Should Toronto retool starting next year?

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If we're just talking normal retool stuff, T.J. Brodie is the guy I want to move on from. Makes too much money and is hitting that decline. Has one year left, makes over $5 million and is kind of bland. Offers zero offense, isn't big or physical, a weird LH playing RHD. Has been so solid but we can't afford to have guys decline so much in a short amount of time.
 
Well, remember when Keefe called out Marner in Anaheim, benched him and he went and had a hissy fit? Some guys don't respond well to things.

I wonder if they have sports psychologists try to keep them even keeled and flat and they end up getting zombified. They seem like a group that gets too shaken up by things so they've been steered into this zombie, zen state.

His crying and whining and lack of effort when people play mean is the main reason to move on from him.
 
Are you blind?

Matthews’s first goal: nylander drop pass to Marner, Marner cross ice to Matthews who has half the net.

Matthews Second goal: nylander plays a pass he tips. I guess he gets credit but it was a nothing play that went in.

Blocks and hits are the most important stats? What about goals and assists? Matthews has 2A, he should lead by example, but instead he is NOT ENGAGED OR SACRIFICING. Watch the damn games, he skates at 50%, he’s afraid to shoot and always takes stupid point shots. He doesn’t drive to the net and plays the same style as 175 pounds Marner. Matthews is giving “hits”, he isn’t finishing his checks, he’s not squeezing people off the puck and he isn’t giving bone crushing hits. He’s not using his frame at all

it’s guys like you who don’t care about success as long as we have good regular season players. Oh my bad Matthews is struggling at that part too.

Matthews has been dogshit, marners been unplayable, Tavares is a boat anchor, Nylander plays 50% of the game like the rest of them, and 50% of the game how matthews should. He gets shit because he has been shit. If you didn’t live in this thread you’d see Marner is getting just as much hate

Stop deflecting off matthews, he is just as big of a problem as the others. Take the fake glasses off

Did you see the effort on floridas tying goal? Casually one handing the puck in and not boxing verhaeghe out at all. Yea that’s a superstar putting it all out there
Yes I'm definitely blind, they were on with Tampa's 4th line during a change, Nylander and Marner had open ice on a 2v2, if Mathews doesn't read the play and jump in that goal never happens, it's just a 2v2. Mathews tip on the PP goal was all Mathews, that is an elite tip in the air, not along the ice, how many players can do that. Did you see Mathews goal in G6, rips it by one of the best goalies in the world, off a difficult angle pass from brodie?

Your comments on Blocks & Hits do not associate with engagement and sacrificing is very telling of your hockey knowledge. It's a direct correlation to the commitment a player is making to help the team win, it's NOT always about G & A. And on that note, he is leading the team with 5 goals, all of them between G3-6 in which the other 3 had 1 goal. So your argument about G&A is proven that mathews is completely out performing the other 3 in these playoffs over many games....Nylander/Marner/Tavares, more than half their points came in G1&2, many ages ago, what have they done lately. If it wasn't for Mathews they are likely playing in a game 7 and you know how that goes.

You stick with your opinion that this is all on Mathews, and i will stick with mine that it's a team sport and everyone needs to pull their weight, of which Nylander/Marner/Tavares haven't in ALL ASPECTS of the game!!!
 
I think people forget we had arguably a top 5 league starting goalie from 1991-92 with Grant Fuhr - Felix Potvin - Curtis Joseph to Ed Belfour in 2005-06. Eddie was cooked in his last season with us and Fuhr was hitting the back nice but still pretty much elite/upper tier goaltending for 15 seasons.

Few hiccups but some nice and heartbreaking runs. Looks like Hellebuyck is going to be moved in the off-season and that would be my top and only goalie target. I think he is in the Vezina/Hart conversation every season except 18-19 and 21-22. I am sure Winnipeg is on everybody’s NTC so not sure what would be going the other way but it feels like forever since we had a goalie that could steal a playoff game/series for us.


