OT: Should Doug Armstrong get fired?

[bleedblue1223]

Here's the other thing with firing Army, making that move would monumentally change everything about the organization. We might have issues with certain roster decisions, but if you make that change and you don't nail the replacement, you potentially ruin what is a really good amateur scouting group, among other things in the organization that are very well run.

 

[Majorityof1]

I would say prior to going into the cup year, he had competely restructured the team of the past couple of seasons. We retooled completely and moved away from the Backes/Staz group after getting to the Western Conference Finals.

He moved Shatty/Staz at the deadline for assets. He added key pieces to the team via trade - Schenn/ROR as he moved onto Tarasenko, Schwartz core.

I think he has done a great job of identifying NHL talent in bargain shopping. I think this team is in a much better place the Dallas was when he left. We have real solid young talent is Thomas/Kyrou. We are not in the bottom 10 any more for prospects, despite constantly drafting in the bottom 10 of the first round.

Remember, we missed the playoffs the season after we traded for Schenn. And that was with a very good team, including Pie.....

I think you are expecting him to not move ROR/Tarasenko and retool/rebuild. I think we need to see what he does at the trade deadline, what moves he makes at the draft, and how he addresses the team next year.

My worry is not that he doesn't trade our UFAs. Its more that he trades for whatever is available to replace them and locks them in to long term contracts. Basically what he did with Krug. I don't want another Krug or 2.

I still view what he did prior to our cup year as a minor retool. We underperformed that season, but he didn't make massive changes. He basically had added/replaced one piece at a time for years before hand. Getting Schenn was one year, RoR another, JBouw another. He makes one major move a year, and sees how it goes. It just kind of all finally clicked the cup year. He did add Perron and Bozak our cup year too, but nobody thought that those were the major moves at least Perron turned out to be.

This year we need to revamp our coaching staff. We need to possibly replace a top 70+ point winger, a Selke winning C, and versitle middle 6 forward who is one of our only phyiscal presences. We need to retool our defense by adding a top 4 LHD who can play all situations. We don't have much available cap so we have to create some cap room. We may have to figure out our goalie situation if Binnington can't get it together. That is a whole lot more than he's had to face before.

 

[Frenzy31]

My worry is not that he doesn't trade our UFAs. Its more that he trades for whatever is available to replace them and locks them in to long term contracts. Basically what he did with Krug. I don't want another Krug or 2.

I still view what he did prior to our cup year as a minor retool. We underperformed that season, but he didn't make massive changes. He basically had added/replaced one piece at a time for years before hand. Getting Schenn was one year, RoR another, JBouw another. He makes one major move a year, and sees how it goes. It just kind of all finally clicked the cup year. He did add Perron and Bozak our cup year too, but nobody thought that those were the major moves at least Perron turned out to be.

This year we need to revamp our coaching staff. We need to possibly replace a top 70+ point winger, a Selke winning C, and versitle middle 6 forward who is one of our only phyiscal presences. We need to retool our defense by adding a top 4 LHD who can play all situations. We don't have much available cap so we have to create some cap room. We may have to figure out our goalie situation if Binnington can't get it together. That is a whole lot more than he's had to face before.

I agree about the long term contact being issued too soon or overpay via free agency - which I don't think he has done beyond Krug and Staz. His primary way of adding talent is via trade. Adding assets, such as 2nd rounders, late 1st rounders , just give him ammo for a Buchy type trade

But I don't think you are giving him enough credit. To win the cup, it was a couple of year undertaking. Which was my point, I would consider the Jaybo move a move under the Backes/Stas core. He added Schenn, then missed the playoffs, than he added Perron, Marroon, ROR, and Bozak. Marroon, Bozak, Perron, and then ROR... That was a great offseason. I don't know if we will see that again.

Even if we were contending this year, it wouldn't change anything about this upcoming summer. The window was closing after this season due to cap crunch, ROR, Tarasenko, Barby UFA status, which is why, IMO he had to add Leddy and went a bit all in with the cap he had to address the D. Atleast this way we are getting value for our UFAs instead of a playoff run without a cup and losing them for nothing.

To me, he was trying to move Krug, add Leddy, and keep Perron. But he wasn't able to move them prior to the draft and leading up to the UFA opening.

Just revamping this summer isn't likely to change anything - usually it takes time for players to get acclimated. This is a 2-3 year process, where we are better next year and hopefully make the playoffs, and then contend form there.

We all agree that this team needs a young LHD - So my question for you is, do you go after one of the available LHD this offseason via trade? Both have an OK body of work but legit question marks about upside and/or injury history.

 

[Majorityof1]

I agree about the long term contact being issued too soon or overpay via free agency - which I don't think he has done beyond Krug and Staz. His primary way of adding talent is via trade. Adding assets, such as 2nd rounders, late 1st rounders , just give him ammo for a Buchy type trade

But I don't think you are giving him enough credit. To win the cup, it was a couple of year undertaking. Which was my point, I would consider the Jaybo move a move under the Backes/Stas core. He added Schenn, then missed the playoffs, than he added Perron, Marroon, ROR, and Bozak. Marroon, Bozak, Perron, and then ROR... That was a great offseason. I don't know if we will see that again.

