Short Term Pain - - Long Term Gain

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I think the Shanny and Dubas firing talk is pretty silly. At the end of the regular season everyone was confident this team could make the third round at least. That’s Dubas and Shanny’s job done. The coaching staff and the players deserve the majority of the blame. The blame that Dubas and Shanny do deserve is on the contracts to Matthews and Marner. Giving out that much money to unproven guys was a terrible idea.

Those contracts were not great, but wait to see what guys will be making going forward (Mack, Makar, etc.) I think they signed them thinking the cap would keep going up, but nobody saw Covid coming to destroy everything cap related.

But in saying that Mitch is a 6-8 million dollar player tops if this is the player we get in the playoffs.
 
I think both Shanahan and Dubas have done good jobs.

Two things have to happen - trade Marner and fire Keefe.

I don’t think Dubas is willing to do either of those... in which case he has to go.

I don’t think Shanahan will force that issue... in which case he has to go too.

I think Shanny will boot them. He is not a stupid hockey man, I think he will have had enough.
 
I do think we see significant change this off-season, starting with Shanny and Dubas both getting booted.

But ... I’m not optimistic about the future regardless. I’m 35, I’ve been a Leafs fan since I was a young kid, and it’s mostly just been decades of non-stop disappointment. We haven’t won a playoff series in 17 years. We finally put together a super talented young core (Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Rielly, Kadri, etc.), and we’ve turned it into absolutely f***ing nothing. 5 straight first round exits, a garbage team culture with consistently zero compete in the playoffs, and you know for a fact Matthews, Marner and Nylander will all bolt as UFAs if we don’t trade them first.

I don’t see things getting better in the near future. I think the current team just implodes, and it’s probably another decade (or multiple decades) until we build a real contender. This organization is cursed.

Short term pain, long term gain? The last 17 years have already been long term pain, and I don’t expect the next 17 years to be much different. Long term pain, long term pain.
 
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He's got a 66% win percentage, I would be shocked to see him fired personally before the start of next season. Whether its the right move or not


What would you say is more important - - winning in the regular season or winning in the playoffs?

Keefe’s got a 100% LOSING percentage in the playoffs.
 
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Dubas and Shanny's job is "done" by what other people say about the team and not what they actually do?!

Am I actually understanding this correctly?
Dubas and Shanny can’t make the players execute. They can build the team the best they can. If Matthews and Marner produce at their regular season pace, we win this series handedly. It’s not Dubas or Shanny’s fault our stars checked out.
 
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Nah these horrific choke jobs aren't how you learn to win. In sports like boxing that are big on psychology losing is avoided at all costs to build confidence, 3-4 chokes like this and you're written off as a loser.

You learn to win by facing adversity and overcoming it, not repeatedly folding.
 
Dubas and Shanny can’t make the players execute. They can build the team the best they can. If Matthews and Marner produce at their regular season pace, we win this series handedly. It’s not Dubas or Shanny’s fault our stars checked out.

Why did they pay them like the could, then?

All they've done is wilt in the playoffs and it's only going to get worse once we go back to conference format.

This was their chance and they got bounced in the first round by the absolute worst team to qualify in the playoffs, Montreal.

So embarrassing.
 
Keefe is gone. The stink of this is on him, and the players need to be held accountable. I would also start playing the youth. No more patch job shit. Get Lily, Sandin, Robertson, Amirov, and Brooks in. We have a ton of prospects coming as well, GET THE YOUNG players in.


No.

The ridiculous decision to put in a rookie defenceman cost the Leafs two games in this series.

The refusal to give a proven veteran like Spezza who was playing great hockey all series when he got a chance is another reason the Leafs are out.
 
Losing to a less talented but physical and well coached team like Columbis is something that could be excused.

Blowing a 3-1 series lead to a WAY less talented, not very physical team with an interim coach is inexcusable.
 
Dubas and Shanny can’t make the players execute. They can build the team the best they can. If Matthews and Marner produce at their regular season pace, we win this series handedly. It’s not Dubas or Shanny’s fault our stars checked out.


Keefe made so many God-awful coaching mistakes that he absolutely has to be fired.

At this point, it should be obvious to everyone that Keefe is a very poor tactician as evidenced by the historically bad power play, and also a terrible leader as evidenced by the team coming out totally flat to start a pair of close-out games.

The GM who hired such a woefully inadequate coach also has to be fired because he cannot be trusted to hire another coach given the window of opportunity that's rapidly closing for this team.
 
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Actually, that is not true at all... And also not what the Leafs do.

I have a feeling people have a very warped perception of what analytics are...

BTW, most Cup winning teams (or successful teams in general) are among the league leaders in analytics... So if people think ignoring analytics is the answer, then prepared to enter into an abyss far worse than the one we current find ourselves in.

Correlation doesn't equal causation. There is a bit of a cargo cult mentality when it comes to hockey analytics.

Maintaining possession into the offensive zone results in more goals, great. That could just mean there's less defensive pressure on those entries and trying to force it won't magically generate goals.

It becomes a big problem when players/agents/coaches all become aware of these things and start playing for the analytics to justify their jobs and a bigger contract.

Maybe that is why Dubas is so high on Marner and gave him a blank check. Hockey isn't baseball, there is too much chaos that can't be tracked and an honest "eye test" remains a requirement.
 
Keefe has proven himself to be an absolutely terrible coach on all levels - - poor at strategizing, poor at in-game adjustments and poor at motivating. I honestly do not know how anyone could argue those facts.

My issue with Dubas is that he's the one who hired such an inept coach.
 
No.

The ridiculous decision to put in a rookie defenceman cost the Leafs two games in this series.

The refusal to give a proven veteran like Spezza who was playing great hockey all series when he got a chance is another reason the Leafs are out.