[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]2006[/TD]
[TD]41-33-8[/TD]
[TD]Missed Playoffs[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2004[/TD]
[TD]45-24-10-3[/TD]
[TD]Lost Conference Semi-Finals (Won 1 Round)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2003[/TD]
[TD]44-28-7-3[/TD]
[TD]Lost First Round (Won 0 Rounds)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2002[/TD]
[TD]43-25-10-4[/TD]
[TD]Lost Conference Finals (Won 2 Rounds)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2001[/TD]
[TD]37-29-11-5[/TD]
[TD]Lost Conference Semi-Finals (Won 1 Round)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2000[/TD]
[TD]45-27-7-3[/TD]
[TD]Lost Conference Semi-Finals (Won 1 Round)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1999[/TD]
[TD]45-30-7[/TD]
[TD]Lost Conference Finals (Won 2 Rounds)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1998[/TD]
[TD]30-43-9[/TD]
[TD]Missed Playoffs[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1997[/TD]
[TD]30-44-8[/TD]
[TD]Missed Playoffs[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1996[/TD]
[TD]34-36-12[/TD]
[TD]Lost First Round (Won 0 Rounds)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1995[/TD]
[TD]21-19-8[/TD]
[TD]Lost First Round (Won 0 Rounds)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1994[/TD]
[TD]43-29-12[/TD]
[TD]Lost Conference Finals (Won 2 Rounds)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1993[/TD]
[TD]44-29-11[/TD]
[TD]Lost Conference Finals (Won 2 Rounds)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1992[/TD]
[TD]30-43-7[/TD]
[TD]Missed Playoffs[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 

It wasn’t exactly a forced arrangement, but more like mutually assured non-destruction. As long as each company had access to half of their shared media properties, the other one couldn’t become the exclusive home of Leafs and Raptors games.

To this day, the two sides barter over who gets what games before the broadcast schedules are announced.

While the gritted-teeth partnership has largely worked and resulted in things like a Raptors practice facility, an expanded BMO Field and several commercial ventures around Scotiabank Arena, there have been indications that the MLSE board is occasionally riven along Bell/Rogers lines.

The huge contract for former Leafs coach Mike Babcock, the huge payoff for former Leafs coach Mike Babcock, the new deal for Raptors president Masai Ujiri, the drawn-out process to bring the Argonauts under the MLSE roof: Whispers and rumblings in each case that the telcos were not in harmony.

Former chief executive and noted big swinger Tim Leiweke departed less than halfway through his contract, likely tired of being the peacemaker.

The MLSE of present day has some significant decisions on its hands. Ujiri is in place, but he just fired his coach — with a reported $8-million US payout — and will potentially be looking for a fat new deal for his replacement.

The Raptors roster, after an underwhelming season, could have a payroll that crosses the NBA’s pricey luxury-tax threshold if Ujiri looks to bring back the team’s pending free agents.

The Maple Leafs could require an even bigger cheque. General manager Kyle Dubas is out of contract at season’s end and would expect a big-dollar commitment for a long-term extension. But while that seemed likely a week ago after the Leafs finally won a playoff series for the first time in almost two decades, the team’s sudden faceplant against the Florida Panthers has renewed calls for major changes, many of them in ALL CAPS and with WTF and various other acronyms featured prominently.

Head coach Sheldon Keefe is under contract for another season and team president Brendan Shanahan has two more seasons after this one on an extension that was signed in 2019.

The scorched-earth off-season that many fans (and media) are imagining would cost a fortune, not just in paying off unfinished deals, but in bringing in replacements.

Which gets back to the question of what the company’s majority owners want out of the thing. Will Rogers and Bell agree to spend tens of millions of dollars to see off the Leafs’ current management and hire new people to start over?


These are the same companies that constantly find new and creative ways to charge customers extra fees for the same service. Oh, your Wi-Fi coverage is poor in your house? Would you like these items to improve it for $20 a month?
 

It wasn’t exactly a forced arrangement, but more like mutually assured non-destruction. As long as each company had access to half of their shared media properties, the other one couldn’t become the exclusive home of Leafs and Raptors games.

To this day, the two sides barter over who gets what games before the broadcast schedules are announced.

While the gritted-teeth partnership has largely worked and resulted in things like a Raptors practice facility, an expanded BMO Field and several commercial ventures around Scotiabank Arena, there have been indications that the MLSE board is occasionally riven along Bell/Rogers lines.