Even if we were contending this year, it wouldn't change anything about this upcoming summer. The window was closing after this season due to cap crunch, ROR, Tarasenko, Barby UFA status, which is why, IMO he had to add Leddy and went a bit all in with the cap he had to address the D. Atleast this way we are getting value for our UFAs instead of a playoff run without a cup and losing them for nothing.

To me, he was trying to move Krug, add Leddy, and keep Perron. But he wasn't able to move them prior to the draft and leading up to the UFA opening.

Just revamping this summer isn't likely to change anything - usually it takes time for players to get acclimated. This is a 2-3 year process, where we are better next year and hopefully make the playoffs, and then contend form there.

We all agree that this team needs a young LHD - So my question for you is, do you go after one of the available LHD this offseason via trade? Both have an OK body of work but legit question marks about upside and/or injury history.

I'm not saying fire him. I'm saying just watch what he does and make a decision before he can bury us too deep like he did Dallas. I give him a ton of credit for getting the cup, but its been a slow decline as he chased keeping that window open.

As for the bolded question, I know its a cop out answer, but it depends. If (a) we get good assets in trade for our UFAs (2) if we can move out Krug (maybe Scandella, hopefully both) and (3) if we get a good deal, then I'd proably pull the trigger. I'm not paying the rumoured asking price on Chychrun. I'm not giving our only first in this draft. And we don't have the cap without moving out one of our D.

Neither contract has too much length. Both have 2 years after this one. At worst, they could be a stop gap until whatever prospect we grab can be ready. I'm want as much redundancy as we can get on positions of need. Draft a top 4 D and sign a top 4 D. If one doesn't work out, hopefullt the other does. If both do, you can always trade one for a haul.

I'm also looking at UFA. If we can get Gavrikov or Graves on a mid-term, mid-dollar deal, that might be an ok stop gap until we can draft or trade for a prospect that is a more long term solution. If we fix our defensive scheme and can get Parayko healthy and playing like he has in the past, then we don't need a stud #1 D. It would be nice. But we can get by with a more well rounded top 4 guy than Krug.

 

[Xerloris]

Your right Xerloris, DA had nothing to do with our current situation:

Alex Petrangelo - #1 D-man, walks for nothing
Joel Edmundson - #3 D-man, traded to Car. with a first
Vince Dunn - #3 D-man given to the Kraken

Pat Maroon - 4th line grinder - heart & soul guy - Let walk for nothing - won two more cups
David Perron - 1st line sniper - Let walk for nothing
Zach Sanford - Traded for Brown who is a waste of ice time (and shouldn't have a spot on an NHL roster)
Jaden Swartz - Top 6 forward - Let walk for nothing

And here is the thing that gets me. When looking at UFA's that he let walk, there wasn't much salary difference or term difference in price/years. And DA made other moves that could have covered the difference. Also, I didn't want to give Petro a FNT but when you hand them out like candy to lesser or inferior players, i got a problem with that. All these moves / non-moves did not work out in our favor.

Faulk was, is and always will be twice and maybe three times the player Edmundson is. It was a Brilliant trade and It was not a 1st. It was Bokk who btw is terrible.

Vince Dunn was exposed because IMO Armstrong was positive they were going to take Tarasenko.

I do miss Maroon and wish we would have resigned him.

Perron was offered a contract and in hindsight, if I had known the team would be this shit I would have chosen Perron over Leddy but we desperately needed a LD and Leddy is pretty good.

Sanford is trash and it's a miracle we got anything for him. We ALL wanted Sanford gone and the only thing he ever did for this team was let Bortuzzo punch him in the face.

Schwartz was leaving no matter what. He went to be closer to his family after his dad died. We all knew that was going to happen. Also we replaced him with Saad who is pretty damn good.

The biggest losses to this team were things completely out of the hands of Armstrong.

 

[LGB]

Vince Dunn was exposed because IMO Armstrong was positive they were going to take Tarasenko.

He could have protected Tarasenko but chose to protect Sundqvist over him

 

[Xerloris]

He could have protected Tarasenko but chose to protect Sundqvist over him

• Seven forwards, three defencemen and one goaltender.
• Eight skaters (forwards or defencemen) and one goaltender.

So to protect Dunn we would have had to protect 8 skaters instead of 10 total.

 

[LGB]

• Seven forwards, three defencemen and one goaltender.
• Eight skaters (forwards or defencemen) and one goaltender.

So to protect Dunn we would have had to protect 8 skaters instead of 10 total.

Separate issue, but I would have protected Dunn rather than Krug. Or better yet, just don't sign Krug in the first place.

 

[Xerloris]

Separate issue, but I would have protected Dunn rather than Krug. Or better yet, just don't sign Krug in the first place.

I get what you mean but it is what it is and at some point people need to understand that Armstrong did not have hindsight when he signed Krug. He signed the best LD on the market at the time.

I would have liked to keep Dunn but he chose to keep more assets in the expansion draft.

