OT: Should Doug Armstrong get fired?

[Celtic Note]

And it's weird to write something in a way that implies all the wrongs were on him and it was just dumb luck that he fell into the success.

In all fairness there was a lot of luck involved on top of a lot of good moves.

 

[bleedblue1223]

In all fairness there was a lot of luck involved in top of a lot of good moves.

Couldn't we argue that with any Cup winner? I agree though. There's a portion of dumb luck with Berube and Binnington, luck throughout the playoffs, etc.

 

[Celtic Note]

Couldn't we argue that with any Cup winner? I agree though. There's a portion of dumb luck with Berube and Binnington, luck throughout the playoffs, etc.

Yes. All of them to a degree. But our run was on a Cinderella level.

Binnington was a lightning strike. I always knew he could be good, but that year was beyond imagination.

Our poor play to start the year, followed by a franchise record setting win streak.

A galvanizing Gloria.

Berube (a coach that I am not sure Armstrong viewed as the future leader) got an intern label after a poor selection of coach in Yeo (who was a lame duck to Hitch (another bone headed move)) completely failed in a fury of flames.

There was a lot that just flat out worked out in addition to some strong moves like ROR.

 

[BlueSeal]

Yes. All of them to a degree. But our run was on a Cinderella level.

Binnington was a lightning strike. I always knew he could be good, but that year was beyond imagination.

Our poor play to start the year, followed by a franchise record setting win streak.

A galvanizing Gloria.

Berube (a coach that I am not sure Armstrong viewed as the future leader) got an intern label after a poor selection of coach in Yeo (who was a lame duck to Hitch (another bone headed move)) completely failed in a fury of flames.

There was a lot that just flat out worked out in addition to some strong moves like ROR.

I’ll make this simple: Army was a good sized piece of this puzzle. Without him in it, you don’t get a Cup.

 

[Celtic Note]

I’ll make this simple: Army was a good sized piece of this puzzle. Without him in it, you don’t get a Cup.

Agreed. But he has also has created significant problems both then and now. He should not be immune from criticism because we won a Cup.

We don’t need to live in some all or nothing mindset.

 

[Xerloris]

Agreed. But he has also has created significant problems both then and now. He should not be immune from criticism because we won a Cup.

We don’t need to live in some all or nothing mindset.

Criticism? Is that what demanding he be fired is?

 

[BlueSeal]

Agreed. But he has also has created significant problems both then and now. He should not be immune from criticism because we won a Cup.

We don’t need to live in some all or nothing mindset.

It's not and has never been an all or nothing mindset. It's more a cause and effect sort of thing. Army makes a cause and there's an effect to it, positive or negative.

Saying that, there are factors that are beyond Army's control: The circumstances of the team structure when he came on, the number of players who injured out or retired and the choices of other players to leave. These are factors that are out of his control and all he can do is react to them. This alone created a huge gap that we are still trying to figure out how to fill without selling the farm.

If we're going to say that he did a poor job, then what would have been a better choice or thing to do?

I can name a few of those but there is no universe where Steen doesn't retire, JayBo doesn't end up forced into retirement or a few other things. I've become a firm believer that Pietrangelo was the catayst for his own leaving and while his staying might have had us not sign a player like Krug, it would have had us keep a Captain who admitted to 'not pick up a stick' until a certain point. That's not leadership we need and frankly, he was no leader.

Had we signed Pietrangelo to an obscene contract, we would be sitting here split between what a silly choice it was to do that and the 'he won us a Cup, pay him whatever' crowd. I'm that way with Binny because when the chips are down, he's the guy who goes out and commits outright theft. We took two games from the Avs because of his play and have a Cup as well. Pietrangelo can't even do half of that. Fight me on it.

I would firmly believe that Army would love to keep his job and perhaps his ego really does get in the way of it, I couldn't tell you one way or the other, but I could suspect it. But I don't think even he would be so bullheaded to not make a move that would greatly benefit the franchise and his own standing in it as well. That part is absolutely intertwined along with our need to make the playoffs to pay the bills. If we start missing the playoffs, it won't take much time for ownership to view Armstrong as a cog to be replaced.

 

[Celtic Note]

Criticism? Is that what demanding he be fired is?

Just because there is a thread titled that, it doesn’t mean everyone criticizing Armstrong is saying fire him. But, there are perfectly valid arguments for doing so. Every GM has a shelf life.

 

[Xerloris]

Just because there is a thread titled that, it doesn’t mean everyone criticizing Armstrong is saying fire him. But, there are perfectly valid arguments for doing so. Every GM has a shelf life.