But what do we have to lose? We are not even close to the top league teams, we are not winning a cup, and these are younger, faster, and cheaper players.

Are we to keep bringing in the Simmonds and Thortons of the world? Maybe another league min 40 year old?

It's not like the status quo is working.
 
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A rookie gm hiring a rookie coach. I imagine Lou probably called up Dubas and the convo going something like this:

Lou: Kyle - you are very brave to hire a rookie coach.
Dubas: Thank you sir.
Lou: Brave, but stupid.
 
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Correlation doesn't equal causation. There is a bit of a cargo cult mentality when it comes to hockey analytics.

Maintaining possession into the offensive zone results in more goals, great. That could just mean there's less defensive pressure on those entries and trying to force it won't magically generate goals.

It becomes a big problem when players/agents/coaches all become aware of these things and start playing for the analytics to justify their jobs and a bigger contract.

Maybe that is why Dubas is so high on Marner and gave him a blank check. Hockey isn't baseball, there is too much chaos that can't be tracked and an honest "eye test" remains a requirement.

I think there is a few things that I need to clear up about analytics, because I do believe some "internet analysts" have created a false sense of what analytics actually are... Usually because they don't know jack about analytics.

1) Analytics are a lot more sophisticated than just tracking possession or anything else you find on the internet... You can track pretty much anything except for maybe Hockey IQ with analytics these days (but even that you can infer based on a set of trackable metrics), so that chaos is not an issue.

2) You will never see any true analytics person who only trusts analytics to make a decision. They use it to provide an unbiased indicator of performance and to see things that scouts can't easily see. Contrary to popular belief, Dubas doesn't just use fancy charts and spreadsheets to make hockey decisions.

3) Analytics are not a guarantee for success, which analytics people also know. You can build a team that has a 99% probability of winning a Cup based on your model. You run a simulation and you win 99/100 times. You lost 1/100 times. Then you run it for real, and you lose. That one time out of 100 happened. That is life and that is sports. For example:



1.4% is not 0%. It is extremely unlucky, but still possible. It mostly makes you wonder what you can do differently as a GM and coach to make things work out. (FTR, I don't really follow Dom's stuff but I know he gets a ton of flak from non-analytics people when his models don't work out; I have no idea how accurate or good they actually are, but for the sake of this exercise we will assume he knows how to make an accurate model).

Finally, Marner did not receive that contract because he was a good analytics player... He received it because he was an elite young player. He still is. If your eye-test did not tell you that, then it is broken. All I can tell you is that everyone uses analytics A LOT these days because it makes your eye-test a lot more clear.
 
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But what do we have to lose? We are not even close to the top league teams, we are not winning a cup, and these are younger, faster, and cheaper players.

Are we to keep bringing in the Simmonds and Thortons of the world? Maybe another league min 40 year old?

It's not like the status quo is working.


Believe it or not, this Leafs team is actually very close to a championship.

Hardest thing to find is young top end talent - - the Leafs have that in abundance with Marner, Matthews, Nylander and Reilly. Trading one or two of them for other young top end talent that's a better fit is terrific option to have.

Biggest problem with this team is their playing style and terrible coaching. Which is the easiest thing to fix.
 
I think the Shanny and Dubas firing talk is pretty silly. At the end of the regular season everyone was confident this team could make the third round at least. That’s Dubas and Shanny’s job done. The coaching staff and the players deserve the majority of the blame. The blame that Dubas and Shanny do deserve is on the contracts to Matthews and Marner. Giving out that much money to unproven guys was a terrible idea.
Every team in the league signs Matthews to that deal, the marner one Is bad and there’s no if ands or buts about it. Luckily it’s structured in such a way if he flamed out he’s movable.
 
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You can track pretty much anything except for maybe Hockey IQ with analytics these days (but even that you can infer based on a set of trackable metrics), so that chaos is not an issue.


You cannot track toughness.
You cannot track leadership.
You cannot track confidence.

Those were three things missing from this team.

Coincidentally, they're also three things a team absolutely MUST have to win in the playoffs.
 
Every team in the league signs Matthews to that deal, the marner one Is bad and there’s no if ands or buts about it. Luckily it’s structured in such a way if he framed out he’s movable.


That's why so many teams never get a sniff of winning.

Matthews' stats support his contract, but his performance when it counts - - in the playoffs - - does not.

To use an NBA analogy, every team in the league would sign James Harden and Michael Jordan to max contracts. Both put up huge stats to justify their deals but only one of them could perform in the playoffs.
 
Keefe made so many God-awful coaching mistakes that he absolutely has to be fired.

At this point, it should be obvious to everyone that Keefe is a very poor tactician as evidenced by the historically bad power play, and also a terrible leader as evidenced by the team coming out totally flat to start a pair of close-out games.

The GM who hired such a woefully inadequate coach also has to be fired because he cannot be trusted to hire another coach given the window of opportunity that's rapidly closing for this team.
Totally agree Keefe is such a god awful coach
 
I would sincerely entertain a shakeup


I'm talking Matthews (my favourite player) out the door, and Marner

The idea of Eichel for Matthews swap, even it out with picks. I think Eichel has a lot to offer still if he ever gets on a team that isnt cellar-tier, and we have a decent bit of depth and team for him.
 
Doubt anything happens. People are just upset.. understandable.. but you don't want to blow up a good team. Unfortunate Tavares was out since game 2, way she goes.
 
I would sincerely entertain a shakeup


I'm talking Matthews (my favourite player) out the door, and Marner

The idea of Eichel for Matthews swap, even it out with picks. I think Eichel has a lot to offer still if he ever gets on a team that isnt cellar-tier, and we have a decent bit of depth and team for him.


Eichel's no improvement over Matthews. In fact, he's probably more of a prima donna. Did you see the gong show in Buffalo this year?
 

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