 

[LGB]

I get what you mean but it is what it is and at some point people need to understand that Armstrong did not have hindsight when he signed Krug. He signed the best LD on the market at the time.

I would have liked to keep Dunn but he chose to keep more assets in the expansion draft.

It doesn't take hindsight. That's a very risky contract given Krug's age. On top of that, he knows the expansion draft is coming and signing Krug will force you to give up Dunn. Also, although this hasn't been an issue because of all the injuries, Krug makes a top prospect Perunovich pretty much redundant.

Not following the logic that giving up Dunn lets us keep more assets.

 

[Xerloris]

It doesn't take hindsight. That's a very risky contract given Krug's age. On top of that, he knows the expansion draft is coming and signing Krug will force you to give up Dunn. Also, although this hasn't been an issue because of all the injuries, Krug makes a top prospect Perunovich pretty much redundant.

Not following the logic that giving up Dunn lets us keep more assets.

We were not going to expose Krug after signing him so to protect Dunn we had to choose to protect 8 skaters instead of 7 +3. That would be 2 less assets protected.

 

[LGB]

We were not going to expose Krug after signing him so to protect Dunn we had to choose to protect 8 skaters instead of 7 +3. That would be 2 less assets protected.

Probably not, although I'd argue it would have been the best thing to do. So we just shouldn't have signed him in the first place.

 

[Xerloris]

Probably not, although I'd argue it would have been the best thing to do. So we just shouldn't have signed him in the first place.

I agree but not because of the player but more so because of the contract.

 

[Daley Tarasenkshow]

Here's the other thing with firing Army, making that move would monumentally change everything about the organization. We might have issues with certain roster decisions, but if you make that change and you don't nail the replacement, you potentially ruin what is a really good amateur scouting group, among other things in the organization that are very well run.

Really the only thing changed will be the philosophy that Army brings to that scouting group. Of course scouts can leave on their own accord anytime, but most scouting staffs stay intact even through a GM change. The Blackhawks scouting staff is nearly the same as it was under Stan Bowman, for example, and the same can be said for the Sharks staff now with Grier as the GM. It’s a common misconception that scouting staffs are swapped when a new GM takes over, but it’s really never that case.

If you meant the way the staff is ran, than yes I agree it could leave things uneasy.

Coaching staffs, however, are changed in bulk and I have a hard time seeing Berube stay if Army is fired.

 

[TheDizee]

Going to be very hard to get good team chemistry back with the personnel here.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Really the only thing changed will be the philosophy that Army brings to that scouting group. Of course scouts can leave on their own accord anytime, but most scouting staffs stay intact even through a GM change. The Blackhawks scouting staff is nearly the same as it was under Stan Bowman, for example, and the same can be said for the Sharks staff now with Grier as the GM. It’s a common misconception that scouting staffs are swapped when a new GM takes over, but it’s really never that case.

If you meant the way the staff is ran, than yes I agree it could leave things uneasy.

Coaching staffs, however, are changed in bulk and I have a hard time seeing Berube stay if Army is fired.

We'll have a new President of Hockey Ops, it'll be a bigger change than normal.

 

[Frenzy31]

I'm not saying fire him. I'm saying just watch what he does and make a decision before he can bury us too deep like he did Dallas. I give him a ton of credit for getting the cup, but its been a slow decline as he chased keeping that window open.

As for the bolded question, I know its a cop out answer, but it depends. If (a) we get good assets in trade for our UFAs (2) if we can move out Krug (maybe Scandella, hopefully both) and (3) if we get a good deal, then I'd proably pull the trigger. I'm not paying the rumoured asking price on Chychrun. I'm not giving our only first in this draft. And we don't have the cap without moving out one of our D.

Neither contract has too much length. Both have 2 years after this one. At worst, they could be a stop gap until whatever prospect we grab can be ready. I'm want as much redundancy as we can get on positions of need. Draft a top 4 D and sign a top 4 D. If one doesn't work out, hopefullt the other does. If both do, you can always trade one for a haul.

I'm also looking at UFA. If we can get Gavrikov or Graves on a mid-term, mid-dollar deal, that might be an ok stop gap until we can draft or trade for a prospect that is a more long term solution. If we fix our defensive scheme and can get Parayko healthy and playing like he has in the past, then we don't need a stud #1 D. It would be nice. But we can get by with a more well rounded top 4 guy than Krug.

I don't know about Gavrikov. Graves I can get behind, but I don't get the hype of Gavrikov. And I don't think your answer is cop out. I think it would depend on the price.

Another thought is Sandin. Seen him offered in place of a 2023 1st from Toronto (not that anyone ever trades a D prior to the playoffs, but if they add a D at the cost of their 1st, than they may be willing to move him. He will be 23 shortly and does fit in with the core a bit better than a late 1st.

 

[tfriede2]

I don't know about Gavrikov. Graves I can get behind, but I don't get the hype of Gavrikov. And I don't think your answer is cop out. I think it would depend on the price.

Another thought is Sandin. Seen him offered in place of a 2023 1st from Toronto (not that anyone ever trades a D prior to the playoffs, but if they add a D at the cost of their 1st, than they may be willing to move him. He will be 23 shortly and does fit in with the core a bit better than a late 1st.

