OT: Should Doug Armstrong get fired?

[TruBlu]

You can tell me, I'm a doctor.

He got 7 x 8.8M and an NMC and bonus structure he liked. So I don't have to know him personally (which was you trolling just to be clear) to use 8.8M when discussing your very basic and very easy to understand point about limited cap dollars to go around.

I don't believe you're a doctor. it was meant to be easy to understand. I see I was right.

 

[Xerloris]

You can tell me, I'm a doctor.

He got 7 x 8.8M and an NMC and bonus structure he liked. So I don't have to know him personally (which was you trolling just to be clear) to use 8.8M when discussing your very basic and very easy to understand point about limited cap dollars to go around.

Would he have signed that with St.Louis though? If he did not want to be here then he would not have.

I don't believe you're a doctor. it was meant to be easy to understand. I see I was right.

He plays one on the hockey forums

 

[TruBlu]

Would he have signed that with St.Louis though? If he did not want to be here then he would not have.



He plays one on the hockey forums

He probably stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

 

[PocketNines]

I don't believe you're a doctor. it was meant to be easy to understand. I see I was right.

You haven't been successful with your point, and if you like I can research the recent discussion that Brian went to lengths to explain so I don't have to waste my breath any more but the real story here ... oh man ... you haven't seen Airplane! ... ?

 

[TheDizee]

Army is the main reason Tarasenko is gone now. Not saying it was a good or bad move, just stating the obvious.

 

[Xerloris]

Army is the main reason Tarasenko is gone now. Not saying it was a good or bad move, just stating the obvious.

I don't see how Armstrong had anything to do with him requesting a trade. As far as anyone knows it was because of the way the medical staff handled his shoulder injuries.

 

[BlueSeal]

I don't see how Armstrong had anything to do with him requesting a trade. As far as anyone knows it was because of the way the medical staff handled his shoulder injuries.

Yeah he was leaving for awhile now, was being a professional while having the issues. Just want to note that.

 

[Celtic Note]

When Doug Armstrong became the Blues GM in 2010 the Blues franchise was valued at $165 million. In 2021, the last that I have seen, the Blues franchise is worth $650 million. The investors are doing just fine and they will attribute much of that to Doug Armstrong. He is going nowhere!!!

Unless the valuation dips and also there is the business side of the equation too. Zimmerman has been a big part of the financial success.

 

[Godfather]

Armstrong is the best GM we as fans have had.

I've been listening, and reading fans complain about trades for over 50 years.

Players come, and players go.

There's only 1 goal, and we had that fulfilled in 2019. Time to build our team to compete for this again.

"Nothing Else Matters"

 

[Ted Hoffman]

When Doug Armstrong became the Blues GM in 2010 the Blues franchise was valued at $165 million. In 2021, the last that I have seen, the Blues franchise is worth $650 million. The investors are doing just fine and they will attribute much of that to Doug Armstrong. He is going nowhere!!!

Let's put this "must of that increase in franchise valuation" claim this into context.

Most franchises, especially those on the lower end, saw a significant bump from '19-20 to '20-21 due to Seattle coming into the league. [The Kraken's original valuation in the list is $875M.] Most franchises took a further bump from '20-21 to '21-22 due to sales of entire franchises or pieces of franchises, which re-adjusted values across the board. Those increases are due to outside factors, not to anything specific that anyone in the Blues organization did, so I'm discarding those figures, and I'm discarding '19-20 because the pandemic either left valuations flat or slightly down.

Wikipedia only has numbers going back to 2012-13. The closest comps to the Blues in valuation in 2013, with their 2018-19 valuations, are:

Arizona: $200M in '12-13, $300M in '18-19
Florida: $240M in '12-13, $460M in '18-19
Columbus: $175M in '12-13, $325M in '18-19
Carolina: $187M in '12-13, $450M in '18-19
Tampa: $180M in '12-13, $470M in '18-19
Nashville: $205M in '12-13, $406M in '18-19

[NY Islanders are omitted; it went from $195M to $520M, but that partially had to do with moving arenas with the promise of a new arena in the near future.]

The Blues were valued at $185M in '12-13, $530M in '18-19 after winning the Stanley Cup.

Carolina transferred owners in 2018 to Tom Dundron, but that appears to have a negligible impact on Forbes' valuation. Tampa had been sold to Jeffrey Vinik in 2010; Nashville was last transferred in 2010 after the completion of the sale from the Del Biaggio stake from the 2007 sale. Arizona did Arizona stuff, Columbus had no change, Florida was sold in 2015 to Vincent Viola which resulted in a bump of $50-120 million.

