Should Burke be given one extra year to redeem himself?

[Razz]

There's only one thing less interesting than the Lockout, and that's the constant banter between Leaf fans about Burke. I hope for everyone's sake that the team can put together a playoff run soon so that this fan base can finally unite for a change.

 

[Frankie]

So you actually believe Steen and Antropov are better than Lupul and Kessel? I think just about everyone in the hockey world would laugh at that half assed logic .Because they were better in the standings back then? Antropov and Steen were here about 5 years ago. Yes, its already been 5 years since they put on a Leafs uniform , times changed

no, i don't believe steen and antropov are better than kessel and lupul.

the team was better 5 years ago. that's a fact. check the standings.

 

[DD03]

no, i don't believe steen and antropov are better than kessel and lupul.

the team was better 5 years ago. that's a fact. check the standings.

Or maybe the league was just worse? There's much more parity throughout the league.

 

[achtungbaby]

Or maybe the league was just worse? There's much more parity throughout the league.

Even using this logic, it means that the Leafs have remained stagnant since then, not improved.

 

[The Blue Devil]

There's only one thing less interesting than the Lockout, and that's the constant banter between Leaf fans about Burke. I hope for everyone's sake that the team can put together a playoff run soon so that this fan base can finally unite for a change.

Unless we win a cup there will alway be 2 sides clashing, even then there will probably be someone out there who wants to complain about something. It sucks, but that's just how the world is.

 

[charliolemieux]

Lets get this straight:

Left side of mouth: Burke is awesome.

Right side of mouth: it's all a fluke.

That's not what I said.

YOU guys can't even follow a statemnet you quote for god sakes.

The draft is a fluke. Or how else do you explain one year getting Lemieux and the next year getting Clark? OR how Phillips is #1 overall before LEcavalier and Thornton, and then Stefan goes #1? IT's a fluke year to year.

 

[RogerRoeper*]

If they add 2 more teams per conference, I see no reason why the Leafs can't make it in a 48 game season *if* a season is played.

 

[ULF_55]

Unless we win a cup there will alway be 2 sides clashing, even then there will probably be someone out there who wants to complain about something. It sucks, but that's just how the world is.

Cup? Cup?

If the team was in the playoffs people would be thrilled to be a top 16 team.

 

[achtungbaby]

Cup? Cup?

If the team was in the playoffs people would be thrilled to be a top 16 team.

It's hard to believe there's a whole generation of fans who can barely remember what a playoff game feels like.

 

[Frankie]

Or maybe the league was just worse? There's much more parity throughout the league.

you mean perhaps the overall quality of hockey has risen in the past 5 years? maybe that's true, thought i think any improvement in a 5 year period is insignificant. but if true, that would, or should, apply to players and prospects playing for the leafs as well.

point totals to make the playoffs haven't improved. the bar has not risen in that regard.

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

I won't play your childish game but I could. You're a murderer if you bury the survivors.

Silly .... You don't bury survivors.

Isn't that what I wrote???

 

[Mess]

It's hard to believe there's a whole generation of fans who can barely remember what a playoff game feels like.

You can't miss what you never had.

Helps explain that if the actual results don't matter anyone can be considered doing a good job, as there is no comparable to suggest otherwise.

If the results do matter the results speak for themselves.

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

If the Leafs played in Florida's division then they make the playoffs easily.

The Leafs were 8-11-1 against the Southeast Division last year, a .425 percentage, while their overall record was a .488 percentage.

Strangely enough, they had a 9-6-5 agaisnt the Atlantic division, a .575 percentage.

So please check your facts before making an assertion...

 

[Disgruntled Observer*]

That's not what I said.

YOU guys can't even follow a statemnet you quote for god sakes.

The draft is a fluke. Or how else do you explain one year getting Lemieux and the next year getting Clark? OR how Phillips is #1 overall before LEcavalier and Thornton, and then Stefan goes #1? IT's a fluke year to year.

So if Burke drafted a whole series of elite players (unlike the mediocre mess we currently have) would you just say "Burke didn't do a good job. He got lucky. The draft is a fluke!"?

For Burke supporters, if Burke drafts terribly "the draft is a fluke".
If he drafts well "Burke is a genius".

Unlike us leaf fan realists who allow the facts and results to speak for themselves.

 

[ULF_55]

It's hard to believe there's a whole generation of fans who can barely remember what a playoff game feels like.

I can only remember the 67 Cup, although I watched since Don Messers pre-empted the games and we joined the games in progress, but man was that Cup win a buzz. My entire being was buzzing with excitement, nothing in sports has come close, not even the Olympic Golds.

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

If you don't understand what you're talking about, I'd tone down the sarcasm a notch or two. After all, it is better to remain silent...

You're nastier than me...

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

How many of our good 'prospects' remain from the pre Burke days?