But where would he slot? If we got rid of Krug, then sure, but I don’t see that happening. He seems like more of what we already have. And even then, we still have Perunovich who, despite his inability to stay healthy, still has a very high ceiling as an offensive D.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Hi. You all may remember me. It's been a while, I know. Been a while, mighty be a while. Who knows.

Specific to this thread, I'm pretty sure I'm the charter member of the "Fire Doug Armstrong" club. Glad to see it's picking up one or two people. Thought I would drop by for a moment and offer some thoughts.

The time to fire Doug Armstrong was November 19, 2018. You all remember that date, right? That's the day Armstrong's grand plan for a Cup lay in flames as he sat in front of the press and said he'd fired Mike Yeo, who "paid for the sins of myself and the entire organization."

That was 656 days after he'd sat in front of many of the same people, tears in his eyes, saying he was firing Ken Hitchcock, because "[Hitchcock]'s paying the price for all our failures, starting with mine. I'm the manager, I'm the, quote unquote, President of Hockey Operations ... it's my team." That was said more than once: Ken was paying the price for everything that Doug admitted was his fault. He said it all starts with him and it filters down; he'd let the players become independent contractors, whatever mess was there was on him, admitted multiple times that he was responsible, and Armstrong resolved to take care of that with the infamous words, "I'm not firing another head coach; core guys will be moved off this roster first."

But despite all of the "it's my fault" talk, with 6+ years as the GM and one conference final appearance (and 3 1st-round exits) to show for everything he inherited and all the moves he'd made over his tenure to improve the team and turn it into a Cup contender, with the team sitting 9th in the West after intentional decisions made in the offseason to "improve" the team coming off that conference finals appearance, ownership backed Armstrong and decided that it had to be Hitchcock who was the one walking out the door.

And yet, 656 days later, Armstrong was sitting in front of the same people, saying the same things. Yeo was "paying for the sins of the organization ... my sins." It was the 2nd time in 656 days that Armstrong spent time admitting his mistakes and casting blame on core players - players he decided to invest in - and yet someone else took the fall. Lots of talk, lots of planning, lots of grand ideas and lofty goals, and on November 19, 2018 the team was sitting at 7-9-3, playing indifferent, indecisive hockey after early season routs by Winnipeg, Columbus, Minnesota and San Jose (and with routs by Winnipeg, Arizona, Vancouver, Calgary, Vancouver and Pittsburgh still to come) and no sign that it was going to get its shit together.

Remember: going into the 2018-19 season, Armstrong's grand plan had been the following:

Make the monster trade for O'Reilly​

Sign Bozak, Perron and Maroon​

Lots of talk in the offseason about winning a Cup​

Go in with the same head coach who'd struggled down the stretch in 2018​

Go in with the same starting goalie who'd struggled down the stretch in 2018 and increasingly blamed teammates for his own team-deflating mistakes in net​

​

Those last two items were critical flaws. It was two flaws immediately called out by everyone paying attention to the team, that made everyone question the idea that the Blues are serious Stanley Cup contenders, and yet Armstrong decided to plow ahead into the season as if everything else he'd done was going to paper those over.

Also lingering out there, by many accounts, was a division in the locker room. Armstrong had to know that existed, and yet he ignored it by assuming everything else he'd done was going to fix that division. That wasn't just guys still being independent contractors, who weren't just the mid-tier, lower-tier guys. The division in the locker room was alluded to by Jeremy Rutherford multiple times, and it was something Armstrong chose to ignore.

We know how 2018-19 started. It's why we have the "describe this season in GIFs" thread, among perhaps a few others that still live on. Perhaps the depth of that crash wasn't fully anticipated, but when the first 7 weeks of the season went that badly with all the known issues that went unaddressed, that all lay at the feet of the guy who created it. For all the trades Armstrong had allegedly won over the years, for all the alleged great contracts he'd signed, for everything he'd allegedly done that was fantastic, on November 19, 2018 the team was nowhere close to where Blues fans thought it would be. All that brilliant decision-making, all that super-genius vision, had created a 7-9-3 team that had no emotion that left him saying "the core group's equity built up is gone" - a core group that he created and invested in, that he was solely responsible for, a group he was pointing the finger at for the 2nd time in 656 days and which he'd really not touched.

And yet, it was Mike Yeo who was the only one who paid the price for it on the morning of November 19, 2018. And in the 7 weeks after, even as the team played indifferent hockey and showed no pride some nights, with the core group's equity "gone," Armstrong did nothing.

Everything else that happened after had nothing to do with any "master genius" decisions by Armstrong. The entire 2019 Cup run, while spectacular and thrilling and something we'll all remember, was one of the greatest flukes of all-time, right there with the Rams winning the Super Bowl after making headline moves to bring in Marshall Faulk and others, only to see intended starting QB Trent Green went down with a blown ACL and the team had to turn to a backup who'd thrown 11 passes in his NFL career and the expectation was now crap, get through the season without being embarrassed, let's get to next season and try to put it all together. That Cup run happened in spite of Armstrong's planning and ideas.

