Should Toronto retool starting next year?

[Throw More Waffles]

I've wanted a shakeup of the core since the humiliating losee to Columbus. The leafs came back in game 4 and, riding that high, didn't show up in the slightest for game 5. It almost looked as though the core players intentionally threw that game. Like, they were scared of covid and wanted to go home or something.

Not showing up for that game 5 was already the final straw for me. There's a culture problem and the entitled core need to be broken up. We would have gotten a f*** load of returns back then, as now they're essentially 1 year rentals. Dubas risked his entire career on the core and won't touch them, so he had to go as well.

So here we are in the exact same position, but our star players have nmc's coming up and can only be traded as rentals.

It's a disaster. How Dubas could inherit this level of talent and f*** it up this badly is quite literally a story for the ages. A horror story of biblical proportions. I've taken heat for saying it in the past, but I believe there is a very real conversation that could be had regarding if Dubas was sent here to intentionally sabotage this team.

 

[Larcos_Unal]

They've already changed the coach, changed the assistant coaches, changed the 3rd & 4th lines, changed the defense, changed the goaltending...the results are the same.

The only thing that hasn't changed is the core, if you run it back it is the very definition of insanity. One of 34, 16, 88 or 91 have to go. Tavares isn't going anywhere, no takers. It's gotta be either Willie or Mitch.

 

[LeafLoyalist]

You'd think the opportunity for Matthews to become the best Leaf of all time would outweigh his fear of failing in this city.

I wouldn't say it is a fear, it's reality, it's one of the hardest trophies to win, there are a lot of variables that go into a championship team, a lot of which he has no control over. So many great hockey players didn't win cups, and some of the best that played the game only won in their late years as supporting casts. If you are one of the most talented players in the league, wouldn't you want to be in a market that you're appreciated win or lose? The commentary from Leaf media when they lose is inexcusable, why would he of all people, or anyone for that matter, want to be exposed that negativity his whole career. Jt came back because he wanted to wear the maple leaf, he has a reason to be here, so does Marner...but AM has no sentimental investment in Toronto, other than being drafted here.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

They've already changed the coach, changed the assistant coaches, changed the 3rd & 4th lines, changed the defense, changed the goaltending...the results are the same.

The only thing that hasn't changed is the core, if you run it back it is the very definition of insanity. One of 34, 16, 88 or 91 have to go. Tavares isn't going anywhere, no takers. It's gotta be either Willie or Mitch.

I listed the changes leading up to the Tampa series. Management has shuffled the following in their endless attempts to work around our core players (Nyander, Matthews, Marner, Reilly). Those are the ONLY four players who have participated in all 7 playoffs.

3 different starting goalies, 2 gm's, 2 coaches, THIRTY-ONE different forwards, and SIXTEEN different D. 50 different players total.

THE PROBLEM IS THE CORE!!!!

 

[jiggy35]

I'd look at trading for Tom Wilson from the Caps. He's UFA after next season.

Wilson + a little for Nylander
Or
Wilson + a lot for Marner

 

[Darcy Tucker]

I think Matthews decline goes back to an early game in the season against Dallas. In this game Jamie Benn viciously slashed Auston in the lower rib cage under the protection and Matthews was never in his Hart trophy form since then. Not only because of the logistics of trying to play through being hampered from that cheap shot injury Benn gave him but also I think it bugged Matthews that Benn wasn't immediately mugged and filled in by anyone with the guts to stand up for our Hart trophy winning center who just won the rocket. Benn logged a hattrick that game and Matthews production was never the same.

Our team's softness overall cost us a real opportunity to make a cup run. We just weren't nasty enough in the trenches and by the time Dubas addressed this via trade deadline moves it was too late it just made things clunky and convoluted.

Marner and Nylander are two of the best wingers in the game you don't need to move them.

Tavares is the biggest issue that is made worse by the inability to be able to fix it. We are right on the door to contender and we are saddled with a point accumulating captain that doesn't hit, fight or speak his mind. You can't go to war being led by someone like JT. It's costing us the prime of the best roster this team has had likely ever. All to protect JT's pride and have a corporate poster boy who says the right things and won't hurt the corporate image.