Kulemin, Grabovski, Riemer, Gunnarsson, Frattin, Holzer

That group includes 2/3rds of our 2nd line, a top 4 defender and our starting goalie at present, along with our 2 most NHL ready prospects (that were non regulars pre-lockout).. We also had Schenn that was turned into JVR as residual return on the current roster.

Only one of which would really still be considered a 'prospect' which was the point I was making. Thanks for playing.

Tell me you are not serious...

So your argument is that once a prospect becomes an established player, he cannot be counted as a credit for the GM who signed him?

Wow, tough crowd...

 

[EDDIE20*]

So if Burke drafted a whole series of elite players (unlike the mediocre mess we currently have) would you just say "Burke didn't do a good job. He got lucky. The draft is a fluke!"?

For Burke supporters, if Burke drafts terribly "the draft is a fluke".
If he drafts well "Burke is a genius".

Unlike us leaf fan realists who allow the facts and results to speak for themselves.

Is that what you call it?

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

I can't be the only one that sees a team nearly ready to take the next step can I? This team had a top 10 offense last year. (...)

In a run-and-gun system.

They scored 188 goals in 64 games under Wilson, an average of 2.94 per game.

In a more defensive system, under Carlyle, they scored 39 goals in 18 games, an average of 2.17 per game.

 

[Disgruntled Observer*]

I can't be the only one that sees a team nearly ready to take the next step can I? This team had a top 10 offense last year. It has a group of very talented wingers in Kessel Lupul JVR Macarthur Kuliemin and solid bottom 6 guys in brown and Frattin.

sure I'd like to see a guy like clowe brought in to add more size and grit but even if that doesn't happen our wing position is solid.

D wise I think we are also looking OK with Phaneuf, gardiner, liles, gunnar plus Reilley, finn, percy, blacker, and holzer in the pipeline. Again i'd like to see a regehr type brought in to shore up the d and to help cover for Reilley rookie mistakes wheen he gets here but I do believe the d has a bright future.

goal this is the MAJOR problem area but one I believe will be addressed with Luongo once the CBA is done which would take care of 90% of our issues.

Obiviously center is the other issue other then grabovoski who is a solid #2 center our center position needs work good news is we got connolly ,lombardi, macarthur, lupul, steckel all coming off the books and we can buyout komi before 13 14 to free up more space so the money will be there.

Guess my point is this team only needs a couple peices and unlike a lot of teams we aren't tight to the cap so it's doable.

The team Burke inherited had a top 10 offense as well. Does that mean that they were also "ready to take the next step"? That team also had higher rated prospects according to professional nhl scouts that make THN's rankings list.

The team Burke inherited had the same holes almost 5 years ago.
No elite center, no elite goaltending.

So after four years of bottom 10 finishes, the current team doesn't score more goals, doesn't prevent more goals, doesn't win more games, and has lower rated prospects than the team Burke inherited.

I'm flat out shocked that people are still trying to put a positive spin on Burke's abortion of a tenure with the leafs.

 

[4evaBlue]

In a run-and-gun system.

They scored 188 goals in 64 games under Wilson, an average of 2.94 per game.

In a more defensive system, under Carlyle, they scored 39 goals in 18 games, an average of 2.17 per game.

2 things:

• Carlyle didn't exactly have much time to implement a system.
• Carlyle's arrival pretty much coincided with us losing one of our PPG players.

Under Wilson: 199 goals against in 64 games, an average of 3.11 per game
Under Carlyle: 65 goals against in 18 games, an average of 3.61 per game

What we saw in the last 18 games was more a result of losing Lupul, and the performance of Greimer than any supposed defensive system. We'll be able to judge Carlyle's system better whenever the season starts up again.

 

[Frankie]

• Carlyle didn't exactly have much time to implement a system.

• 
  why wouldn't he have implemented his system right away?
  
  it shouldn't take professional players very long to learn a coach's system.

 

[4evaBlue]

why wouldn't he have implemented his system right away?

it shouldn't take professional players very long to learn a coach's system.

Speaking from experience, I take it?

 

[Disgruntled Observer*]

2 things:

• Carlyle didn't exactly have much time to implement a system.
• Carlyle's arrival pretty much coincided with us losing one of our PPG players.

Under Wilson: 199 goals against in 64 games, an average of 3.11 per game
Under Carlyle: 65 goals against in 18 games, an average of 3.61 per game

What we saw in the last 18 games was more a result of losing Lupul, and the performance of Greimer than any supposed defensive system. We'll be able to judge Carlyle's system better whenever the season starts up again.

The team Burke inherited was also top 10 in offense. So it hasn't improved even a little bit!!!!

No comment on that?

 

[The Apologist]

Tell me you are not serious...

So your argument is that once a prospect becomes an established player, he cannot be counted as a credit for the GM who signed him?

Wow, tough crowd...

Nope, my argument was very plain to see if you care to go back and read what I was responding to.

I know, it's tough to actually respond to something within the context it was written. Much easier to presume and twist and spout nonsense, ever thought of going into politics?