Berube was hired only to get through the rest of the season; Armstrong promised a comprehensive, top-to-bottom search for the next head coach: "there's going to be experienced head coaches on that list, there's going to be European head coaches on that list, there's going to be college head coaches on that list, major junior head - we're not going to, to minimize or limit the scope that we're going to look at." There was zero intent that morning to give Berube the position full-time.

Berube had to sort through all the stuff going on in the locker room and get guys to pull together. Armstrong left the same players in place, not making one move to ship any real or alleged problem guys out. [Unless, I suppose, you think Chad Johnson was the source of all the troubles in the locker room.]

Binnington was thrown in net because Johnson - signed on July 1 to be the backup instead of waiting to see if someone internally could win the backup spot - crapped the crease after a good 3 games that had a small but growing number of Blues fans wondering if he should be the starter instead of Allen, Allen was still being a head case, and Ville Husso was hurt. Binnington was the last option before going outside the organization. He wasn't given any regard by Armstrong, was waived at one point with the intention of sending him to the ECHL. The idea was to just get through the season, then figure goaltending out in the offseason, and if Binnington was crap, whatever - Armstrong would try to actually fix it in 5 or 6 months.

When Yeo was fired in 2018, Armstrong talked about holding players accountable. The core group's equity built up is gone. In the locker room speech on November 1, Armstrong told the players that he was not firing Berube and talked about holding players accountable, which would imply that again, the core group's equity was gone. As I type this at 9am on February 2, 2023, no one on the roster from opening night has been held accountable. Everyone is still here. If Armstrong felt the need to go into the locker room 8 games into the season and speak at the players for 40 minutes and deliver some this is on all of you message, you have to ask what he already knew was wrong that he felt the need to go do that.

I don't think one Cup parade that we all waited years for gives a lifetime free pass for poor decision-making. I also don't think you hand the keys to a rebuild to a guy who backed into a Cup and then engaged in decisions that reduced the roster to what it currently is, with no sign it's anywhere near being a Cup contender in the next few seasons. When he keeps admitting his mistakes but then says "someone else has to pay the price" it begs the simple question: when should Armstrong finally pay the price for his mistakes? At some point, Doug Armstrong needs to be the guy who pays the price for all his poor decisions, all his sins.

It should have been 1536 days ago. It should be now.

 

[Xerloris]

Berube was hired only to get through the rest of the season

Berube was the assistant coach, he was not hired because we fired Yeo. He was promoted.
As far as searching for a new head coach. Did you realy expect Armstrong to replace the coach that just got us a cup? That would be pretty asinine that alone would be reason for being fired.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

Hi. You all may remember me. It's been a while, I know. Been a while, mighty be a while. Who knows.

Specific to this thread, I'm pretty sure I'm the charter member of the "Fire Doug Armstrong" club. Glad to see it's picking up one or two people. Thought I would drop by for a moment and offer some thoughts.

The time to fire Doug Armstrong was November 19, 2018. You all remember that date, right? That's the day Armstrong's grand plan for a Cup lay in flames as he sat in front of the press and said he'd fired Mike Yeo, who "paid for the sins of myself and the entire organization."

That was 656 days after he'd sat in front of many of the same people, tears in his eyes, saying he was firing Ken Hitchcock, because "[Hitchcock]'s paying the price for all our failures, starting with mine. I'm the manager, I'm the, quote unquote, President of Hockey Operations ... it's my team." That was said more than once: Ken was paying the price for everything that Doug admitted was his fault. He said it all starts with him and it filters down; he'd let the players become independent contractors, whatever mess was there was on him, admitted multiple times that he was responsible, and Armstrong resolved to take care of that with the infamous words, "I'm not firing another head coach; core guys will be moved off this roster first."

But despite all of the "it's my fault" talk, with 6+ years as the GM and one conference final appearance (and 3 1st-round exits) to show for everything he inherited and all the moves he'd made over his tenure to improve the team and turn it into a Cup contender, with the team sitting 9th in the West after intentional decisions made in the offseason to "improve" the team coming off that conference finals appearance, ownership backed Armstrong and decided that it had to be Hitchcock who was the one walking out the door.

And yet, 656 days later, Armstrong was sitting in front of the same people, saying the same things. Yeo was "paying for the sins of the organization ... my sins." It was the 2nd time in 656 days that Armstrong spent time admitting his mistakes and casting blame on core players - players he decided to invest in - and yet someone else took the fall. Lots of talk, lots of planning, lots of grand ideas and lofty goals, and on November 19, 2018 the team was sitting at 7-9-3, playing indifferent, indecisive hockey after early season routs by Winnipeg, Columbus, Minnesota and San Jose (and with routs by Winnipeg, Arizona, Vancouver, Calgary, Vancouver and Pittsburgh still to come) and no sign that it was going to get its shit together.

