Should the Flyers Rebuild?

[Random Forest]

Do you feel comfortable with rubstov, voroboyov, or frost being a 2nd line center on a cup winning team?

That's not a question to answer before any of them have played a single NHL game.

 

[BringBackHakstol]

I really don't understand what is being discussed here.

The whole point of building a huge group of quality prospects is that some exceed initial expectations and some fall short. Do you think Jamie Benn was being projected as a first liner\all star right after he was drafted?

I feel extremely confident that the majority of a top 6 can be built with the prospects already in the system. Any holes can and will be filled via trade or free agency.

 

[Rebels57]

when we talk rebuild we really mean 3 players. giroux Voracek and Simmonds.

So lets talk about the future lets set a line up without those 3 guys

LInblom Patrick neck
Ratcliffe (blank) (blank)
Rubstov Coots Frost
Goulbourne? Bardreau Leier

Provy sanheim
ghost myers
hagg morin

Stolarz
Felix
hart

we need to fill in that future top 6 , and i believe a trade of giorux simmer and voracek will be able to fill those holes. It makes logical sense to trade those 3.

You really are clueless.

 

[Rich Nixon]

But that's where it gets tricky - fair value for him is going to cost a bomb, and even a tiny cut would leave a bomb on the table. Maybe he's not the one to trade, maybe we could make his new salary work, but it is going to be very sizeable.

It is, but it's quite dependent on how they do on bridge deals. If Ghost's is any indication, they might be able to get a bunch of really important players signed for respectable prices and have plenty of room for a nicely frontloaded 5 year deal for Wayne that could be moved in year 4 to a team far from the cap.

Plus, no doubt in my mind he is already lined up for a broadcast or office job in the organization the second he hangs 'em up.

 

[Striiker]

As usual, he posts it, we all know it's bait, and yet you guys still respond...

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

As usual, he posts it, we all know it's bait, and yet you guys still respond...

there are more than a few folks who are like that. The main board is full of them and folks always take the bait.

 

[Jtown]

This really is the stupidest argument I've ever seen on here.

Take three of our top 4 scorers from last year off the team, assume we get nothing in return, ignore good prospects like Vorobyov in favor of plugs like Goulbourne, pretend Couturier can't be the thing he has been for at least two years now, assume multiple first round center prospects will end up on the wing, then say the team left over can't win a Cup. Well, no **** a Flyers team that loses Giroux, Voracek and Simmonds for nothing won't win a Cup.

you can't read, or your reading compreshension sucks because none of what you said pertains to anything i wrote.

 

[Hurricane28]

I thought this was a thread that was bumped from 2-3 years ago, but come home to see this nonsense.


So you want to rebuild the rebuild? Bold strategy cotton

 

[Bobby Orr's Knees]

I really don't understand what is being discussed here.

The whole point of building a huge group of quality prospects is that some exceed initial expectations and some fall short.

I feel extremely confident that the majority of a top 6 can be built with the prospects already in the system. Any holes can and will be filled via trade or free agency.

I am with you. What exactly is being discussed in this thread? We have a huge group of talented prospects - some will work out, some won't. Provorov and Patrick are character guys, on top of being the most talented. Top-6 will be build with existing / upcoming (prospect) blocks. The holes will be filled via trades. And with all those parts in motion, it will become an attractive free agent market.

 

[The Madrigal]

If the Flyers weren't in the middle of a rebuild they wouldn't have traded a 25 year old 25 goal/50 point winger for two first round picks.

 

[Striiker]

If they thought the production could be replaced while simultaneously giving young guys bigger and better roles, they would.



Oh... and they did.

 

[The Madrigal]

If they thought the production could be replaced while simultaneously giving young guys bigger and better roles, they would.



Oh... and they did.

That is the definition of a move a rebuilding team would make. The Flyers are too proud to admit it and they don't want to risk losing ticket sales. They know they can have their cake and eat it too and be just competitive enough while rebuilding to hood wink people into thinking they aren't. The fact of the matter is though they are and have been since Hextall took over. I think it's the right direction for them to take and I am not complaining. I am simply calling a spade a spade.