Bottom line: if you index off Columbus or Arizona, at most you can attribute $200 million of the $365M in franchise appreciation to Armstrong. If you index off Tampa, who roughly had the same level of success as us (one Finals appearance, 0 Cups, went from playoff contender and not and then back to yes), it's at most $60 million. If any GM is worth that much to their franchise's value, they're getting severely underpaid and they should be getting a stake in the team along with a huge salary bump.

 

[cmcalum]

Let's put this "must of that increase in franchise valuation" claim this into context.

Most franchises, especially those on the lower end, saw a significant bump from '19-20 to '20-21 due to Seattle coming into the league. [The Kraken's original valuation in the list is $875M.] Most franchises took a further bump from '20-21 to '21-22 due to sales of entire franchises or pieces of franchises, which re-adjusted values across the board. Those increases are due to outside factors, not to anything specific that anyone in the Blues organization did, so I'm discarding those figures, and I'm discarding '19-20 because the pandemic either left valuations flat or slightly down.

Wikipedia only has numbers going back to 2012-13. The closest comps to the Blues in valuation in 2013, with their 2018-19 valuations, are:

Arizona: $200M in '12-13, $300M in '18-19
Florida: $240M in '12-13, $460M in '18-19
Columbus: $175M in '12-13, $325M in '18-19
Carolina: $187M in '12-13, $450M in '18-19
Tampa: $180M in '12-13, $470M in '18-19
Nashville: $205M in '12-13, $406M in '18-19

[NY Islanders are omitted; it went from $195M to $520M, but that partially had to do with moving arenas with the promise of a new arena in the near future.]

The Blues were valued at $185M in '12-13, $530M in '18-19 after winning the Stanley Cup.

Carolina transferred owners in 2018 to Tom Dundron, but that appears to have a negligible impact on Forbes' valuation. Tampa had been sold to Jeffrey Vinik in 2010; Nashville was last transferred in 2010 after the completion of the sale from the Del Biaggio stake from the 2007 sale. Arizona did Arizona stuff, Columbus had no change, Florida was sold in 2015 to Vincent Viola which resulted in a bump of $50-120 million.

Bottom line: if you index off Columbus or Arizona, at most you can attribute $200 million of the $365M in franchise appreciation to Armstrong. If you index off Tampa, who roughly had the same level of success as us (one Finals appearance, 0 Cups, went from playoff contender and not and then back to yes), it's at most $60 million. If any GM is worth that much to their franchise's value, they're getting severely underpaid and they should be getting a stake in the team along with a huge salary bump.

I’m not sure why we are putting any of this into context. The Blues were worth $165 Million in 2010 when Armstrong became GM and in 2021 were worth $650 million. He managed the team/players during those years. The investors have made almost $500 million dollars. Who do you think they will attribute that to? I am not the biggest Doug Armstrong fan as I think some of the contracts he has given out are ridiculous, Binnington, Schenn, Krug, etc. I consider some of those boat anchor contracts and will look very bad as they age. That said the investors are thrilled when they look at their net worth and they will attribute that to Armstrong.

 

[Blueline2757]

Fire Armstrong ASAP Tom Stillman!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

Fire Armstrong ASAP Tom Stillman!!!!!!!!!!!!

I thought you would be happy with ROR trade!

 

[Novacain]

Fire Armstrong ASAP Tom Stillman!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm very confused what you want this team to do constantly.

I've generally been pretty outspoken on my dislike for Army for a while, but it was always because I think he's spent most of the last 3 years refusing to pick a lane. I do think he's made a lot of mistakes, while also making some really good decisions, He has been trying to win now, but I've thought he's made multiple outright bad decisions while building our defensive unit. He traded an expiring contract and a good role player for legit real good capital today.

 

[Xerloris]

Fire Armstrong ASAP Tom Stillman!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lol what for this time?

I'm very confused what you want this team to do constantly.

I've generally been pretty outspoken on my dislike for Army for a while, but it was always because I think he's spent most of the last 3 years refusing to pick a lane. I do think he's made a lot of mistakes, while also making some really good decisions, He has been trying to win now, but I've thought he's made multiple outright bad decisions while building our defensive unit. He traded an expiring contract and a good role player for legit real good capital today.

Come on now, we all know why he wants Armstrong fired

 

[ChicagoBlues]

Fire Armstrong ASAP Tom Stillman!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hire Armstrong!

 

[Brewhouse Sports]

Time to lock this thread mods… not even playing.

