Should the Flyers Rebuild?

[Jtown]

Lol. So we need to trade our vets for young players so we can then... trade our young players for vets to put us over the top? Brilliant.

for specific players.

 

[Random Forest]

for specific players.

As opposed to nonspecific players like Giroux, Voracek, and Simmonds. Right.

 

[Jtown]

As opposed to nonspecific players like Giroux, Voracek, and Simmonds. Right.

do we win a cup with giroux as our best player? do we win a cup with giroux as our most expensive player?

 

[Curufinwe]

Lol. So we need to trade our vets for young players so we can then... trade our young players for vets to put us over the top? Brilliant.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

You guys are giving Jtown too much credit by actually entertaining his premise that we need to go with all young players or all vets. Again, the question is, why the **** are these our only two options?

Of course they're not. The entire premise is absurd. Teams are not homogenous.

Without even getting into the differences between pre and post cap roster construction or the comparative ease of acquiring lesser-known talents through the draft 30 years ago, this still ultimately falls under assembling the best roster you can. There's no need to overcomplicate it.

Trading off vets is almost always about diversifying assets. You don't expect to get an equal player back even in the future, you get back pieces that you hope can add up to your proverbial whole. The last thing this team needs is to diversify as we're already starting to see the crowding issues without nearing the crest of the system.

For example, if you decide to trade Giroux, you're not going to get back a potential 1C who has already been drafted. There's no motivation for the acquiring team to do that unless the org has soured on them for some reason. I understand saying keep your options open in the case of something like Seguin's exit from Boston, but those are the exceptions.

 

[Random Forest]

do we win a cup with giroux as our best player? do we win a cup with giroux as our most expensive player?

Now you're shifting the goalposts. Who said Giroux needs to be our best player? And Giroux's contract has five years left. Our cap situation looks just fine over those next five years with an overload of ELCs and RFAs that will mitigate his cap hit.

But this doesn't even speak to your original point which I had contended with. Pick a point and stick to it.

 

[duffy9748]

IMO, Hextall trading Schenn signified to me that he is making room for Simmonds in 2 years. Hextall will have to go the route he did with Ghost on 1 or 2 of the other young D but he can likely keep 28/93/17/14 around long term. He's added 7 forwards in Rounds 1 and 2 since 2016. He'll likely add another 1 or 2 forwards in next year's 1st round if he keeps the picks. That's important because if they have to lose some players down the road due to the cap, they'll have an influx of cheap young forwards similar to what Pittsburgh has been able to do.

Hextall is setting himself up with many contingency plans moving forward with the prospect pool he's built. Whichever direction he takes, he's set them up to be a player for the foreseeable future if 3-4 more prospects reach their potential.

 

[Lindberg]

Using Patrick Roy is a poor example. Has there really been a better player traded for reasons not strictly related to money? (i.e. not Gretzky)

Goalies can have up and down play depending on the team but Roy was the surest damn thing in the goal tending position.

 

[Jtown]

Of course they're not. The entire premise is absurd. Teams are not homogenous.

Without even getting into the differences between pre and post cap roster construction or the comparative ease of acquiring lesser-known talents through the draft 30 years ago, this still ultimately falls under assembling the best roster you can. There's no need to overcomplicate it.

Trading off vets is almost always about diversifying assets. You don't expect to get an equal player back even in the future, you get back pieces that you hope can add up to your proverbial whole. The last thing this team needs is to diversify as we're already starting to see the crowding issues without nearing the crest of the system.

For example, if you decide to trade Giroux, you're not going to get back a potential 1C who has already been drafted. There's no motivation for the acquiring team to do that unless the org has soured on them for some reason. I understand saying keep your options open in the case of something like Seguin's exit from Boston, but those are the exceptions.

well lets take a look at the best example of a post cap dynasty in the blackhaws. after the stanley cup what vet were they trying to trade unsuccessfully?

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

When you're up against the cap every summer it doesn't exactly give you an upper hand in leverage. Even then given the situation Chicago hasn't done too bad all these years weathering the storm.

These past few years in general has created a more favorable market to a buying team when taking on cap & term with a salary cap barely moving compared to before.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

well lets take a look at the best example of a post cap dynasty in the blackhaws. after the stanley cup what vet were they trying to trade unsuccessfully?