The huge contract for former Leafs coach Mike Babcock, the huge payoff for former Leafs coach Mike Babcock, the new deal for Raptors president Masai Ujiri, the drawn-out process to bring the Argonauts under the MLSE roof: Whispers and rumblings in each case that the telcos were not in harmony.

Former chief executive and noted big swinger Tim Leiweke departed less than halfway through his contract, likely tired of being the peacemaker.

The MLSE of present day has some significant decisions on its hands. Ujiri is in place, but he just fired his coach — with a reported $8-million US payout — and will potentially be looking for a fat new deal for his replacement.

The Raptors roster, after an underwhelming season, could have a payroll that crosses the NBA’s pricey luxury-tax threshold if Ujiri looks to bring back the team’s pending free agents.

The Maple Leafs could require an even bigger cheque. General manager Kyle Dubas is out of contract at season’s end and would expect a big-dollar commitment for a long-term extension. But while that seemed likely a week ago after the Leafs finally won a playoff series for the first time in almost two decades, the team’s sudden faceplant against the Florida Panthers has renewed calls for major changes, many of them in ALL CAPS and with WTF and various other acronyms featured prominently.

Head coach Sheldon Keefe is under contract for another season and team president Brendan Shanahan has two more seasons after this one on an extension that was signed in 2019.

The scorched-earth off-season that many fans (and media) are imagining would cost a fortune, not just in paying off unfinished deals, but in bringing in replacements.

Which gets back to the question of what the company’s majority owners want out of the thing. Will Rogers and Bell agree to spend tens of millions of dollars to see off the Leafs’ current management and hire new people to start over?


These are the same companies that constantly find new and creative ways to charge customers extra fees for the same service. Oh, your Wi-Fi coverage is poor in your house? Would you like these items to improve it for $20 a month?

What a lazy article by the Toronto Sun. Modern teams in the NHL and NBA are going into fast, Full Tank rebuilds and coming out the other end with next generation star talent in short order. We did the same process with the Leafs 6-7 years ago wand they’re talking about whether or not there would be a financial appetite for it?

First of all, these franchises don’t stop minting money when they aren’t successful.

Second of all, a rebuild allows for a rebrand and massive merchandising opportunities. The next generation of Leafs Rebuild will be as hot as the last one.

Third of all, we’re talking about Babcock dismissal costs in the range of $25 million when franchise valuation is the name of the game? The Ottawa Senators are poised to be sold for $1 billion.

Just relax, Toronto Sun.
 
Does anything with Columbus starting with Peeke and Jenner get make sense for Marner?

As much as I wish Marner was built differently and I appreciate his unique skill, I just don't think he has it between the ears and will never be what we need him to be in the playoffs.

Add to it that Paul Marner consistently is being rumored to being disruptive and how contentious Marner's last contract negotiations went, I'm wondering.........

.................. and to clarify, my ideal scenario is Marner DOES become the playoff warrior that we want him to, and we figure out a way to get Peeke and Jenner here too! :)
 
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Does anything with Columbus starting with Peeke and Jenner get make sense for Marner?

As much as I wish Marner was built differently and I appreciate his unique skill, I just don't think he has it between the ears and will never be what we need him to be in the playoffs.

Add to it that Paul Marner consistently is being rumored to being disruptive and how contentious Marner's last contract negotiations went, I'm wondering.........

.................. and to clarify, my ideal scenario is Marner DOES become the playoff warrior that we want him to, and we figure out a way to get Peeke and Jenner here too! :)

One idea from trade: I think a retool starts by moving Marner .. he has the ability to gain the best return while opening up the most amount of cap space.

His actual salary is only around $8 mill, so with 20% retained the cap hit becomes much more appealing and with his actual salary, there's a good haul to be had.

His NMC on his current deal also does not kick in until July 1st as well, so he could be moved at the draft to any team and hold 2 years of value.

Teams need strength by building down the middle so I would be inclined to retool around Matthews up front.

And if they're doing that I consider moving Nylander this summer as well .. he has a M-NTC kicking in July 1st. I'm not sure tying up significant cap in Matthews AND Nylander is the best idea.

Hold onto Tavares and maybe trade him as a deadline rental in his last year.

