Short Term Pain - - Long Term Gain

[Donnie740]

Doubt anything happens. People are just upset.. understandable.. but you don't want to blow up a good team. Unfortunate Tavares was out since game 2, way she goes.

Easiest thing in sports to change and fix is the coach/GM.

Fortunately for the Leafs, that's their biggest problem.

 

[leafsgirl12]

You cannot track toughness.
You cannot track leadership.
You cannot track confidence.

Those were three things missing from this team.



Coincidentally, they're also three things a team absolutely MUST have to win in the playoffs.

Some players have leadership and toughness Rielly , Muzzin , Foligno. Rielly has acted like a leader to this team since the Phaneuf trade and Rielly did block shots / make saves using his skates mutiple times in the playoffs

 

[Donnie740]

Some players have leadership and toughness Rielly , Muzzin , Foligno. Rielly has acted like a leader to this team since the Phaneuf trade and Rielly did block shots / make saves using his skates mutiple times in the playoffs

Agree with the ones you mentioned, although Foligno wasn't there long enough to get control of things and really have much of an impact as a leader.

Sandin wasn't willing to pay the price and take a hit which led to catastrophic turnovers. That's what won two games for Montreal and ultimately, the series.

Marner's confidence was completely gone to the point where he wouldn't even try to shoot. Late in the 3rd tonight he was right in front and had Price down but just kept holding the puck until he eventually lost it.

 

[leafsgirl12]

Agree with the ones you mentioned, although Foligno wasn't there long enough to get control of things and really have much of an impact as a leader.

Sandin wasn't willing to pay the price and take a hit which led to catastrophic turnovers. That's what won two games for Montreal and ultimately, the series.

Marner's confidence was completely gone to the point where he wouldn't even try to shoot. Late in the 3rd tonight he was right in front and had Price down but just kept holding the puck until he eventually lost it.

True foligno likely mainly helped some leadership wise when Tavares got hurt and agree no doubt marner has confidence issues

 

[Donnie740]

True foligno likely mainly helped some leadership wise when Tavares got hurt and agree no doubt marner has confidence issues

Teams form their identity/culture at the beginning of the year. Who carries weight in the room, who can/can't be depended on.

Short of a major house cleaning, it's not something that can be changed at the end of the year.

Best leaders the Leafs have had in the past 25yrs have been Gilmour and Clark. When Gilmour came to Toronto in the middle of the year it was too late for him to change much with the identity or culture.

But when the next year started, everyone on the team knew who the alpha dog was.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

You cannot track toughness.
You cannot track leadership.
You cannot track confidence.

Those were three things missing from this team.

Coincidentally, they're also three things a team absolutely MUST have to win in the playoffs.

Not entirely true. Ton of metrics for toughness (and I am not talking about just hits, but rather more useful toughness like ability to win board battles and net front contests). Leafs also added a crap ton of toughness, and it didn't exactly get them anywhere (if anything, they did worse).

Leadership and confidence are not as easily trackable (you can track certain qualities and tendencies however). You are also talking about something that is extremely volatile and can change from situation to situation. The Leafs have had former Cup winners, former and current NHL captains, people with thousands of games of experience, etc. Did that matter? What do you suggest, adding more leaders? More Cup Winners? More people who know what it takes to win? You mean Bogosian, Muzzin, Thornton, Spezza, Foligno, Simmonds, Tavares...

Track it all you want... Or don't. There is very little you can do about how people will respond or react to tough situations. What you can do is control whether a player is good at hockey, and analytics can track that extremely well.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Sandin wasn't willing to pay the price and take a hit which led to catastrophic turnovers. That's what won two games for Montreal and ultimately, the series.

So he takes a hit and turns over the puck anyways. Not exactly a good thing to take a hit unless you are driving the net or on the forecheck. If you don't want to make those turnovers, process the play quicker and make simpler plays. Use your feet. Think ahead so you don't get in those positions in the first place.

Sandin made a lot of mistakes but none of them would have been solved by "taking a hit". Faster skating and better processing abilities would have solved his problems.

