OT: Should Doug Armstrong get fired?

[bleedblue1223]

I can't decide if the Krug signing was arrogance or panic. It was an extremely consequential franchise disaster from the split second it was announced though.

Panic or an over-confidence in Krug or Parayko.

 

[Linkens Mastery]

I can't decide if the Krug signing was arrogance or panic. It was an extremely consequential franchise disaster from the split second it was announced though.

I honestly think it was a mixture of those and trying to fill the biggest need we had at the time. Army was confident in the right side of our defense at the time with Parayko and Faulk. Parayko was 26 and looked to be breaking out as a top pairing defenseman (sadly his back went to crap the next season and he's never been the same since) and Faulk played extremely well in the playoffs. But we had Dunn, Scandella, and a often injured Gunnersson on the left side.

Panic or an over-confidence in Krug or Parayko.

I don't know about over confidence in Parayko. But, I don't think anyone was prepared for, or expected, Parayko's Back to give out in the 2020-21 season.

 

[TruBlu]

I wouldn't call the Krug signing a "panic" so much as making sure we had a decent defenseman to take the place of Petro. Petro was never going to stay. Whether it was the NMC that DA wouldn't give or the money wasn't quite there, I don't know, but when he signed with Vegas we had no choice but to take the next best option we could get. At that point we had a need and Krug knew it so we had to overpay a little. It's just how things fell in to place. I don't think you see DA hold out that long without making a move if it was anyone other than Petro we were dealing with. I think there was some hometown hero sentiment there and it ultimately worked out that it hurt the team a little by waiting to see if he'd sign.

 

[bleedblue1223]

I don't know about over confidence in Parayko. But, I don't think anyone was prepared for, or expected, Parayko's Back to give out in the 2020-21 season.

I'm one of the biggest Parayko fans out there, but by the 20/21 season, we knew he wasn't going to hit that ceiling that we all thought he had in him of being able to unleash his shot into a true weapon, either on the PP or during 5v5. He had 5 goals in his first 14 NHL games, so we all thought he had Weber-type upside, but the reality was, when he entered the league, his offense was simply already at its peak.

Even without that back injury, I don't think Parayko was ever going to be an all-purpose 40+ dman. He's great defensively, and has the ability to play offensively, but ideally he's not getting much PP time and he's not the dman that you are relying on for offense.

Now some of the talk from the club is just that, talk for the casual fans. I do think the club thought there was more in him than actually was when Petro left.

I wouldn't call the Krug signing a "panic" so much as making sure we had a decent defenseman to take the place of Petro. Petro was never going to stay. Whether it was the NMC that DA wouldn't give or the money wasn't quite there, I don't know, but when he signed with Vegas we had no choice but to take the next best option we could get. At that point we had a need and Krug knew it so we had to overpay a little. It's just how things fell in to place. I don't think you see DA hold out that long without making a move if it was anyone other than Petro we were dealing with. I think there was some hometown hero sentiment there and it ultimately worked out that it hurt the team a little by waiting to see if he'd sign.

What you are describing is panic though, as it's the exact opposite of how Army handled the center situation and LD situation when Pietrangelo needed a proper top-pair partner.

 

[TruBlu]

I'm one of the biggest Parayko fans out there, but by the 20/21 season, we knew he wasn't going to hit that ceiling that we all thought he had in him of being able to unleash his shot into a true weapon, either on the PP or during 5v5. He had 5 goals in his first 14 NHL games, so we all thought he had Weber-type upside, but the reality was, when he entered the league, his offense was simply already at its peak.

Even without that back injury, I don't think Parayko was ever going to be an all-purpose 40+ dman. He's great defensively, and has the ability to play offensively, but ideally he's not getting much PP time and he's not the dman that you are relying on for offense.

Now some of the talk from the club is just that, talk for the casual fans. I do think the club thought there was more in him than actually was when Petro left.


What you are describing is panic though, as it's the exact opposite of how Army handled the center situation and LD situation when Pietrangelo needed a proper top-pair partner.

It's not panic so much as not having much left to pick from. You're losing your #1 dman. You can't just throw a guy getting out of the AHL into the lineup next season and say we'll be okay. He had to get someone he knew would be able to pick up some of the slack from what was lost. He didn't massively overpay, but I have no doubt he'd much rather have had Petro sign than what we ended up doing. One thing I'm positive about is that it is definitely evident he feared setting up a max length contract with high dollar money and a NMC that would most definitely put us in worse shape in the long run.

 

[PocketNines]

If "Petro was never going to stay" – something the player himself disputes in his interviews but it's simply assumed he's lying since that's the only way the claim works – then it makes the decision much worse because it implies Armstrong did actual thinking and research and landed on Krug.

 

[bleedblue1223]

It's not panic so much as not having much left to pick from. You're losing your #1 dman. You can't just throw a guy getting out of the AHL into the lineup next season and say we'll be okay. He had to get someone he knew would be able to pick up some of the slack from what was lost. He didn't massively overpay, but I have no doubt he'd much rather have had Petro sign than what we ended up doing. One thing I'm positive about is that it is definitely evident he feared setting up a max length contract with high dollar money and a NMC that would most definitely put us in worse shape in the long run.