Remember: going into the 2018-19 season, Armstrong's grand plan had been the following:

Make the monster trade for O'Reilly​

Sign Bozak, Perron and Maroon​

Lots of talk in the offseason about winning a Cup​

Go in with the same head coach who'd struggled down the stretch in 2018​

Go in with the same starting goalie who'd struggled down the stretch in 2018 and increasingly blamed teammates for his own team-deflating mistakes in net​

​

Those last two items were critical flaws. It was two flaws immediately called out by everyone paying attention to the team, that made everyone question the idea that the Blues are serious Stanley Cup contenders, and yet Armstrong decided to plow ahead into the season as if everything else he'd done was going to paper those over.

Also lingering out there, by many accounts, was a division in the locker room. Armstrong had to know that existed, and yet he ignored it by assuming everything else he'd done was going to fix that division. That wasn't just guys still being independent contractors, who weren't just the mid-tier, lower-tier guys. The division in the locker room was alluded to by Jeremy Rutherford multiple times, and it was something Armstrong chose to ignore.

We know how 2018-19 started. It's why we have the "describe this season in GIFs" thread, among perhaps a few others that still live on. Perhaps the depth of that crash wasn't fully anticipated, but when the first 7 weeks of the season went that badly with all the known issues that went unaddressed, that all lay at the feet of the guy who created it. For all the trades Armstrong had allegedly won over the years, for all the alleged great contracts he'd signed, for everything he'd allegedly done that was fantastic, on November 19, 2018 the team was nowhere close to where Blues fans thought it would be. All that brilliant decision-making, all that super-genius vision, had created a 7-9-3 team that had no emotion that left him saying "the core group's equity built up is gone" - a core group that he created and invested in, that he was solely responsible for, a group he was pointing the finger at for the 2nd time in 656 days and which he'd really not touched.

And yet, it was Mike Yeo who was the only one who paid the price for it on the morning of November 19, 2018. And in the 7 weeks after, even as the team played indifferent hockey and showed no pride some nights, with the core group's equity "gone," Armstrong did nothing.

Everything else that happened after had nothing to do with any "master genius" decisions by Armstrong. The entire 2019 Cup run, while spectacular and thrilling and something we'll all remember, was one of the greatest flukes of all-time, right there with the Rams winning the Super Bowl after making headline moves to bring in Marshall Faulk and others, only to see intended starting QB Trent Green went down with a blown ACL and the team had to turn to a backup who'd thrown 11 passes in his NFL career and the expectation was now crap, get through the season without being embarrassed, let's get to next season and try to put it all together. That Cup run happened in spite of Armstrong's planning and ideas.

Berube was hired only to get through the rest of the season; Armstrong promised a comprehensive, top-to-bottom search for the next head coach: "there's going to be experienced head coaches on that list, there's going to be European head coaches on that list, there's going to be college head coaches on that list, major junior head - we're not going to, to minimize or limit the scope that we're going to look at." There was zero intent that morning to give Berube the position full-time.

Berube had to sort through all the stuff going on in the locker room and get guys to pull together. Armstrong left the same players in place, not making one move to ship any real or alleged problem guys out. [Unless, I suppose, you think Chad Johnson was the source of all the troubles in the locker room.]

Binnington was thrown in net because Johnson - signed on July 1 to be the backup instead of waiting to see if someone internally could win the backup spot - crapped the crease after a good 3 games that had a small but growing number of Blues fans wondering if he should be the starter instead of Allen, Allen was still being a head case, and Ville Husso was hurt. Binnington was the last option before going outside the organization. He wasn't given any regard by Armstrong, was waived at one point with the intention of sending him to the ECHL. The idea was to just get through the season, then figure goaltending out in the offseason, and if Binnington was crap, whatever - Armstrong would try to actually fix it in 5 or 6 months.

When Yeo was fired in 2018, Armstrong talked about holding players accountable. The core group's equity built up is gone. In the locker room speech on November 1, Armstrong told the players that he was not firing Berube and talked about holding players accountable, which would imply that again, the core group's equity was gone. As I type this at 9am on February 2, 2023, no one on the roster from opening night has been held accountable. Everyone is still here. If Armstrong felt the need to go into the locker room 8 games into the season and speak at the players for 40 minutes and deliver some this is on all of you message, you have to ask what he already knew was wrong that he felt the need to go do that.

I don't think one Cup parade that we all waited years for gives a lifetime free pass for poor decision-making. I also don't think you hand the keys to a rebuild to a guy who backed into a Cup and then engaged in decisions that reduced the roster to what it currently is, with no sign it's anywhere near being a Cup contender in the next few seasons. When he keeps admitting his mistakes but then says "someone else has to pay the price" it begs the simple question: when should Armstrong finally pay the price for his mistakes? At some point, Doug Armstrong needs to be the guy who pays the price for all his poor decisions, all his sins.

It should have been 1536 days ago. It should be now.

Did you write this in 2018 and save the document for a rainy day? Must have been really frustrating when the roster Armstrong assembled was proven to be elite when they proceeded to win the Cup I don’t see how you can post with a straight face and retroactively criticize that particular roster’s construction.

Hiring Yeo? Looks bad.

Retaining Berube? Now we are getting into a trickier question. If you believe every coach has a shelf life, maybe a good coach like Berube still needs to be replaced. I have a hard time faulting management for trying to take another couple swings at it with the remaining core from the Cup run. Prematurely pulling the plug would be the greater sin in my eyes.