 

[Donnie740]

Not entirely true. Ton of metrics for toughness (and I am not talking about just hits, but rather more useful toughness like ability to win board battles and net front contests). Leafs also added a crap ton of toughness, and it didn't exactly get them anywhere (if anything, they did worse).

Leadership and confidence are not as easily trackable (you can track certain qualities and tendencies however). You are also talking about something that is extremely volatile and can change from situation to situation. The Leafs have had former Cup winners, former and current NHL captains, people with thousands of games of experience, etc. Did that matter? What do you suggest, adding more leaders? More Cup Winners? More people who know what it takes to win? You mean Bogosian, Muzzin, Thornton, Spezza, Foligno, Simmonds, Tavares...

Track it all you want... Or don't. There is very little you can do about how people will respond or react to tough situations. What you can do is control whether a player is good at hockey, and analytics can track that extremely well.

Joe Thornton has never won a big game in his life. If he was a playoff failure in his prime, how can you expect him to deliver in the playoffs as a 40yr old? Spezza, Foligno, Simmonds and Tavares have never won anything either.

They're useful pieces to be sure, but none of them are going to lead the way to a championship or they would have done it already in their prime years.

When your best players are also your toughest players, you know you've got a championship caliber team. Example, Marchand in Boston.

Two losses in this series were a direct result of a lack of toughness. Sandin wasn't willing or able to take a hit and he coughed up turnovers. Can't have a liability like that on a championship team.

Leadership is most definitely NOT volatile. Messier was the ultimate leader in Edmonton. He was the same way in NY and that's how the Rangers finally won a Cup.

When you've got a strong leader, everyone is more confident. "This is what we're going to do and this is how we're going to do it." You won't find a championship team in any sport that doesn't have strong leaders.

Good luck trying to quantify that. You can't measure it, but you can absolutely feel it.

 

[Donnie740]

So he takes a hit and turns over the puck anyways. Not exactly a good thing to take a hit unless you are driving the net or on the forecheck. If you don't want to make those turnovers, process the play quicker and make simpler plays. Use your feet. Think ahead so you don't get in those positions in the first place.

Sandin made a lot of mistakes but none of them would have been solved by "taking a hit". Faster skating and better processing abilities would have solved his problems.

Go back and watch the replays, my friend.

Sandin was flat footed along the boards when Perry came at him - - he was more concerned with watching out for Perry than he was about watching where the puck was going.

When he gave away the puck behind the net he was afraid of getting hit again by the oncoming forechecker and panicked instead of making the play.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Go back and watch the replays, my friend.

Sandin was flat footed along the boards when Perry came at him - - he was more concerned with watching out for Perry than he was about watching where the puck was going.

When he gave away the puck behind the net he was afraid of getting hit again by the oncoming forechecker and panicked instead of making the play.

Literally had nothing to do with anyone coming at him. Both times he was out of position and caught flat footed. That is an IQ issue, not a physicality issue.



Goal 1: Takes a hit, loses the puck, gives up a goal. Should have made a simpler play. IQ issue.

Goal 2: Gets stripped of the puck. Kotkaniemi was not even going for the body, and if he does, then Sandin loses the puck anyways. The issue is he takes forever to make a play even though he had plenty of time. IQ issue.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Joe Thornton has never won a big game in his life. If he was a playoff failure in his prime, how can you expect him to deliver in the playoffs as a 40yr old? Spezza, Foligno, Simmonds and Tavares have never won anything either.

They're useful pieces to be sure, but none of them are going to lead the way to a championship or they would have done it already in their prime years.

When your best players are also your toughest players, you know you've got a championship caliber team. Example, Marchand in Boston.

Two losses in this series were a direct result of a lack of toughness. Sandin wasn't willing or able to take a hit and he coughed up turnovers. Can't have a liability like that on a championship team.

Leadership is most definitely NOT volatile. Messier was the ultimate leader in Edmonton. He was the same way in NY and that's how the Rangers finally won a Cup.

When you've got a strong leader, everyone is more confident. "This is what we're going to do and this is how we're going to do it." You won't find a championship team in any sport that doesn't have strong leaders.