 

[TheDizee]

its not a coincidence that the team turned into a pumpkin the year the let chuckie walk.

never f*** with team chemistry army. hope you learned your lesson the hard way.

 

[Xerloris]

its not a coincidence that the team turned into a pumpkin the year the let chuckie walk.

never f*** with team chemistry army. hope you learned your lesson the hard way.

There was no team chemistry with Lindgren. Just because Bortuzzo said some nice shit about him to make him feel good doesn't mean the team actually gave a single shit about some AHL goalie.

 

[Louie the Blue]

Hi. You all may remember me. It's been a while, I know. Been a while, mighty be a while. Who knows.

Specific to this thread, I'm pretty sure I'm the charter member of the "Fire Doug Armstrong" club. Glad to see it's picking up one or two people. Thought I would drop by for a moment and offer some thoughts.

The time to fire Doug Armstrong was November 19, 2018. You all remember that date, right? That's the day Armstrong's grand plan for a Cup lay in flames as he sat in front of the press and said he'd fired Mike Yeo, who "paid for the sins of myself and the entire organization."

That was 656 days after he'd sat in front of many of the same people, tears in his eyes, saying he was firing Ken Hitchcock, because "[Hitchcock]'s paying the price for all our failures, starting with mine. I'm the manager, I'm the, quote unquote, President of Hockey Operations ... it's my team." That was said more than once: Ken was paying the price for everything that Doug admitted was his fault. He said it all starts with him and it filters down; he'd let the players become independent contractors, whatever mess was there was on him, admitted multiple times that he was responsible, and Armstrong resolved to take care of that with the infamous words, "I'm not firing another head coach; core guys will be moved off this roster first."

But despite all of the "it's my fault" talk, with 6+ years as the GM and one conference final appearance (and 3 1st-round exits) to show for everything he inherited and all the moves he'd made over his tenure to improve the team and turn it into a Cup contender, with the team sitting 9th in the West after intentional decisions made in the offseason to "improve" the team coming off that conference finals appearance, ownership backed Armstrong and decided that it had to be Hitchcock who was the one walking out the door.

And yet, 656 days later, Armstrong was sitting in front of the same people, saying the same things. Yeo was "paying for the sins of the organization ... my sins." It was the 2nd time in 656 days that Armstrong spent time admitting his mistakes and casting blame on core players - players he decided to invest in - and yet someone else took the fall. Lots of talk, lots of planning, lots of grand ideas and lofty goals, and on November 19, 2018 the team was sitting at 7-9-3, playing indifferent, indecisive hockey after early season routs by Winnipeg, Columbus, Minnesota and San Jose (and with routs by Winnipeg, Arizona, Vancouver, Calgary, Vancouver and Pittsburgh still to come) and no sign that it was going to get its shit together.

Remember: going into the 2018-19 season, Armstrong's grand plan had been the following:

Make the monster trade for O'Reilly​

Sign Bozak, Perron and Maroon​

Lots of talk in the offseason about winning a Cup​

Go in with the same head coach who'd struggled down the stretch in 2018​

Go in with the same starting goalie who'd struggled down the stretch in 2018 and increasingly blamed teammates for his own team-deflating mistakes in net​

​

Those last two items were critical flaws. It was two flaws immediately called out by everyone paying attention to the team, that made everyone question the idea that the Blues are serious Stanley Cup contenders, and yet Armstrong decided to plow ahead into the season as if everything else he'd done was going to paper those over.

Also lingering out there, by many accounts, was a division in the locker room. Armstrong had to know that existed, and yet he ignored it by assuming everything else he'd done was going to fix that division. That wasn't just guys still being independent contractors, who weren't just the mid-tier, lower-tier guys. The division in the locker room was alluded to by Jeremy Rutherford multiple times, and it was something Armstrong chose to ignore.

We know how 2018-19 started. It's why we have the "describe this season in GIFs" thread, among perhaps a few others that still live on. Perhaps the depth of that crash wasn't fully anticipated, but when the first 7 weeks of the season went that badly with all the known issues that went unaddressed, that all lay at the feet of the guy who created it. For all the trades Armstrong had allegedly won over the years, for all the alleged great contracts he'd signed, for everything he'd allegedly done that was fantastic, on November 19, 2018 the team was nowhere close to where Blues fans thought it would be. All that brilliant decision-making, all that super-genius vision, had created a 7-9-3 team that had no emotion that left him saying "the core group's equity built up is gone" - a core group that he created and invested in, that he was solely responsible for, a group he was pointing the finger at for the 2nd time in 656 days and which he'd really not touched.