That's panic though. Look at how he handled the center or LD situation in the past. When we weren't able to acquire our ideal target, he kicked the can down the road for when the right guy was available at the right cost. He massively overpaid with term, and now we don't have the flexibility to properly fix the defense.

A d-core that had Dunn instead of Krug wouldn't have been that much worse off, and would've had the cap flexibility to properly fix the group down the road when the right opportunity presented itself.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

Hindsight is always 20/20, but I thought the Leddy trade was unnecessary from the moment it was announced. It was a move for the sake of making a move, that didn't make us appreciably better short-term and had the chance to make us worse longer-term if (when) Leddy was brought back. It pushed the team further into "win now" mode at the expense of someone who could fill an NHL roster spot with a chance to grow some, and bound our hands with respect to the cap at a time we already knew the cap situation was tight and we could use a little flexibility. [Losing Sundqvist, who's finally over the ACL injury and looking at least competent with the Red Wings and would have provided stability here, is just salt in the wound.]

Walman was someone I said for a while had max upside as the weaker half of a 2nd pairing. The question was whether he would ever unlock it. We can all question whether he'd have done it here, but certainly the Walman we saw showed flashes of potential, even if he would have stretches where he'd play tentatively and look poor defensively as a result. You know, like with Dunn: had potential, questions over whether he'd hit it, was showing signs he wouldn't. Except with Dunn, he'd make mistakes and get burned and go right back out and do the same thing like he hadn't learned anything and didn't care about learning anything. [Which is why we left him out in the expansion draft; if he "got it" elsewhere, awesome for him and them - but he wasn't doing it here, and increasingly acted like he really didn't care.]

Would Walman have benefitted from more playing time, more games to gain experience, gain confidence, play through his mistakes and learn? Possibly. At the time of the trade, Walman had 58 NHL games under his belt (57 regular season, 1 playoff); Niko Mikkola had 85. If you were banking on Mikkola's potential - I think he's nothing more than the weak half of a 5/6 with limited additional upside, who other teams will overpay for thinking there's more there - then there's a great argument to have done the same thing with Walman.

Can you show me one single post of a person who thought the Blues should put their chips on Walman at the time he left the Blues? I think it would be easier to find a post predicting Tage Thompson would be a top 10 scorer in the league.

 

[ChicagoBlues]

I posted this a couple years ago, but I don’t like it that there is no one in the chain of command between him and Stillman.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

If "Petro was never going to stay" – something the player himself disputes in his interviews but it's simply assumed he's lying since that's the only way the claim works – then it makes the decision much worse because it implies Armstrong did actual thinking and research and landed on Krug.

It’s easier to believe Armstrong hoped Pietro would reconsider and held out longer than was wise. Faulk was tabbed to fill most of Pietro’s role, but Krug was the best UFA available to fill out the top 4 at that time. Maybe if Armstrong had read the tea leaves better or given up on re-signing Pietro earlier there were other avenues to acquire a better player than Krug. Or rather, a better fit to the needed role.

 

[TruBlu]

If "Petro was never going to stay" – something the player himself disputes in his interviews but it's simply assumed he's lying since that's the only way the claim works – then it makes the decision much worse because it implies Armstrong did actual thinking and research and landed on Krug.

Any player is going to stay if they get the money, term, and contract conditions they want. The GM's role is to make sure that the team's interests are served by getting the best possible talent at the best rate they can. I have no doubt Petro would have stayed if DA met the terms that he was wanting. The question is should we give Petro what he wants if it hurts the team's structure by doing so? Remember that doing so has implication elsewhere. Things like, for instance, having to let go of Perron are exactly what happens by overpaying for talent. There comes a point where you have to draw a line and say, yeah, we've got our #1 dman, but we can't fill three other open holes in the roster because we're at the cap. That inherently makes the team much worse than letting a guy go and bringing in a slightly less effective player at a cheaper cost so the leftover money can improve multiple other roster positions.

 

[PocketNines]

Any player is going to stay if they get the money, term, and contract conditions they want. The GM's role is to make sure that the team's interests are served by getting the best possible talent at the best rate they can. I have no doubt Petro would have stayed if DA met the terms that he was wanting. The question is should we give Petro what he wants if it hurts the team's structure by doing so? Remember that doing so has implication elsewhere. Things like, for instance, having to let go of Perron are exactly what happens by overpaying for talent. There comes a point where you have to draw a line and say, yeah, we've got our #1 dman, but we can't fill three other open holes in the roster because we're at the cap. That inherently makes the team much worse than letting a guy go and bringing in a slightly less effective player at a cheaper cost so the leftover money can improve multiple other roster positions.

I promise you I am aware of the basic cap concept and how you have to allocate dollars wisely. Between Pietrangelo @ 8.8 + Dunn at 4 and Krug + Faulk = 13M, I'll take Dunn + Pietrangelo + 200K of cap space because it's honestly an easy, correct decision.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Can you show me one single post of a person who thought the Blues should put their chips on Walman at the time he left the Blues? I think it would be easier to find a post predicting Tage Thompson would be a top 10 scorer in the league.