Good luck trying to quantify that. You can't measure it, but you can absolutely feel it.

You just blame everything on toughness even when toughness is not even remotely the issue on any of those plays you are talking about.

Leadership is extremely volatile. People react to different leaders and styles differently. There have been countless testimonials about how strong Spezza, Thornton, etc. were as leaders and how they held others accountable at all times, and how that drove team success. And ultimately, there are a ton of metrics used to determine leadership strengths, compatibility, etc. these days... So you can quantify leadership.

We need to diagnose the real problems, and a lot of problems in this series stemmed from being able to process basic plays, even when they were not under a lot of pressure. Leadership and toughness is not going to knock the stupid out of people.

 

[TheScandal89]

What would you say is more important - - winning in the regular season or winning in the playoffs?

Keefe’s got a 100% LOSING percentage in the playoffs.

Again, I didn't say i supported it, I just said I don't see them firing him because of that

 

[KuleminFan41]

He's got a 66% win percentage, I would be shocked to see him fired personally before the start of next season. Whether its the right move or not

He won the easiest division in hockey and ended up losing to the weakest playoff team, who isn't an actual playoff team under normal circumstances. Good luck trying to win with this coach when you're going up against Tampa, Florida and Boston 6 times a year. Keefe blew it as did the players

 

[TakeTheBody]

Right now it's just pain.

 

[Racer88]

No other GM keeps Keefe.

No other president keeps Dubas

 

[Racer88]

I think the Shanny and Dubas firing talk is pretty silly. At the end of the regular season everyone was confident this team could make the third round at least. That’s Dubas and Shanny’s job done. The coaching staff and the players deserve the majority of the blame. The blame that Dubas and Shanny do deserve is on the contracts to Matthews and Marner. Giving out that much money to unproven guys was a terrible idea.

Dubas’s biggest mistake is signing Tavares. He is grossly over payed, was not what the team needed and will absolutely cripple the team going forward

 

[Primary Assist]

No other president keeps Dubas

No other fanbase keeps this team

 

[Racer88]

More appropriate term is "plateaued"...

And this team is head and shoulders better than anything that was on the ice under Lou.

Yet The islanders with Lou at the helm keep rolling in the playoffs

 

[TheScandal89]

Keefe is gone. The stink of this is on him, and the players need to be held accountable. I would also start playing the youth. No more patch job shit. Get Lily, Sandin, Robertson, Amirov, and Brooks in. We have a ton of prospects coming as well, GET THE YOUNG players in.

You think those guys are gonna help us win, half of them won't do shit but be perimeter players like the rest of the core.

 

[Racer88]

Dubas and Shanny can’t make the players execute. They can build the team the best they can. If Matthews and Marner produce at their regular season pace, we win this series handedly. It’s not Dubas or Shanny’s fault our stars checked out.

The got those players for the team so ultimately it is their fault.
Using your logic no president, GM or coach would ever get fired because they weren’t on the ice

 

[TheScandal89]

He won the easiest division in hockey and ended up losing to the weakest playoff team, who isn't an actual playoff team under normal circumstances. Good luck trying to win with this coach when you're going up against Tampa, Florida and Boston 6 times a year. Keefe blew it as did the players

Again, I said I don't agree with it, but that I think they will keep him because of that.

 

[Leaf Fans]

No other president keeps Dubas

All of them would.

 

[Racer88]

Believe it or not, this Leafs team is actually very close to a championship.

Hardest thing to find is young top end talent - - the Leafs have that in abundance with Marner, Matthews, Nylander and Reilly. Trading one or two of them for other young top end talent that's a better fit is terrific option to have.

Biggest problem with this team is their playing style and terrible coaching. Which is the easiest thing to fix.

Where was that abundance of talent this series......Matthews and Marner were horrific. All the talent in the world is useless if it turtles when things get important

 

[Racer88]

All of them would.

They would keep a failure like him....... I doubt it

 

[Leaf Fans]

They would keep a failure like him....... I doubt it

You're coming around. You have come down from an absolute to a doubt.