Use the assets from Nylander/Marner to reload on young ELC talent, find value in UFA with stopgaps, and focus on balancing cap towards a better blue line
 
Well, remember when Keefe called out Marner in Anaheim, benched him and he went and had a hissy fit? Some guys don't respond well to things.

I wonder if they have sports psychologists try to keep them even keeled and flat and they end up getting zombified. They seem like a group that gets too shaken up by things so they've been steered into this zombie, zen state.
Yeah that was embarrassing. Keefe had to apologize after.
 
Wilson + a little for Nylander
Or
Wilson + a lot for Marner
If the Caps are only interested in getting someone to set up Ovi, then I could see that.

If they are seriously interested in winning in the postseason, I think it's the other way around: + a lot for Nylander or + a little for Marner.
 
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Samsonov is a restricted free agent this off-season. Of all the Leafs, he is the one guy who can’t be blamed for the collapse against Florida. Until he was injured, he also did his job.

Samsonov is due a raise off the US$1.8-million the Leafs paid him this year. As currently constructed, the Leafs can’t afford to give him one.

The budget option is to let Samsonov go, elevate Woll and hope Murray can keep his arm bones connected to his leg bones for one more year. If it were you, would you think that’s possible? Probably not.

The fantasy option is trading Murray to Spartak Moscow and giving a tandem of Samsonov and Woll a go.

The realistic option is chaos and paralysis.


Other regimes on other teams could let Samsonov go because it’s prudent financially. But a Leafs regime can’t risk Samsonov going somewhere else and playing magnificently. That mistake would scar any new (or holdover) executive group.

So what you actually see happening is the Leafs spending the entire summer trying to figure out a way to off-load Murray, while also negotiating with Samsonov, and also trying not to alienate Woll. What promises will have to be made to keep things together, and how will those play out?

While this is happening, the fan base and media will be leaned in over the Leafs’ shoulder screaming soft nothings in their ear about not screwing things up this time.

Whoever ends up the No. 1 goalie in training camp knows the job isn’t theirs. They are only No. 1a).

No. 1b) and maybe No. 1c) will be keeping a beady eye on them. But not as beady as everyone else’s. Two wobbly games in a row means you’re out. Or that you should be out. Or traded. Or demoted. Or fired into the sun.

Whatever Toronto’s problems over the past few years, a full-on, inextinguishable goalie controversy was never one of them. It had its ‘this guy vs. that guy’ moments, but it was always pretty clear who should enjoy precedence. It never worked. But it was clear.


Given how things have gone in the past few days and how foolishly the Leafs have managed their signings, they’re in it now.

So what have the Leafs taken from these playoffs? In all likelihood, a semi-broken curse, an executive bloodletting and a goalie controversy they can’t avoid. At the least.

They’ve traded one big problem for two new ones, with no solutions imminent. While things are about to change, Leafs’ math always stays the same.
 
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Samsonov is a restricted free agent this off-season. Of all the Leafs, he is the one guy who can’t be blamed for the collapse against Florida. Until he was injured, he also did his job.

Samsonov is due a raise off the US$1.8-million the Leafs paid him this year. As currently constructed, the Leafs can’t afford to give him one.

The budget option is to let Samsonov go, elevate Woll and hope Murray can keep his arm bones connected to his leg bones for one more year. If it were you, would you think that’s possible? Probably not.

The fantasy option is trading Murray to Spartak Moscow and giving a tandem of Samsonov and Woll a go.

The realistic option is chaos and paralysis.


Other regimes on other teams could let Samsonov go because it’s prudent financially. But a Leafs regime can’t risk Samsonov going somewhere else and playing magnificently. That mistake would scar any new (or holdover) executive group.

So what you actually see happening is the Leafs spending the entire summer trying to figure out a way to off-load Murray, while also negotiating with Samsonov, and also trying not to alienate Woll. What promises will have to be made to keep things together, and how will those play out?

While this is happening, the fan base and media will be leaned in over the Leafs’ shoulder screaming soft nothings in their ear about not screwing things up this time.

Whoever ends up the No. 1 goalie in training camp knows the job isn’t theirs. They are only No. 1a).

No. 1b) and maybe No. 1c) will be keeping a beady eye on them. But not as beady as everyone else’s. Two wobbly games in a row means you’re out. Or that you should be out. Or traded. Or demoted. Or fired into the sun.