As for the players’ equity being gone, give it a month. Very few trades happen in the meat of the season. You need a partner to make a move. I think your argument won’t be very strong after the trade deadline.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Here's my position. There are definitely things that Army has done that I don't agree with, things that he should be criticized for, but what he's built from the day he came here has been great. The organization from top to bottom, left to right has always been in great shape, and that to me means, it will have the ability to navigate all the highs and lows we encounter.

For how low we typically draft, we have churned out some very good players. I'm sure we could do a deep dive on draft evaluations by organization, but we are certainly in the top portion, especially when factoring in draft position. This success has been sustained over multiple Directors of Scouting, so a lot of the credit has to be give to Army for this success. One of the areas that he gets criticized for in Dallas was how they were driven into the ground by loss of draft picks. In St. Louis, we absolutely have the ability to draft our way out of an issue. Analyzing 16 years of NHL draft data to see which teams have done it the best (and worst)

As far as trades go, he rarely has a bad one, and generally has really good targets. There were times we probably felt we took too long to find the right centers, but, he did find the right centers. The big miss was Miller, and a bunch of us thought Miller was a terrible fit for our system from the start.

There is a very, very shortlist of potential GMs that I'd be willing to replace Army with, and I don't think any of them would be available. If you are to replace Army as President and GM, you aren't going to be hiring from within and then just maintaining all the infrastructure that Army built, you be hiring an outsider. How much would that outsider change? How much of the philosophy would change? How many people would change? Can we really take that risk from going from a very well-run and stable organization that does pretty well in most areas as far as a front office is concerned? What happens if our drafting goes to shit?

Even the haters of Army can't say he's a bad GM. He might not be perfect, but there is a reason he's the 2nd longest tenured GM.

 

[BlueSeal]

Hi. You all may remember me. It's been a while, I know. Been a while, mighty be a while. Who knows.

Specific to this thread, I'm pretty sure I'm the charter member of the "Fire Doug Armstrong" club. Glad to see it's picking up one or two people. Thought I would drop by for a moment and offer some thoughts.

The time to fire Doug Armstrong was November 19, 2018. You all remember that date, right? That's the day Armstrong's grand plan for a Cup lay in flames as he sat in front of the press and said he'd fired Mike Yeo, who "paid for the sins of myself and the entire organization."

That was 656 days after he'd sat in front of many of the same people, tears in his eyes, saying he was firing Ken Hitchcock, because "[Hitchcock]'s paying the price for all our failures, starting with mine. I'm the manager, I'm the, quote unquote, President of Hockey Operations ... it's my team." That was said more than once: Ken was paying the price for everything that Doug admitted was his fault. He said it all starts with him and it filters down; he'd let the players become independent contractors, whatever mess was there was on him, admitted multiple times that he was responsible, and Armstrong resolved to take care of that with the infamous words, "I'm not firing another head coach; core guys will be moved off this roster first."

But despite all of the "it's my fault" talk, with 6+ years as the GM and one conference final appearance (and 3 1st-round exits) to show for everything he inherited and all the moves he'd made over his tenure to improve the team and turn it into a Cup contender, with the team sitting 9th in the West after intentional decisions made in the offseason to "improve" the team coming off that conference finals appearance, ownership backed Armstrong and decided that it had to be Hitchcock who was the one walking out the door.

And yet, 656 days later, Armstrong was sitting in front of the same people, saying the same things. Yeo was "paying for the sins of the organization ... my sins." It was the 2nd time in 656 days that Armstrong spent time admitting his mistakes and casting blame on core players - players he decided to invest in - and yet someone else took the fall. Lots of talk, lots of planning, lots of grand ideas and lofty goals, and on November 19, 2018 the team was sitting at 7-9-3, playing indifferent, indecisive hockey after early season routs by Winnipeg, Columbus, Minnesota and San Jose (and with routs by Winnipeg, Arizona, Vancouver, Calgary, Vancouver and Pittsburgh still to come) and no sign that it was going to get its shit together.

Remember: going into the 2018-19 season, Armstrong's grand plan had been the following:

Make the monster trade for O'Reilly​

Sign Bozak, Perron and Maroon​

Lots of talk in the offseason about winning a Cup​

Go in with the same head coach who'd struggled down the stretch in 2018​

Go in with the same starting goalie who'd struggled down the stretch in 2018 and increasingly blamed teammates for his own team-deflating mistakes in net​

​

Those last two items were critical flaws. It was two flaws immediately called out by everyone paying attention to the team, that made everyone question the idea that the Blues are serious Stanley Cup contenders, and yet Armstrong decided to plow ahead into the season as if everything else he'd done was going to paper those over.

Also lingering out there, by many accounts, was a division in the locker room. Armstrong had to know that existed, and yet he ignored it by assuming everything else he'd done was going to fix that division. That wasn't just guys still being independent contractors, who weren't just the mid-tier, lower-tier guys. The division in the locker room was alluded to by Jeremy Rutherford multiple times, and it was something Armstrong chose to ignore.