Either I don't understand your question or I don't understand what relevance it holds.

 

[Limeyjim]

Hasn't there been a rebuild phase since the Richards/Carter trade?

The stock piling of young defensemen by Ron Hextall seems to be very much a part of the re-building. But what are they re-building from? The last time they were in the finals was 7 years ago, and they've been dismal ever since.
I don't know much about the NHL, as I've been told several times on this forum, but those who have posted here about winning the Cup with Giroux etc. seems like pure day dreaming.
The last good goalie this team has put on it's roster, was the current GM. How many years has he been retired?
Defence and goaltending wins Cups.
I'd love to see Giroux & Company hoist the Stanley Cup, but I doubt it'll happen in the near future.

 

[John Flyers Fan]

We have/are in the middle of a rebuild.

Not all "rebuilds" mean Oilers/Penguins/76ers level of suckitude for 5+ years.

 

[Beef Invictus]

edmonton in 1984?

colorado in 96?

islanders in 80?

guess what all those teams started long periods of time of being highly competitive. b

'84 Oilers average age: 24

Average team age in 84: 24

Average age of '96 Colorado: 26

Average team age in '96: 26.5

Average age of '80 Islanders: 25

Average team age in '80: 26

None of those teams was particularly young by league standards of their time. They were dead average, and had plenty of players who would be considered veterans, especially since in the 80s average retirement age was 24 compared to 27-29 today. Each one had players over 30.





Source: http://www.quanthockey.com/TS/TS_AverageAge.php#TeamCharts

 

[Beef Invictus]

Now you're shifting the goalposts. Who said Giroux needs to be our best player? And Giroux's contract has five years left. Our cap situation looks just fine over those next five years with an overload of ELCs and RFAs that will mitigate his cap hit.

But this doesn't even speak to your original point which I had contended with. Pick a point and stick to it.

There's also the fact that the cap is likely to continue going up, even if slower than before, thus making G relatively cheaper as time goes on.

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

like i said before we are in the middle of a half rebuild. and i hate that. What worked so well for so many teams what have done successful rebuilds is go all out. And what so many gm's get wrong is trying to expedite the rebuild.

We should rename this thread to "When Sling Blade Went Fishing"

 

[Rebels57]

We should rename this thread to "When Sling Blade Went Fishing"

 

[Curufinwe]

There's also the fact that the cap is likely to continue going up, even if slower than before, thus making G relatively cheaper as time goes on.

I would not be surprised if Giroux isn't even the highest AAV on the team in two or three years. $9m in 2020 will not be that big of a cap hit.

 

[Tripod]

I would not be surprised if Giroux isn't even the highest AAV on the team in two or three years. $9m in 2020 will not be that big of a cap hit.

What?? Who is going to be higher? No one.

Provy is not getting that much right off a ELC.

 

[Curufinwe]

Patrick could if he puts up a 70-80 point season in 19-20. You'd be locking him up for almost the entire next decade.

 

[Striiker]

What?? Who is going to be higher? No one.

Provy is not getting that much right off a ELC.

You wouldn't pay a defensemen with back to back Norris wins more than $8.25 million?

 

[mja]

You wouldn't pay a defensemen with back to back Norris wins more than $8.25 million?

 

[NYCFlyer]

Of course we are rebuilding. The real questions are when do we become really competitive and do we have enough horsepower to get the job done. Hopefully Patrick is the real deal and becomes a top 10 player in the league.

 

[NHL Dude 120]

WTF you guys pretty much have the best prospect/ young players. And this is coming from a sens fans smh...

 

[deadhead]

And two 1st rd picks next season.
It's so obvious that Hextall had a long range plan to rebuild the team that it begs the question of how someone can't recognize it:
1) dump the older veterans and their contracts
2) garner lots of extra draft picks
3) build a top scouting group that can find hidden gems (Myers, Lindblom, etc)
4) rinse and repeat

The only veterans left that Hextall inherited:
G, V, Simmonds, Couts, Read, Raffl, MacDonald
Veterans aquired:
Filpulla (and a 4th & 7th), Lehtera (to obtain a 2nd 1st rd pick), Weise, Neuvirth
Of this group, the only ones sure to be on the team in 2019-20 are G, V, Couts and maybe Weise. Simmonds will be a FA, the rest will be history.