Cancel Tavares.

 

[Larcos_Unal]

I listed the changes leading up to the Tampa series. Management has shuffled the following in their endless attempts to work around our core players (Nyander, Matthews, Marner, Reilly). Those are the ONLY four players who have participated in all 7 playoffs.

3 different starting goalies, 2 gm's, 2 coaches, THIRTY-ONE different forwards, and SIXTEEN different D. 50 different players total.

THE PROBLEM IS THE CORE!!!!

Quality post, beyond bueno

 

[thewave]

How about blowing it up. How can you run it back with a bunch of losers. The effort level from Marner and Matthews is disgusting. f*** them both. Never seen Marner play that piss poor before. Dude’s head was in space the whole game

Its not all bad. What is bad in the list I posted previously? Bad to me is losing top value players for nothing. Marner AM and Nylander.

Keeping ROR on would be important though.

 

[GoonieFace]

On May 7th, 2023, Auston Matthews, Mitch Marner, John Tavares & William Nylander QUIT on the city of Toronto & on the logo.

Think you got the year wrong. Signed huge contracts and don’t show up when playing for free

 

[HolyCrap]

I’m not sure a retool can be done. It’s looking like a new management group needs to come in move assets to get picks and young players. Our core will most likely want out anyways and want big money to stay. Move them all. It’s a massively failed build and it’s time they recognized it. If they retool and try to fix this team it will cost a lot and just put off the inevitable.

 

[howlman]

They've already changed the coach, changed the assistant coaches, changed the 3rd & 4th lines, changed the defense, changed the goaltending...the results are the same.

The only thing that hasn't changed is the core, if you run it back it is the very definition of insanity. One of 34, 16, 88 or 91 have to go. Tavares isn't going anywhere, no takers. It's gotta be either Willie or Mitch.

Trade Marner.

I'll try tonight in my NHL 23 game to see what I can get for Marner

 

[Apex Predator]

Trade Marner.

I'll try tonight in my NHL 23 game what I can get for Marner

Top prospect and two firsts!! You got this!

 

[koyvoo]

I am not a fan of what I am seeing from Matthews. Don't care for any of the core 4. Not sure why we should bend over backwards for Matthews. If somebody tells me he is better than Draisaitl, I will laugh my ass off.

It’s ridiculous. There is so much of the fanbase that is so forgiving of him. He’d have to do 10x as badly, for 10x as long as the others, just to get 10% of the shit they do.

He’s just as gutless as the rest of them.

 

[BallardEra]

 

[notbias]

Trade everyone... obviously we have to attach a ton of picks/prospects cause everyone is a playoff ghost, overpaid, soft, etc...

We can start rebuilding in 2026 probably since we will have no picks for the next few years.

This guy is an idiot.

 

[67leafs]

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again.
Matthew’s, Marner and Nylander DO NOT like the rough stuff and the grit of the playoffs.

its as simple as that

 

[6ix]

I’d see if the kings would be interested in a deal. Dubas and Blake have traded before. Their fans seem ready to move on from Byfield.

I’d do something around Marner for Byfield + Kempe.

I think at worst Byfield becomes a 6’5 3rd line C, and if he does figure it out you’re looking at a 65-70 pt 2C with a massive frame. Kempe is a beauty and has grit in his game.

 

[Stephen]

If you were Mathews, and having to deal with all this disappointment the last 5 years, would you want to sign here for another 8 years? The media and reporters are cut throat when it gets bad, the fans can be relentless in a negative way. Yes, if they would ever win he would get so much glory, but it is really difficult to win in this league are you betting your hockey career on that? He's not a Toronto born like JT and Marner, even Willy understands what it is to be a TML, but Auston may not want that failure hanging over his hockey career if they don't succeed. He may very well opt to head to Cali or Vegas after his last year, not signing July 1st will cause a ripple effect all season, tough spot here for both sides.

I think there’s a reputation damage angle to Matthews leaving that isn’t being considered.

