Should Toronto retool starting next year?

[leafan11]

JT is impossible to trade, we just have to wait out his contract.

Marner should be the first one gone for a big package involving another young star.

Trade Matthews too. He doesn't seem to care about playing here and winning. And he's gonna ask for too much on his next contract.

Nylander can stay if his price is reasonable.

Start next season with a top 6 of JT, Knies, Nylander, Bunting, O'Rielly, Jarnkrok. Sub in whatever young star(s) we get back from trading Matthews/Marner. That should squeeze us into the playoffs next year and then who knows what could happen. Trading M&M should also give us good prospects/draft picks to restock the pool and a shit load of cap space.

If Dubas still wants to run it back with no changes to the core, fire him too. Maybe fire Keefe too, I'm not sure. This core has choked with both him and Babcock, so it's more on the players.

If you tell JT your taking the C from him and he’s no longer in their plans he may move, he’s only got 2 years left on his deal, why stay if you’re going to make it uncomfortable for him.

 

[34]

It's too late.

yup. The Leafs are going to lose all of Matthews, Nylander, Marner and ROR. Both Nylander and Matthews before July 1st this year.

it is not going to be a retool, it will be a complete teardown of the core.

this sweep is as bad if not worse than another 1st round exit. I think Keefe will be fired.

 

[Aashir]

Let's look at the numbers, keep in mind playoffs get harder as it goes, refs let things go more, coaches adapt.
Also, it's clear Mathews is getting all the tough match ups, Cirelli Round 1, Barkov Rd2, no one gets more attention the #34

Player - G - A - BKS - Hits
Mathews - 5 - 6 - 14 - 28
Marner - 2 - 10 - 9 - 7
Tavares - 4 - 3 - 24 - 22
Nylander - 2 - 6 - 2 - 2

How has he been out performed than Marner/Nylander, please explain this to me with facts.

Of note, Marner/Tavares/Nylander combined for 1 goal from G3-G9
Mathews scored 5 goals from G3-G9 WHEN GAMES MEANT SOMETHING
Nylander holding the puck on the perimeter and going for a pleasure skate DOES NOTHING.

Mathews 14 blocks (15 combined from other 3 players)
Mathews 28 hits (31 combined from other 3 players)

Please don't tell me you expect Mathews to over perform the 3 other guys combined? he's not making 3 times their salary.

I haven;;t even talked about Leafs defence, and the average goaltending, what has he done??? Well more than the other 3 when the games counted.

And Matthews has still done f*** all this series. Where’s the help? JT and Willy won us game 2 in tampa, Marner and Nylander were catalysts to the Game 4 comeback, just as Matthews was.

Matthews in this series has 2A. I don’t even know when he got that second assist, only remember the knies one. He’s been lackadaisical, soft, perimeter himself, unmotivated. Bringing up context-less stats means Jack shit. I can bring up some bs like GF% from last game and show how nylander has been great, but that’s dumb.

This series, and a lot of our playoff losses land on our core players feet. Him being the biggest of the 4 means he takes the brunt of it. Doesn’t help that he’s “miraculously” injured whenever he’s playing doggy.

He’s been atrocious this series. He’s a sniper who can’t shoot. Marners a playmaker who can’t pass. Nylander is a dual player who can’t do either. Tavares is straight up useless in all aspects of the game.

yup. The Leafs are going to lose all of Matthews, Nylander, Marner and ROR. Both Nylander and Matthews before July 1st this year.

it is not going to be a retool, it will be a complete teardown of the core.

this sweep is as bad if not worse than another 1st round exit. I think Keefe will be fired.

IMO it’s worse than another first round loss

We’d never get the high feeling of game 6, and we’d just expect game 7 to be a loss going into it. Wouldn’t sting as bad as winning a round then being swept

 

[Mess]

Marner for Brady Tkachuck + Tim Stutzle

Are you aware of the stats?

Marner

Ottawa Players

21 year Stutzle finished with 9 more goal but 9 less points than Marner.

