Short Term Pain - - Long Term Gain

[Leafs87]

For the type of player Shanahan was, I’m surprised he’s allowing Dubas to ice such a soft team.
When he came here, he traded Kessel for being too soft and poisoning the room. He literally recreated a better version of the same team we had before…. Soft af and crumble under pressure.

Also Babcock>>>Keefe.

 

[NightTrain1]

Let’s not get into that again.

To be very honest with you, the whole end of last season and pandemic stuff, i was very tuned out. So this is a legit question not something snide.

 

[Gabriel426]

To be very honest with you, the whole end of last season and pandemic stuff, i was very tuned out. So this is a legit question not something snide.

To me, I don’t consider them making it into the playoffs but some here like to argue the playins is the playoffs bc officially the NHL are counting playin points as playoff points.
Regardless, the core have not win any series.

 

[NightTrain1]

To me, I don’t consider them making it into the playoffs but some here like to argue the playins is the playoffs bc officially the NHL are counting playin points as playoff points.
Regardless, the core have not win any series.

Well that makes sense in your initial response.

I guess I dont agree that it does count as a playoff considering the round after qualifiers was literally called Round 1. So yeah, this makes things even worse now in my eyes.

 

[ITM]

So we should just let someone keep failing at their job so we don't embarrass them? That's complete and total nonsense. No wonder we fail if we're more interested in not hurting people's feelings for failing than solving the problem. Participation trophy logic at its finest.

If my Assistant is f***ing up all my appointments.... making me look stupid and costing me money...I FIRE THEM INSTANTLY. Why would I wait to address a problem?

There are a number of coaches and upper management that continue to recycle in the NHL. And how it happens is anyone's guess. Not to say under-performing professionals don't lose their jobs, of course they do. But Malholtra sticking on this club raises questions.

And where do I endorse Malholtra's performance exactly?

I describe what I believe to be the reality of most benches and certainly Toronto's. Malholtra is but one example of how it must be permissible to continue in a role without intervention despite failing. Either, the override came down and it's Keefe's powerplay sputtering. OR, it's Malholtra's. If it's Malholtra's then it's understood what he's done and certainly what he's trying to do. And no one is telling him otherwise. OR, Malholtra's filling a job title and shows up for games and practices for appearance' sake and it's someone else's product.

And I agree with respect to participation trophy logic where an equal outcome is insured before honest competition can yield true competency worth compensating.

And it may be out of everyone's hands including Shanahan's.

 

[Donnie740]

Also Babcock>>>Keefe.

A broomstick would be >>>> Keefe.

At least the broomstick wouldn’t make a ridiculous challenge call that had no hope of succeeding and put the Leafs short handed.

 

[leafsgirl12]

DOOM GLOOM CRY Stay the course. Trading Marner would be the most idiotic decision in the history of the team.

Not when things have come out about him not willing to change position on pp to make team better that is being a selfish player

 

[saffronleaf]

There will be no long term gain. Being a Leafs fan is short term pain for long term pain. Pathetic and putrid franchise. The laughingstock of not just the hockey world, but the sports world. About as enjoyable as a rock that gets lodged in your shoe.

 

[Donnie740]

There will be no long term gain. Being a Leafs fan is short term pain for long term pain. Pathetic and putrid franchise. The laughingstock of not just the hockey world, but the sports world. About as enjoyable as a rock that gets lodged in your shoe.

This is an opportunity for the Leafs to get rid of these two inexperienced and unqualified little kids and replace them with a couple of men who understand the game.

Once upon a time the Leafs had a comparable GM/coach combination with Gord Stellick and Dougie Carpenter. They were hopeless and way out of their depth much like Dubas and Keefe.

Two years later they brought in a pair of men with experience and a strong understanding of the game - - Cliff Fletcher and Pat Burns - - which led to the greatest success the team has had over the past half century.

 

[ANDI P IS CUTE]

how is manny not fired yet?