When you compare what Armstrong has done to what other GM's have done, I'm not entirely sure there is a valid argument for firing him. He's in the top tier of GM's and we're completely oblivious to the torment of what other fans are going through with their GM's. Could you imagine having the Canucks GM? Chiarelli? Which btw is probably next in line for our GM job of Army is fired.

 

[TK 421]

When you compare what Armstrong has done to what other GM's have done, I'm not entirely sure there is a valid argument for firing him. He's in the top tier of GM's and we're completely oblivious to the torment of what other fans are going through with their GM's. Could you imagine having the Canucks GM? .

Btw 100% agree we are spoiled having DA as our GM.

 

[Celtic Note]

When you compare what Armstrong has done to what other GM's have done, I'm not entirely sure there is a valid argument for firing him. He's in the top tier of GM's and we're completely oblivious to the torment of what other fans are going through with their GM's. Could you imagine having the Canucks GM? Chiarelli? Which btw is probably next in line for our GM job of Army is fired.

I agree that he is one of the best in the business. We also have a chance of his replacement being terrible.

If Chiarelli is our next GM then the ownership group doesn’t have a clue and we were doomed anyway.

All of that acknowledged, if Army doesn’t start to right the ship (he has guided) then we could be having a conversation in a few years that says we screwed up by keeping him around too long.

Given his track record here and in Dallas, it could go either way. I personally think he deserves a bit more time, but this TDL and off-season are critical.

Army’s history with the Blues cannot be a crutch. Even the best GMs decline over time. There are plenty of examples and no one lasts forever.

 

[TruBlu]

For those that are leaning toward firing DA, who is currently available that has shown the ability to have the foresight and contract laddering he has? It's a short list (0). The biggest complaint I've ever seen against him is that he won't hand out NMC's. It's going to take a few years, but we'll be happy he's made the decisions he's made. Has he made bad decisions, of course, but I'll take him over just about any GM in the league right now.

 

[Frenzy31]

I agree that he is one of the best in the business. We also have a chance of his replacement being terrible.

If Chiarelli is our next GM then the ownership group doesn’t have a clue and we were doomed anyway.

All of that acknowledged, if Army doesn’t start to right the ship (he has guided) then we could be having a conversation in a few years that says we screwed up by keeping him around too long.

Given his track record here and in Dallas, it could go either way. I personally think he deserves a bit more time, but this TDL and off-season is critical.

Army’s history with the Blues cannot be a crutch. Even the best GMs decline over time. There are plenty of examples and no one lasts forever.

Why does everyone assume that Dallas and St. Louis will be similar outcomes? Like he has not grown as a person/professional in the past 15-20 years. Not saying he is immune from mistakes, I think he is a much better/more patient GM than he was back in Dallas.

Yes, Dallas was left a little high and dry, but I would argue that he hasn't sold off the entire prospect pool or our first rounds, has won a cup and we really have been competitive - going completely through 2 cores and now onto our 3rd. All while drafting in the bottom 10.

 

[TruBlu]

I agree that he is one of the best in the business. We also have a chance of his replacement being terrible.

If Chiarelli is our next GM then the ownership group doesn’t have a clue and we were doomed anyway.

All of that acknowledged, if Army doesn’t start to right the ship (he has guided) then we could be having a conversation in a few years that says we screwed up by keeping him around too long.

Given his track record here and in Dallas, it could go either way. I personally think he deserves a bit more time, but this TDL and off-season is critical.

Army’s history with the Blues cannot be a crutch. Even the best GMs decline over time. There are plenty of examples and no one lasts forever.

I don't care how good of a GM you are...In a cap system you can never stay on the top. Eventually the losses you take by trading draft picks and prospects to get rentals is going to catch up to you. DA has kept us competitive by not handing out emotional contracts to guys like Backes, Stastny, Petro, etc. That's the difference when it comes to us winning a cup.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Yeah, like in other threads it's been discussed. We generally feel pretty good about our forward and goalie situation, factoring in the young NHL talent and the prospects. I don't think our future has ever been sacrificed in his time here, that's probably why he holds on tight to the prospects that we have when he looks to make trades.

I still remember the days when we could draft worth a damn.

 

[Celtic Note]

Why does everyone assume that Dallas and St. Louis will be similar outcomes? Like he has not grown as a person/professional in the past 15-20 years. Not saying he is immune from mistakes, I think he is a much better/more patient GM than he was back in Dallas.