And yet, it was Mike Yeo who was the only one who paid the price for it on the morning of November 19, 2018. And in the 7 weeks after, even as the team played indifferent hockey and showed no pride some nights, with the core group's equity "gone," Armstrong did nothing.

Everything else that happened after had nothing to do with any "master genius" decisions by Armstrong. The entire 2019 Cup run, while spectacular and thrilling and something we'll all remember, was one of the greatest flukes of all-time, right there with the Rams winning the Super Bowl after making headline moves to bring in Marshall Faulk and others, only to see intended starting QB Trent Green went down with a blown ACL and the team had to turn to a backup who'd thrown 11 passes in his NFL career and the expectation was now crap, get through the season without being embarrassed, let's get to next season and try to put it all together. That Cup run happened in spite of Armstrong's planning and ideas.

Berube was hired only to get through the rest of the season; Armstrong promised a comprehensive, top-to-bottom search for the next head coach: "there's going to be experienced head coaches on that list, there's going to be European head coaches on that list, there's going to be college head coaches on that list, major junior head - we're not going to, to minimize or limit the scope that we're going to look at." There was zero intent that morning to give Berube the position full-time.

Berube had to sort through all the stuff going on in the locker room and get guys to pull together. Armstrong left the same players in place, not making one move to ship any real or alleged problem guys out. [Unless, I suppose, you think Chad Johnson was the source of all the troubles in the locker room.]

Binnington was thrown in net because Johnson - signed on July 1 to be the backup instead of waiting to see if someone internally could win the backup spot - crapped the crease after a good 3 games that had a small but growing number of Blues fans wondering if he should be the starter instead of Allen, Allen was still being a head case, and Ville Husso was hurt. Binnington was the last option before going outside the organization. He wasn't given any regard by Armstrong, was waived at one point with the intention of sending him to the ECHL. The idea was to just get through the season, then figure goaltending out in the offseason, and if Binnington was crap, whatever - Armstrong would try to actually fix it in 5 or 6 months.

When Yeo was fired in 2018, Armstrong talked about holding players accountable. The core group's equity built up is gone. In the locker room speech on November 1, Armstrong told the players that he was not firing Berube and talked about holding players accountable, which would imply that again, the core group's equity was gone. As I type this at 9am on February 2, 2023, no one on the roster from opening night has been held accountable. Everyone is still here. If Armstrong felt the need to go into the locker room 8 games into the season and speak at the players for 40 minutes and deliver some this is on all of you message, you have to ask what he already knew was wrong that he felt the need to go do that.

I don't think one Cup parade that we all waited years for gives a lifetime free pass for poor decision-making. I also don't think you hand the keys to a rebuild to a guy who backed into a Cup and then engaged in decisions that reduced the roster to what it currently is, with no sign it's anywhere near being a Cup contender in the next few seasons. When he keeps admitting his mistakes but then says "someone else has to pay the price" it begs the simple question: when should Armstrong finally pay the price for his mistakes? At some point, Doug Armstrong needs to be the guy who pays the price for all his poor decisions, all his sins.

It should have been 1536 days ago. It should be now.

There's so much here to digest and that I disagree with.

1. The 2019-2020 team went 42-19-10 before the bubble. I think that shows the 2018-2019 wasn't a fluke. I also think the 2021-2022 season shows 2018-2019 wasn't a fluke either. 2020-2021 had an asinine # of man games lost to injury (2nd in the league), resulting in actual AHL defensemen playing in the POs vs the Avalanche.

2. What did Armstrong inherit? Are you referring specifically to the personnel he inherited, a botched rebuild, or a team that missed the POs 4 of the previous 5 seasons after the lockout?

3. Look at all of the other teams that have won the Cups since 2010. Name all of the teams that actually won according to the "master plan" from their GM that went perfect from Day 1. I'll give Chicago (though that was a combination of Tallon/Bowman), Pittsburgh with Rutherford, Tampa with Yzerman/BriseBois. The Avalanche were a by-product of a botched rebuild that went terribly, leading to Roy stepping down and Sakic taking over. Their first year with Bednar wasn't supposed to be a 48 point season. They weren't supposed to drop down in the lottery to get Makar. The Kings were a by-product of a failed rebuild as well as were the Bruins. Are you going to hold those three organizations GMs (Sakic, Lombardi, and Chiarreli) accountable as well or does that not fit the narrative since they aren't Doug Armstrong?