 

[Steven1562]

Are you aware of the stats?

Marner

View attachment 704850

Ottawa Players

View attachment 704849

21 year Stutzle finished with 9 more goal but 9 less points than Marner.

Yeah ridiculous trade idea. Why would the Senators watch what we saw last night and say hey let's trade the heart and soul of our team and an extra 90 point player for Marner on a 10.8 million dollar contract.

 

[Kazparov]

If you tell JT your taking the C from him and he’s no longer in their plans he may move, he’s only got 2 years left on his deal, why stay if you’re going to make it uncomfortable for him.

You can't run your captain out of town who you heavily recruited 5 years ago. No one is going to want to play here after that.

 

[Stephen]

One guy I would want to move on from is TJ Brodie. Yeah he’s quiet and has been solid for us for a few years but he’s been front and center of a lot of meltdowns especially with McCabe in the playoffs. At his cap hit I just want a more impactful defenseman. He’s not that young anymore either and has just been playing with a broom stick this round. Maybe appropriate considering we’re facing a sweep.

 

[LeafLoyalist]

And Matthews has still done f*** all this series. Where’s the help? JT and Willy won us game 2 in tampa, Marner and Nylander were catalysts to the Game 4 comeback, just as Matthews was.

Matthews in this series has 2A. I don’t even know when he got that second assist, only remember the knies one. He’s been lackadaisical, soft, perimeter himself, unmotivated. Bringing up context-less stats means Jack shit. I can bring up some bs like GF% from last game and show how nylander has been great, but that’s dumb.

This series, and a lot of our playoff losses land on our core players feet. Him being the biggest of the 4 means he takes the brunt of it. Doesn’t help that he’s “miraculously” injured whenever he’s playing doggy.

He’s been atrocious this series. He’s a sniper who can’t shoot. Marners a playmaker who can’t pass. Nylander is a dual player who can’t do either. Tavares is straight up useless in all aspects of the game.


IMO it’s worse than another first round loss

We’d never get the high feeling of game 6, and we’d just expect game 7 to be a loss going into it. Wouldn’t sting as bad as winning a round then being swept

None of the 4 have done anything this series, just proved my point that he doesn't have a supporting cast..LOL
Game 2 in Tampa was Game 4, Mathews scored the 2nd and 3rd goal to make it close to get you the comeback...Marner and Nylander did not do anything other than be on the ice....Morgan Reilly with tying goal, and Kerfoot with OT winner. But without Mathews taking control and scoring 2 goals there is no comeback.

It's guys like you that woudl push a player like Mathews out of Toronto, i just pointed to 2 important stats in playoff hockey, BLOCKS and HITS, mathews sacrificing it all out there, while the other 3 sit back....he nearly has as much Blocks and Hits as the other 3 combined.

Why is he the biggest culprit, does he make as much as the other 3 combined? No they are all nearly the same salary, but i see mathews engaging, sacrificing, don;t see that from the other 3 and the NUMBERS DONT LIE!!!!

Mathews has 5 goals from G3-6, the other 3 have 1 goal combined, the lucky bounce in G6 by Tavares. So between Marner/Tavares/Nylander 1 goal in the last 7 games. Yes i see the supporting cast!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Stephen]

The Tavares contract and other's like it is the reason why Bettman's Cap just kills this sport. People care more about someone's cap hit than they do about what they actually do on the ice

What is wrong with a system that does something like this?

Tavares has 2 more years at 11m so 22m total....... What is wrong with a system where the Leafs and Tavares can agree to restructure his contract to say, 4 years at 5.5m? Or anything like it, where player/team can negotiate a way to spread out their cap hit. I realize all the manipulation of bonuses, front loading etc make it complicated but it can't be that hard to make a restructuring section in the CBA.

We celebrated when Tavares signed with the Leafs, and now we're going to celebrate when he's gone. I'm sure that's exactly what Bettman envisioned back in 2006.