If he walks and is seen to be unable to handle the supposed pressures of second round play in Toronto, he’s not leaving as a pristine all world player but as a guy who couldn’t hack it in the playoffs and took a big step back in the regular season.

That 1st overall prestige, the chance to be an Yzerman, Crosby, Mackinnon, Ovechkin, McDavid and whatever goes out the window and he enters a bit of a Tavares, Eichel mercenary phase to his career. Maybe that’s fine if he needs a change of scenery. New stars are coming up all the time. In a few years it might be a Bedard, Fantilli, Hughes era in this league and those guys will be getting their flowers.

But committing to the Leafs and realizing the potential is his best bet for the greatest legacy he can achieve. I firmly believe this.

 

[tmlms13]

The Tavares contract and other's like it is the reason why Bettman's Cap just kills this sport. People care more about someone's cap hit than they do about what they actually do on the ice

What is wrong with a system that does something like this?

Tavares has 2 more years at 11m so 22m total....... What is wrong with a system where the Leafs and Tavares can agree to restructure his contract to say, 4 years at 5.5m? Or anything like it, where player/team can negotiate a way to spread out their cap hit. I realize all the manipulation of bonuses, front loading etc make it complicated but it can't be that hard to make a restructuring section in the CBA.

We celebrated when Tavares signed with the Leafs, and now we're going to celebrate when he's gone. I'm sure that's exactly what Bettman envisioned back in 2006.

 

[Phion Keneuf]

They've already changed the coach, changed the assistant coaches, changed the 3rd & 4th lines, changed the defense, changed the goaltending...the results are the same.

The only thing that hasn't changed is the core, if you run it back it is the very definition of insanity. One of 34, 16, 88 or 91 have to go. Tavares isn't going anywhere, no takers. It's gotta be either Willie or Mitch.

You’re not wrong. Enough is enough.

 

[tmlms13]

Lets see who wins the Draft Lottery tonight.

Bedard for Matthews or Marner?

 

[deprw]

It might take decade to break trough all the obstacles and were on a year seven, but this is getting pretty hard to watch. We won't get good enough return for any of our stars, if we look it from historical perspective. It's a gamble, but I think it depends on Matthews and what his going to do. If he won't resign we have to retool.

 

[AndyWozniewski]

JT is impossible to trade, we just have to wait out his contract.

Marner should be the first one gone for a big package involving another young star.

Trade Matthews too. He doesn't seem to care about playing here and winning. And he's gonna ask for too much on his next contract.

Nylander can stay if his price is reasonable.

Start next season with a top 6 of JT, Knies, Nylander, Bunting, O'Rielly, Jarnkrok. Sub in whatever young star(s) we get back from trading Matthews/Marner. That should squeeze us into the playoffs next year and then who knows what could happen. Trading M&M should also give us good prospects/draft picks to restock the pool and a shit load of cap space.

If Dubas still wants to run it back with no changes to the core, fire him too. Maybe fire Keefe too, I'm not sure. This core has choked with both him and Babcock, so it's more on the players.

 

[capfit9]

ASAP

 

[ITM]

I think there’s a reputation damage angle to Matthews leaving that isn’t being considered.

If he walks and is seen to be unable to handle the supposed pressures of second round play in Toronto, he’s not leaving as a pristine all world player but as a guy who couldn’t hack it in the playoffs and took a big step back in the regular season.

That 1st overall prestige, the chance to be an Yzerman, Crosby, Mackinnon, Ovechkin, McDavid and whatever goes out the window and he enters a bit of a Tavares, Eichel mercenary phase to his career. Maybe that’s fine if he needs a change of scenery. New stars are coming up all the time. In a few years it might be a Bedard, Fantilli, Hughes era in this league and those guys will be getting their flowers.

But committing to the Leafs and realizing the potential is his best bet for the greatest legacy he can achieve. I firmly believe this.

Agreed.

But the first step in that commitment has to be a team friendly contract. Without these players realizing that sacrifice is required across the boards, there's no starting point. And just as well, better to begin that culture shift as soon as possible...I don't have a lot of faith that it will happen, but in all things possible...