, Lafleur, Yzerman, Clarke - so right in the middle of those two groups at the second.
When he hangs them up I expect him to settle around 10 (possibly higher) but don't think he's there yet.
After
Orr, Gretzky, Howe, Lemieux
Bobby Hull, Belliveau, Richard, Shore, Bourque, Messier, Jagr, Harvey, Esposito, Morenz, Mikita, Hasek, Roy, Bossy, Lafleur
Ahead of Sakic, Lidstrom, Yzerman, Potvin, H. Richard, Ovechkin, Malkin, Clarke, Dionne, Kurri, etc.
Right now, career-wise I think he's comparable to Potvin, Lidstrom, Lafleur, Yzerman, Clarke - so right in the middle of those two groups at the second.
When he hangs them up I expect him to settle around 10 (possibly higher) but don't think he's there yet.
Newest sens fan
My uncle owns Nintendo 64
I think he is just on the outskirts of top 5-
Gretzky
Lemieux
Toews
Kane
Keith
Crosby/Crawford
Edit: The top 3 are pretty interchangeable
Gretzky
Lemieux
Toews
Kane
Keith
Crosby/Crawford
Edit: The top 3 are pretty interchangeable
lol, read the whole post, buddy. It's merely a list of when players finished 10+ points over the next player.
You are 100% right, but I didn't have the time to create that kind of model. This is merely a quickly compiled list. I guess it could be a fun project.
Is there a place to grab NHL stat data through an API?
I didn't specifically mention Beliveau. I mentioned Esposito. Regardless, anecdotally, looking at all the posts in this thread, Beliveau is usually missing in most poster's top 5.
What I commonly see (anecdotally) is:
Gretzky
Lemieux
Orr
Howe
Crosby
tarheelhockey
Offside Review Specialist
Holy ****, I leave the thread for a while and next thing you know people are trying to give Lemieux credit for Selke level defense.
Longtime members of the History/ATD/BTN boards have spent the better part of a decade tweaking a system called vsX which does something similar. Basically it looks at players' scoring as a percentage, relative to the highest scorer in a given year. It can be adjusted to aim at the 1st place mark, 2nd place, 5th place, etc. And you can adjust for outlier seasons when it makes sense to do so. It's sort of a logical conclusion to what you were up to with that list.
Here's the thread with what I think are the most recent numbers -- look at the last page of the thread for results, first page for a detailed explanation of how it works: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1361409
The bottom line is, as a point scorer Crosby and Ovechkin and Thornton are all in the top 20 all time. None of them are top 10. And Gretzky is just laughably far above anyone else.
Longtime members of the History/ATD/BTN boards have spent the better part of a decade tweaking a system called vsX which does something similar. Basically it looks at players' scoring as a percentage, relative to the highest scorer in a given year. It can be adjusted to aim at the 1st place mark, 2nd place, 5th place, etc. And you can adjust for outlier seasons when it makes sense to do so. It's sort of a logical conclusion to what you were up to with that list.
Here's the thread with what I think are the most recent numbers -- look at the last page of the thread for results, first page for a detailed explanation of how it works: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1361409
The bottom line is, as a point scorer Crosby and Ovechkin and Thornton are all in the top 20 all time. None of them are top 10. And Gretzky is just laughably far above anyone else.
McDavidCrushedLarkin
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