Yes, Dallas was left a little high and dry, but I would argue that he hasn't sold off the entire prospect pool or our first rounds, has won a cup and we really have been competitive - going completely through 2 cores and now onto our 3rd. All while drafting in the bottom 10.

Never said we would end up like Dallas. And yea people can learn. People also can repeat mistakes.

He has already said we are not rebuilding, but he better have an amazing retool plan, because if we don’t nail it we could wallow in mediocrity for a long time. Like I said TDL and this off-season will be critical. If we retool and don’t nail it, then we are looking more like Dallas than a new track.

 

[Majorityof1]

For those that are leaning toward firing DA, who is currently available that has shown the ability to have the foresight and contract laddering he has? It's a short list (0). The biggest complaint I've ever seen against him is that he won't hand out NMC's. It's going to take a few years, but we'll be happy he's made the decisions he's made. Has he made bad decisions, of course, but I'll take him over just about any GM in the league right now.

I guarantee someone said something similar about their GM when Yzerman was available to be a GM. OR even before Dallas gave the job to Armstrong. Its always, who is available with a track record. Why do they have to have a track record? Every great GM that ever lived didn't have a track record at some point in their career.

If your GM is not working for you...And that is a separate discussion whether Army is or not...but if your GM is not working for you, it would be foolish to keep employing him rather than exploring the market of new and upcoming GMS.

 

[Pizza!Pizza!]

I guarantee someone said something similar about their GM when Yzerman was available to be a GM. OR even before Dallas gave the job to Armstrong. Its always, who is available with a track record. Why do they have to have a track record? Every great GM that ever lived didn't have a track record at some point in their career.

If your GM is not working for you...And that is a separate discussion whether Army is or not...but if your GM is not working for you, it would be foolish to keep employing him rather than exploring the market of new and upcoming GMS.

I always liked how Ken Holland got selected to be the Wings GM, he had been their head scout and was with the organization as a player/scout for like 14 years before they promoted him. Instead of continuously fishing into the good ol' boys club of other teams' failed GMs, I think it would be prudent to figure out what team has the best scouts in the league and then try to poach their top talent.

Armstrong sucks but there is so, so much worse than him - I'd rather see a new face in the press box, but not an off the street snake oil salesman like that 'Yotes douche or that half baked small timer Dubas. Ideal candidate should have like 40 years in and around hockey but not have prior GM experience at the NHL level.

 

[Xerloris]

but not an off the street snake oil salesman like that 'Yotes douche or that half baked small timer Dubas.

Do you mean Bill Armstrong?

 

[TruBlu]

I guarantee someone said something similar about their GM when Yzerman was available to be a GM. OR even before Dallas gave the job to Armstrong. Its always, who is available with a track record. Why do they have to have a track record? Every great GM that ever lived didn't have a track record at some point in their career.

If your GM is not working for you...And that is a separate discussion whether Army is or not...but if your GM is not working for you, it would be foolish to keep employing him rather than exploring the market of new and upcoming GMS.

DA wasn't handed a good group and won the Stanley Cup a year or two after taking over as the GM. We won it a decade after he took the reins. His method is tried and true, at this point, and it seems like a lot of other organizations are starting to take the same approach. Look at the longevity that this small market hockey team has had and tell me it doesn't work? It requires some tough decisions, and often times not making your fan base happy, but it definitely works.

 

[ChicagoBlues]

DA wasn't handed a good group and won the Stanley Cup a year or two after taking over as the GM. We won it a decade after he took the reins. His method is tried and true, at this point, and it seems like a lot of other organizations are starting to take the same approach. Look at the longevity that this small market hockey team has had and tell me it doesn't work? It requires some tough decisions, and often times not making your fan base happy, but it definitely works.

To be clear, DA was the Blues' director of player personnel in 2008 and then was named GM in 2010.

 

[Tryblot]

You see all these teams that are just a shitshow year after year after year due to mismanagement and you have to appreciate what DA was able to do in such a short amount of time. Blues made the playoffs in 03/04 and then miss4d in 05/06 doing a complete rebuild and we're a consistent playoff team after the 2012 season (I believe?). I know there was another gm in there before 2010 but he did a lot of great things to make this team consistent.



As much as he has made some bad moves, I Still would be on board with him doing another rebuild, because I just don't want to potentially see the Blues become the next Sabres, coyotes, Canucks, etc.

 

[TruBlu]

To be clear, DA was the Blues' director of player personnel in 2008 and then was named GM in 2010.

Wait for it.......

 

[ChicagoBlues]

Wait for it.......

Wie bitte?

 

[Brewhouse Sports]

Can we lock this thread already? He's not going anywhere.