Can you show me where in my post I said anyone here thought the Blues should put their chips on Walman? Cause I'm positive I didn't type the phrase "some people here thought" or anything remotely close to that.

Perhaps your confusion is over the phrase "if you were banking on Mikkola's potential" which is intended to use you as a general "you" - maybe the more accurate word should have been "anyone" - and not as an inference directed at any individual here. Beyond that, if you want to insist that I was referring to any individual's post here at any point in the past, knock yourself out.

 

[TruBlu]

I promise you I am aware of the basic cap concept and how you have to allocate dollars wisely. Between Pietrangelo @ 8.8 + Dunn at 4 and Krug + Faulk = 13M, I'll take Dunn + Pietrangelo + 200K of cap space because it's honestly an easy, correct decision.

Petro call and tell you that was the case? Wow! We've all been in the dark.

 

[Linkens Mastery]

Can you show me where in my post I said anyone here thought the Blues should put their chips on Walman? Cause I'm positive I didn't type the phrase "some people here thought" or anything remotely close to that.

Perhaps your confusion is over the phrase "if you were banking on Mikkola's potential" which is intended to use you as a general "you" - maybe the more accurate word should have been "anyone" - and not as an inference directed at any individual here. Beyond that, if you want to insist that I was referring to any individual's post here at any point in the past, knock yourself out.

Knowing what I know now. I think I'd rather have Dunn-Pietro-Faulk over Krug-Parayko-Faulk.

But that's just my opinion.

 

[PocketNines]

Petro call and tell you that was the case? Wow! We've all been in the dark.

This is ridiculous. You had just finished making the point that if Armstrong had met Pietrangelo's ask and then explained to me Cap Concept 101 and now it's sarcasm because you don't actually know what Pietrangelo's current contract actually is?

 

[joe galiba]

Doug Armstrong needs to go... to the restroom before the next big deal​

 

[TruBlu]

This is ridiculous. You had just finished making the point that if Armstrong had met Pietrangelo's ask and then explained to me Cap Concept 101 and now it's sarcasm because you don't actually know what Pietrangelo's current contract actually is?

Neither of us does. That's my point.

 

[cmcalum]

When Doug Armstrong became the Blues GM in 2010 the Blues franchise was valued at $165 million. In 2021, the last that I have seen, the Blues franchise is worth $650 million. The investors are doing just fine and they will attribute much of that to Doug Armstrong. He is going nowhere!!!

 

[PocketNines]

Neither of us does. That's my point.

Neither of us knows that Pietrangelo inked an 8.8M contract ... ? Ok ... this is a bizarre conversation

 

[Xerloris]

If "Petro was never going to stay" – something the player himself disputes in his interviews but it's simply assumed he's lying since that's the only way the claim works – then it makes the decision much worse because it implies Armstrong did actual thinking and research and landed on Krug.

If Pietrangelo was a LD I think we would have kept him but he isn't a LD and we needed a LD. We got the best LD on the market. It just so happens that the best LD was not as good as Pietrangelo is at RD.

When Doug Armstrong became the Blues GM in 2010 the Blues franchise was valued at $165 million. In 2021, the last that I have seen, the Blues franchise is worth $650 million. The investors are doing just fine and they will attribute much of that to Doug Armstrong. He is going nowhere!!!

With inflation the value is probably 1.5 bill at this point.

 

[TruBlu]

Neither of us knows that Pietrangelo inked an 8.8M contract ... ? Ok ... this is a bizarre conversation

I'm sorry, I thought you'd said you understood basic cap concept. concepts and services offered in contracts also carry monetary value that are difficult to put a monetary value on. In fact, both parties may assign a pretty significant disparity between the two.

 

[PocketNines]

I'm sorry, I thought you'd said you understood basic cap concept. concepts and services offered in contracts also carry monetary value that are difficult to put a monetary value on. In fact, both parties may assign a pretty significant disparity between the two.

When you say neither of us knows what Pietrangelo would sign for ... dear lord ... have you seen this site, capfriendly ... ? It has been around for many many years now. To tell me that I have to know Pietrangelo personally to use 8.8M as his cap number is truly next level of bad faith.

 

[TruBlu]

When you say neither of us knows what Pietrangelo would sign for ... dear lord ... have you seen this site, capfriendly ... ? It has been around for many many years now. To tell me that I have to know Pietrangelo personally to use 8.8M as his cap number is truly next level of bad faith.

I can't tell if you're serious or just trolling. Are you saying Petro would sign for that amount of money here even if the NMC wasn't offered?

 

[PocketNines]

I can't tell if you're serious or just trolling. Are you saying Petro would sign for that amount of money here even if the NMC wasn't offered?

You can tell me, I'm a doctor.

He got 7 x 8.8M and an NMC and bonus structure he liked. So I don't have to know him personally (which was you trolling just to be clear) to use 8.8M when discussing your very basic and very easy to understand point about limited cap dollars to go around.