 

[David St Hubbins]

But I just can't see him signing a 4-year deal, and I don't think he should - he would be getting bad advice from his agent to do so. It's his last big contract and he should be looking to set himself up with the longest deal possible. If the best situation for him is Philadelphia - and it probably is - he could play with the dollar amounts some to make it work with our cap and dissuade Hexy from needing to move him (or thinking he needs to), but I think he will absolutely ask for 6 years. I wouldn't blame him for a second - that's what he should be asking for - but I also would move him before we got to that point. I've traded him on these boards about 100 times, but I'd still be happy if he stayed and signed, because he rules, obviously.

We're of one mind here. Love to keep him but don't see how it can work.

 

[Striiker]

That is the definition of a move a rebuilding team would make. The Flyers are too proud to admit it and they don't want to risk losing ticket sales. They know they can have their cake and eat it too and be just competitive enough while rebuilding to hood wink people into thinking they aren't. The fact of the matter is though they are and have been since Hextall took over. I think it's the right direction for them to take and I am not complaining. I am simply calling a spade a spade.

Trading Schenn doesn't mean they're rebuilding, if anything it shows that they're moving out of that stage by pushing young guys into bigger roles. Harvesting the fruits of their rebuild.

They can't see how these guys perform in important situations if they don't get a chance. Moving Schenn gives Konecny a better chance to score in his natural position and it opens a spot for Lindblom on the first unit (most likely). They believe that these guys can fill the hole, and then some.

Last year Konecny had 3 less 5v5 points in 9 less games and the same amount of 5v5 goals in 9 less games.. and that was in his rookie year and playing as a LW.

The point is, this isn't a trade that makes the team worse by making a hole that can't be filled and being fine with that because it'll land them a good pick. They're still aiming to be better this year than last year, and overall I definitely think they will be.

 

[The Madrigal]

Trading Brayden Schenn for two draft picks who are years away from contributing and a cap dump bottom 6 forward absolutely makes them worse heading into next season. IF a young player or two steps up it MIGHT not be a huge loss. You seem to just be assuming that "Ifs" and "maybes" will definitely happen though. Right now on paper, they just lost a back to back 25 goal/50+ point forward and are worse off than they were. To try and suggest otherwise is laughable.

 

[Grare]

^ Yes but like Hartnell was successful on the PP.. Schenn was as well in the same role.

Schenn had 4 5v5 goals which is 4th liner production. The thinking has to be.. Do we have someone that can take Schenns spot on the powerplay? The role that seems easiest to fill.. And can this player score more than 4 5v5 goals? A little bit of uncertainty, but not enough to worry me imo.. And not enough to turn down 2 first rounders

 

[Psuhockey]

Trading Brayden Schenn for two draft picks who are years away from contributing and a cap dump bottom 6 forward absolutely makes them worse heading into next season. IF a young player or two steps up it MIGHT not be a huge loss. You seem to just be assuming that "Ifs" and "maybes" will definitely happen though. Right now on paper, they just lost a back to back 25 goal/50+ point forward and are worse off than they were. To try and suggest otherwise is laughable.

I personally think the Flyers have been rebuilding but I don't think the Schenn trade is necessarily an example of that. Going forward, trading good players for futures is something well run organizations are going to have to do under the cap. The best team in all of sports under a hard cap is the New England Patriots and they are constantly moving out good players for futures. I hope that once the Flyers are in position to be a contender that Hextall will continue to make these deals from time to time.

Out of all the quality forwards on the Flyers, Schenns production was probably the easiest to replace since most of it occurred on the power play. The deal might not give the Flyers cap savings now but the two firsts are what's important. Down the line, presumably if one hits that player will give the Flyers multiple seasons of cheap in their prime production and allow the Flyers to move out a more expensive declining player. Schenn wasn't declining but he was stagnating. He is what he is. So if the team feels it can replace his production why not get something for him now when he has good value instead of just waiting until he is declining and getting pennies on the dollar?