Bettman’s money ball league has turned every player into an insurance policy and every fan an underwriter. How do you sell a league and its personalities when the best player your team can acquire is named Cap Space? At the very least the NHL should be doing a better job hiding the sausage recipe so fans aren’t so bitter and antagonized about a guy like JT.

 

[BallardEra]

 

[HolyCrap]

If we're being honest, he's been the most disappointing of all.

I wonder if he has a chronic injury? Not using that as an excuse as he could still be more intense but I worry about any long term deal with him. That being said I think him being traded before deadline is imminent.

 

[Trapper]

I can see Dubas making that deal for the Sens. Let's hope he lands in Ottawa.

Lol one could hope.
There is nobody on the Leafs I would trade Brady Tkachuk for.
Ottawa is a young team trying to get into the playoffs and when you get there Tkachuk is the kind of player you want all day on the team.
Add new ownership with a possible Ryan Reynolds or Snoop around and money should be coming as well.

 

[Eternal Leaf]

I hope they come to their senses and redistribute the cap this off-season.

To be fair, if the Leafs' core played like other stars around the league, the current cap distribution would have been acceptable. But they don't, so it's time to make changes and remove a core piece to acquire a quality defenseman or two.

A few changes to the core will go a long way. Of course, this is assuming they get a new coach cause Keefe is pure garbage.

 

[Gallagbi]

I hope they come to their senses and redistribute the cap this off-season.

To be fair, if the Leafs' core played like other stars around the league, the current cap distribution would have been acceptable. But they don't, so it's time to make changes and remove a core piece to acquire a quality defenseman or two.

A few changes to the core will go a long way. Of course, this is assuming they get a new coach cause Keefe is pure garbage.

Performance has been the issue, not structure. They havent played like their caphit dictates in the playoffs

 

[LastOne2100]

Bettman’s money ball league has turned every player into an insurance policy and every fan an underwriter. How do you sell a league and its personalities when the best player your team can acquire is named Cap Space? At the very least the NHL should be doing a better job hiding the sausage recipe so fans aren’t so bitter and antagonized about a guy like JT.

Nothing wrong with having a cap. It's definitely increased competitiveness.

What is wrong is having an incompetent new GM be given the reigns to one of the league's largest franchises and completely f*** up said cap management within days of taking the position. Then continually make the problem worse and be forced to buy his way out with draft picks for years.

Ultimately, I hold Shanahan responsible for not committing to the plan he had, and trying to turn this team into a contender too soon with spare parts.

 

[robertmac43]

If the statistical probability of us losing this series becomes reality then yes some retooling will need to happen.

Will be interesting to see where the management goes with that process, especially when we don't know who the GM will be for it.

 

[mjd1001]

Yeah ridiculous trade idea. Why would the Senators watch what we saw last night and say hey let's trade the heart and soul of our team and an extra 90 point player for Marner on a 10.8 million dollar contract.

I'm not sure if the proposal was sarcasm or not. BUT, in any fanbase there are always going to be fans that overvalue what they have and think that other teams are undervaluing their own.

If you are going to trade Marner, the main piece you get back is likely going to be not as good. What you hope to do is have the piece be CLOSE to what Marner is, and maybe a bit different of a player, and that you can get something else in addtion to him ( If Marner is a 90 out of 100 in terms of skill, you hope to get back someone who is an 80-85 PLUS another smaller piece or a pick). But the contract has a lot to do with it. If you are trading away Matthews or Marner and getting someting back that cost less in cap space, then you have to take a bit off the return also.

The ideal trade partner would be a team that is contending now, and they want Marner/Matthews as an upgrade over what they have. But that team might also have some younger pieces they don't want to wait for. So basically you give them the better playing in Matthews or Marner, get one back that is ALMOST as good hopefully, but you take one of their younger prospects back with the deal. You also would like to find a partner who is out west, and stay out of your own division.

If you want to move on from this core, that is the most likely scenario. Look at the rosters of teams like Minnesota, Jersey, Calgary, L.A., or Winnipeg. What could you get back from them for Marner or Matthews. Just don't expect their young superstars back. You aren't going to win any trade 'on paper'.