We know how 2018-19 started. It's why we have the "describe this season in GIFs" thread, among perhaps a few others that still live on. Perhaps the depth of that crash wasn't fully anticipated, but when the first 7 weeks of the season went that badly with all the known issues that went unaddressed, that all lay at the feet of the guy who created it. For all the trades Armstrong had allegedly won over the years, for all the alleged great contracts he'd signed, for everything he'd allegedly done that was fantastic, on November 19, 2018 the team was nowhere close to where Blues fans thought it would be. All that brilliant decision-making, all that super-genius vision, had created a 7-9-3 team that had no emotion that left him saying "the core group's equity built up is gone" - a core group that he created and invested in, that he was solely responsible for, a group he was pointing the finger at for the 2nd time in 656 days and which he'd really not touched.

And yet, it was Mike Yeo who was the only one who paid the price for it on the morning of November 19, 2018. And in the 7 weeks after, even as the team played indifferent hockey and showed no pride some nights, with the core group's equity "gone," Armstrong did nothing.

Everything else that happened after had nothing to do with any "master genius" decisions by Armstrong. The entire 2019 Cup run, while spectacular and thrilling and something we'll all remember, was one of the greatest flukes of all-time, right there with the Rams winning the Super Bowl after making headline moves to bring in Marshall Faulk and others, only to see intended starting QB Trent Green went down with a blown ACL and the team had to turn to a backup who'd thrown 11 passes in his NFL career and the expectation was now crap, get through the season without being embarrassed, let's get to next season and try to put it all together. That Cup run happened in spite of Armstrong's planning and ideas.

Berube was hired only to get through the rest of the season; Armstrong promised a comprehensive, top-to-bottom search for the next head coach: "there's going to be experienced head coaches on that list, there's going to be European head coaches on that list, there's going to be college head coaches on that list, major junior head - we're not going to, to minimize or limit the scope that we're going to look at." There was zero intent that morning to give Berube the position full-time.

Berube had to sort through all the stuff going on in the locker room and get guys to pull together. Armstrong left the same players in place, not making one move to ship any real or alleged problem guys out. [Unless, I suppose, you think Chad Johnson was the source of all the troubles in the locker room.]

Binnington was thrown in net because Johnson - signed on July 1 to be the backup instead of waiting to see if someone internally could win the backup spot - crapped the crease after a good 3 games that had a small but growing number of Blues fans wondering if he should be the starter instead of Allen, Allen was still being a head case, and Ville Husso was hurt. Binnington was the last option before going outside the organization. He wasn't given any regard by Armstrong, was waived at one point with the intention of sending him to the ECHL. The idea was to just get through the season, then figure goaltending out in the offseason, and if Binnington was crap, whatever - Armstrong would try to actually fix it in 5 or 6 months.

When Yeo was fired in 2018, Armstrong talked about holding players accountable. The core group's equity built up is gone. In the locker room speech on November 1, Armstrong told the players that he was not firing Berube and talked about holding players accountable, which would imply that again, the core group's equity was gone. As I type this at 9am on February 2, 2023, no one on the roster from opening night has been held accountable. Everyone is still here. If Armstrong felt the need to go into the locker room 8 games into the season and speak at the players for 40 minutes and deliver some this is on all of you message, you have to ask what he already knew was wrong that he felt the need to go do that.

I don't think one Cup parade that we all waited years for gives a lifetime free pass for poor decision-making. I also don't think you hand the keys to a rebuild to a guy who backed into a Cup and then engaged in decisions that reduced the roster to what it currently is, with no sign it's anywhere near being a Cup contender in the next few seasons. When he keeps admitting his mistakes but then says "someone else has to pay the price" it begs the simple question: when should Armstrong finally pay the price for his mistakes? At some point, Doug Armstrong needs to be the guy who pays the price for all his poor decisions, all his sins.

It should have been 1536 days ago. It should be now.

I talk trash about Army all the time but everytime I take a sip out of my ‘Blues replica Cup’ or look at my replica Blues Cup Ring I got to say Army did the best thing right: when the team made a comeback after December, he got the f-k out the way and let it roll. That I will always respect.

Anything at this point is his problem and his to solve. What comes from it will be handled one way or the other in time.

When the day comes when he’s fired, I won’t laugh, I won’t cry but I will raise my glass to the GM who unwittingly helped us bring a Cup home and was smart enough to not interfear. I will always love Army for that.

 

[bleedblue1223]

And it's weird to write something in a way that implies all the wrongs were on him and it was just dumb luck that he fell into the success.

 

[BlueSeal]

And it's weird to write something in a way that implies all the wrongs were on him and it was just dumb luck that he fell into the success.

While there was a TON that went beyond absolutely right and grew out of the team itself, like the Gloria tradition, to say Army was either totally clueless or totally stumbled into the success is disingenuous and ignoring the moves he had made, which were actually good ones.

Getting ROR was the ultimate trade theft in history regardless what Tage may become. For us that move put us over the top and made the 50+ years of suffering go away and I’d love for someone to fight me over that. If there’s a hill I die for Army on, it’s that one.