Whatever Toronto’s problems over the past few years, a full-on, inextinguishable goalie controversy was never one of them. It had its ‘this guy vs. that guy’ moments, but it was always pretty clear who should enjoy precedence. It never worked. But it was clear.


Given how things have gone in the past few days and how foolishly the Leafs have managed their signings, they’re in it now.

So what have the Leafs taken from these playoffs? In all likelihood, a semi-broken curse, an executive bloodletting and a goalie controversy they can’t avoid. At the least.

They’ve traded one big problem for two new ones, with no solutions imminent. While things are about to change, Leafs’ math always stays the same.
Seems a lot of worrying about something pretty minor. They’ll find a way to dump Murray and run the other two.
Of all the things you could go ‘Chicken Little’ about, does this one even rank?
 
In the off season, I would inquire with AM's agent about a long term deal. If it's reasonable for the type of player he is, then you sign him. If he wants to be the top paid player in the league, I would trade him.

Marner I would trade no matter what. I don't even care what happens with the rest of the team.

JT, I ask him to waive his NTC. If he refuses, I let him know he's no longer a star player and will be a depth player on the 3rd line moving forward. Or he can waive his NTC. I don't care how that looks.

Nylander, I would also start inquiring about what he wants for a deal. If it's reasonable, sign him. If not, trade him.
 
If we're just talking normal retool stuff, T.J. Brodie is the guy I want to move on from. Makes too much money and is hitting that decline. Has one year left, makes over $5 million and is kind of bland. Offers zero offense, isn't big or physical, a weird LH playing RHD. Has been so solid but we can't afford to have guys decline so much in a short amount of time.

10 team NTC + 7.5 mil cash owed might complicate it but yeah imo he’s the obvious piece to move. 10.5 mil in cap to replace him Holl and Kerfoot is an appealing proposition.
 
My feeling is Peeke and Jenner aren't good enough even as a basis.

I'd be interested in names that would get the conversation rolling then.........
Gonna depend on whether they are willing to take a step back or think the can win a SC next year.

If it was me, I'd take a step back and ask for their #1 pick (4OA) + Foudy + top Prospect. Before anybody says no way, you are also clearing $10.893m off your cap.
 
My feeling is Peeke and Jenner aren't good enough even as a basis.

I'd be interested in names that would get the conversation rolling then.........

Just do some rule of thumb sketching here.

Is Andrew Peeke projected to play ahead of Jake McCabe? Or is he a player type we can fill a la Schenn, Lyubushkin as we’ve done. What is his upside.

Second. Is Boone Jenner any better than Ryan O’Reilly?

You’ve basically built a return of easily acquirable defensive depth and a middle six veteran forward for a franchise piece.

That’s a no go no matter how frustrated you are with the program or player.
 
Rebuild? No. Retool? Yes.

Why no on a Rebuild? Tearing things down and trading top guys for picks and prospects is taking a step back you don't need to take. your top guys are worth too much for that.

Retool? Yes. Why? To me this team isn't as 'likeable' as I want.

I (and others) have said in other threads that trading away 2 or 3 of your top 4, and you aren't likely to get any indvidual pieces back that are as good as what you deal away, but that is fine. Getting pieces that are very good (1 or 2 steps below what you are trading) AND getting prospects/picks that you can use to trade for other items is fine. You are trying to change things up right? that is part of it.

Not to mention clearing up cap space and giving more room/flexibility to do things can be a good thing also.

Short of coming back and winning the cup I want a new team next year. Even IF they came back and rallied the city behind them on the way to winning the cup this year. that would be a GREAT story and probably the most memorable sports story in our NHL lives, but it still wouldn't make this team likeable to me.

I don't live in the GTA. I am in the US not too far from Niagrara Falls (more Sabres territory). But I'm in my 40's now, grew up watching the Leafs. They haven't always been 'my team' but they are sometimes, and I have always followed them. In the late 1980's and early 90's, those teams didn't win but I rooted for the Leafs hard. The Sundin/Kadri/Tucker era teams didn't win but I LIKED those teams. This current team? Never had a connection with them. The fact they aren't that successful in the playoffs just makes it worse. I'd be a happier leafs fan with a new core here.
 

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