Of course, the best solution for the team would be for the Leafs to win 4 in a row and have everyone fall back in love with the team and the core again.

 

[Aashir]

None of the 4 have done anything this series, just proved my point that he doesn't have a supporting cast..LOL
Game 2 in Tampa was Game 4, Mathews scored the 2nd and 3rd goal to make it close to get you the comeback...Marner and Nylander did not do anything other than be on the ice....Morgan Reilly with tying goal, and Kerfoot with OT winner. But without Mathews taking control and scoring 2 goals there is no comeback.

It's guys like you that woudl push a player like Mathews out of Toronto, i just pointed to 2 important stats in playoff hockey, BLOCKS and HITS, mathews sacrificing it all out there, while the other 3 sit back....he nearly has as much Blocks and Hits as the other 3 combined.

Why is he the biggest culprit, does he make as much as the other 3 combined? No they are all nearly the same salary, but i see mathews engaging, sacrificing, don;t see that from the other 3 and the NUMBERS DONT LIE!!!!

Mathews has 5 goals from G3-6, the other 3 have 1 goal combined, the lucky bounce in G6 by Tavares. So between Marner/Tavares/Nylander 1 goal in the last 7 games. Yes i see the supporting cast!!!!!!!!!!

Are you blind?

Matthews’s first goal: nylander drop pass to Marner, Marner cross ice to Matthews who has half the net.

Matthews Second goal: nylander plays a pass he tips. I guess he gets credit but it was a nothing play that went in.

Blocks and hits are the most important stats? What about goals and assists? Matthews has 2A, he should lead by example, but instead he is NOT ENGAGED OR SACRIFICING. Watch the damn games, he skates at 50%, he’s afraid to shoot and always takes stupid point shots. He doesn’t drive to the net and plays the same style as 175 pounds Marner. Matthews is giving “hits”, he isn’t finishing his checks, he’s not squeezing people off the puck and he isn’t giving bone crushing hits. He’s not using his frame at all

it’s guys like you who don’t care about success as long as we have good regular season players. Oh my bad Matthews is struggling at that part too.

Matthews has been dogshit, marners been unplayable, Tavares is a boat anchor, Nylander plays 50% of the game like the rest of them, and 50% of the game how matthews should. He gets shit because he has been shit. If you didn’t live in this thread you’d see Marner is getting just as much hate

Stop deflecting off matthews, he is just as big of a problem as the others. Take the fake glasses off

Did you see the effort on floridas tying goal? Casually one handing the puck in and not boxing verhaeghe out at all. Yea that’s a superstar putting it all out there

 

[Superstar]

Not sure about retool, but re-fool us all? maybe...

 

[JKG33]

They should've retooled starting 3 years ago. It's been painfully obvious what this core is for years. Just have to take off the blue n white goggles to see it

 

[Maple Leaf]

Not retool
Rebuild from scratch
Maybe move the team

 

[Jmo89]

It'll depend on the new coach and GM. They might want to give the loser core a chance with a competent coach.

Otherwise I doubt they retool. They probably trade either Matthews or Marner. Or they make the stupid choice of trading Nylander and keeping both M&M. I don't think it'll be a retool though. Just player out, player in. Similar to Florida with Tkachuk.

 

[Gallagbi]

Otherwise I doubt they retool. They probably trade either Matthews or Marner. Or they make the stupid choice of trading Nylander and keeping both M&M. I don't think it'll be a retool though. Just player out, player in. Similar to Florida with Tkachuk.

Thats generally considered a retool, player in/out to change culture without a significant dumping or acquiring of assets.

 

[SprDaVE]

Not retool
Rebuild from scratch
Maybe move the team

Only way to kill the curse is moving the team. I like the idea.

 

[JKG33]

Florida got called out by Keith Tkachuk. Winnipeg got called out by their own coach.

Toronto needed someone of status to come in and call out this pathetic group. But we're years too late on that. Nobody in this organization has any stones. From Dubas and Keefe right down to most of the players