4. Armstrong's nailed 2 of his 3 hires as HC. He got rid of the one he messed up on fairly quickly. Why doesn't he deserve the benefit of the doubt?

This is all without even mentioning that he ran the team for two seasons (including one of the best regular seasons in franchise history in 2011-2012) with an ownership group that could not afford to pay the bills to the point that the league had to take over to bankroll and operate the team.

 

[Louie the Blue]

I think my one real frustration with Army's handling of the defense was deciding to give Krug a big contract, instead of forcing Dunn into a bigger role and letting him sink or swim. And the more I thought about this decision, the more I believed that this was the mistake and how it was out of character for Army.

Compare it to how we handle centers for years. Army would involved on bigger names like Lecavalier, Spezza, Weiss, and I'm sure there are some others, but he never went to a point where it was a bad deal from the start, he'd pivot to less than ideal backup options like Derek Roy or Lehtera. And even when he'd make a big deal like Stastny, it was for relatively short term. In the search for the centers when we eventually got Schenn and O'Reilly, Army clearly valued getting the right guy and if that guy couldn't have been acquired, then maintaining flexibility to acquire the right guy when they were available was valued next.

If we had Dunn instead of Krug, even just comparing Krug's time in Boston and Dunn's play up to that point, I don't think we would've been that worse off. Neither were going to solve the Petro problem, both were going to need sheltering, and Dunn was going to allow us to have the flexibility to acquire the defensemen we actually needed.

Krug's contract isn't even top 5 in terms of worst decisions made by Armstrong (Miller trade, Lehtera contract, making Yeo HC, thinking Allen could be a 1A/workhorse goalie, trading Oshie for Copley + Brouwer).

I think a bigger criticism with the D might be Scandella, though. He panic traded for him (and gave up more to acquire him than Montreal did from Buffalo earlier that season) and then extended him without having him play any substantial # of games with the Blues at a rate for a role he shouldn't be playing in.

I think Scandella is good, but overpaid, and that his contract exacerbates Krug and Krug's limitations.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Krug's contract isn't even top 5 in terms of worst decisions made by Armstrong (Miller trade, Lehtera contract, making Yeo HC, thinking Allen could be a 1A/workhorse goalie, trading Oshie for Copley + Brouwer).

I think a bigger criticism with the D might be Scandella, though. He panic traded for him (and gave up more to acquire him than Montreal did from Buffalo earlier that season) and then extended him without having him play any substantial # of games with the Blues at a rate for a role he shouldn't be playing in.

I think Scandella is good, but overpaid, and that his contract exacerbates Krug and Krug's limitations.

All of those were low impact though. Miller didn't really cost much in the long run and he didn't double down om the mistake. Lehtera's deal wasn't so bad that he couldn't get out of it, and with a little extra, he got Schenn. Yeo sucked, but he was able to quickly pivot to Berube. Allen and Oshie are no where near as bad as Krug.

 

[Louie the Blue]

All of those were low impact though. Miller didn't really cost much in the long run and he didn't double down om the mistake. Lehtera's deal wasn't so bad that he couldn't get out of it, and with a little extra, he got Schenn. Yeo sucked, but he was able to quickly pivot to Berube. Allen and Oshie are no where near as bad as Krug.

You're not wrong regarding Miller, but that still doesn't mean it was a good trade. At the time, I was all for Armstrong going all in while many others didn't think Miller solved the team's problem(and those who thought he didn't were correct).

Lehtera's deal was so bad that he had to dump a first round pick to just get rid of him.

Agree regarding Yeo.

Allen's play combined with playing behind an atrocious team defense led the team to firing Yeo as well as sending Johnson out of St. Louis (because he was even worse than Allen) along with desperately calling up Binnington.

Giving up Oshie for 1 productive season from Brouwer is terrible asset management.

Krug's at least performing at the level he's being paid. All of the other moves in conjunction with his contract (specifically Parayko and Scandella) exacerbate Krug's contract when in isolation it isn't bad.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

Lehtera's deal was so bad that he had to dump a first round pick to just get rid of him.

this is just not true. some fan made it up and others act like it’s gospel but that isn’t what happened.

 

[bleedblue1223]

I didn't like the Oshie deal either, but like the Dunn offers, I doubt people were offering a ton for Oshie, especially since Army was looking for someone that could make an impact immediately. And that 3rd we got, we used to trade up to get Tage Thompson. Brouwer, even though it was just 1 season, formed a great like with Stastny and Fabbri. That deal I hated at the time, but it really wasn't that bad in the end.