 

[The Madrigal]

^ Yes but like Hartnell was successful on the PP.. Schenn was as well in the same role.

Schenn had 4 5v5 goals which is 4th liner production. The thinking has to be.. Do we have someone that can take Schenns spot on the powerplay? The role that seems easiest to fill.. And can this player score more than 4 5v5 goals? A little bit of uncertainty, but not enough to worry me imo.. And not enough to turn down 2 first rounders

25 goals - 17 PP goals = 8

Also, over the last four years Schenn has scored 8, 15, 11, and 16 even strength goals. The idea that he is ONLY a goal scorer on the power play is a myth.

 

[Tripod]

25 goals - 17 PP goals = 8

Also, over the last four years Schenn has scored 8, 15, 11, and 16 even strength goals. The idea that he is ONLY a goal scorer on the power play is a myth.

5vs5 and ES are not the same thing.

He did only have 4 5vs5 goals this year....tied with Cousins, Bellemare and Lyubimov. They all tied for 12th on the team this year.

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...d=22&type=individual&sort=igoals&sortdir=DESC

But fwiw, over the last 3 years, only Voracek has separated himself from the rest. Giroux, Simmonds, Schenn and Couts all produce about the same point wise.

 

[The Madrigal]

5vs5 and ES are not the same thing.

He did only have 4 5vs5 goals this year....tied with Cousins, Bellemare and Lyubimov. They all tied for 12th on the team this year.

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...d=22&type=individual&sort=igoals&sortdir=DESC

But fwiw, over the last 3 years, only Voracek has separated himself from the rest. Giroux, Simmonds, Schenn and Couts all produce about the same point wise.

They are and they aren't unless you want to argue over semantics. It's splitting hairs to say there is a difference between a 5 on 5 goal and a 4 on 4 goal for example. They are both even strength goals. People do love to skew things though to support their argument and some have made Schenn out to be a PP specialist only (especially since he was traded) which isn't the case. He has averaged 13 ES goals and 31 ES points over the last four years.

 

[Tripod]

They are and they aren't unless you want to argue over semantics. It's splitting hairs to say there is a difference between a 5 on 5 goal and a 4 on 4 goal for example. They are both even strength goals. People do love to skew things though to support their argument and some have made Schenn out to be a PP specialist only (especially since he was traded) which isn't the case. He has averaged 13 ES goals and 31 ES points over the last four years.

Oh I agree with the last part. Schenn is no more a PP specialist than the rest of our top guys.

But most would not expect Schenn to be 5th on the team in 5vs5 goals since he seems to score more goals overall than others. (Last 3 years)

And in StL, he is joining a better 5vs5 scoring team than the Flyers, so I expect his points to go up there. But he might drop in PP points as well.

 

[kelmitchell]

I really hate this thread, mostly stupid ********...

 

[deadhead]

It's a ridiculous thread because it lives in an "alternative facts" universe, one where the GM has pursued a "win now" strategy.

Last time I checked, Hextall in the real work, somehow has managed to accumulate 6 1st rd picks from 2016-2018, added 1st round talents like Lindblom and Myers, accumulated numerous extra draft picks in addition to those 1st rd picks, and dumped a dozen high priced veterans over the last three years.

Now if that isn't "rebuilding," what is?

 

[TheTechNoir]

Um. They -are- rebuilding. They're literally in the middle stages of a full on rebuild.

 

[dats81]

It's a ridiculous thread because it lives in an "alternative facts" universe, one where the GM has pursued a "win now" strategy.

Last time I checked, Hextall in the real work, somehow has managed to accumulate 6 1st rd picks from 2016-2018, added 1st round talents like Lindblom and Myers, accumulated numerous extra draft picks in addition to those 1st rd picks, and dumped a dozen high priced veterans over the last three years.

Now if that isn't "rebuilding," what is?

Hextall is a genius.
He started a rebuild a couple of years ago and some diehard fans pretend they haven't even noticed