 

[7even]

"Short Term Pain - - Long Term Gain" ..... Lol

You could've made this post once a year, every year, for the past 15 seasons, and you'd be just as wrong each and every time.

 

[dangomon]

I always appreciate how people talk about hating the current regime as if previous regimes did anything better? We're not a laughing stock because we lost a few game 7s, we're a laughing stock because our streak goes back to !2004!.

As for the title...there is literally nothing short-term about the pain surrounding this team.

 

[Iapyi]

1967

1967 is largely because management didn't have the fortitude to deal with the lack of fortitude from the fan base.

I'm hoping we don't go through another one of those cycles.

I don't know if I'm right [anyone who says I'm not proves I'm right] but at this point I would choose to stay the course.

We have a core of really good solid players for the first time in decades, I'm hesitant to mess with that.

 

[Donnie740]

how is manny not fired yet?

Same reason Keefe hasn’t been fired yet.

Both were terrible hockey player. Both are terrible coaches.

 

[egd27]

You believe that behind an NHL bench, a head coach is going to openly and repeatedly embarrass his support staff? Refraining from doing so and allowing your special teams coaches to do their job is actually Coaching 101. It's Management 101 to remove said weak link in the off season.

Keefe takes him aside privately and makes suggestions on what he can try in order to improve his results and continues to work with him until the results come.

He doesn't have to openly embarrass him, and he uses it as a development opportunity. THAT is Coaching/Management 101.

Now either Keefe doesn't know he should do that, or he just didn't have any better ideas. Either way, not a good look for an NHL Head Coach.

 

[robertmac43]

Changing the core for the sake of change is a bad move IMO. The best play is to stay put and make the necessary small changes to get better.

Hockey is the toughest sport to win in, don't do anything irrational in an effort to speed things up.

 

[uncleben]

A broomstick would be >>>> Keefe.

At least the broomstick wouldn’t make a ridiculous challenge call that had no hope of succeeding and put the Leafs short handed.

For any other faults, I can at least forgive that decision (in isolation of the challenge itself - obviously we got burned on the ensuing penalty). GI calls these playoffs have been ridiculous.

The GI rule doesn't actually say that there needs to be any contact made, or that the player actively impedes the goalie. The player's actions or presence inside the crease simply needs to disrupt the goalie's ability to make a save or reset.

These playoffs alone, we saw a goal overturned because a player was simply standing in front of the goalie (aka screening the goalie) - a much weaker, but successful, challenge than Toffoli standing in the crease in between Campbell and the save.

The application of the rule has been inconsistent and loosey goosey (like so much of the refing), and it is the coaching team's prerogative to take the risk and test the waters.
If the goal had been called back (and there was a chance) he would've been praised. If Montreal didn't score on the next PP/we won anyway, it would've effectively been forgotten about.

Frankly, Bergevin making Ducharme make his challenge earlier in the series was a worse call.

 

[ITM]

Keefe takes him aside privately and makes suggestions on what he can try in order to improve his results and continues to work with him until the results come.

He doesn't have to openly embarrass him, and he uses it as a development opportunity. THAT is Coaching/Management 101.

Now either Keefe doesn't know he should do that, or he just didn't have any better ideas. Either way, not a good look for an NHL Head Coach.

Understood. And I think that's happened. Obviously dialogue is something known to Keefe, et al. But the numbers don't lie. It may simply be that Malholtra doesn't implement said suggestions and (is allowed) carries on his program to futility.

And despite the belief of others that Keefe is just going to take over and embarrass him, I don't see that as a viable professional standard in today's day and age. And how I wish it weren't so.

Ever work with a colleague who represents their experience as trumping their actual work product and never seems to get the memo that their work product is screaming incompetence? Their confidence restricting an honest account of their work?

We'll see in the moves made (or not) this summer where perceived error is sourced.

 

[myleafs]

Believe it or not, this Leafs team is actually very close to a championship.

Hardest thing to find is young top end talent - - the Leafs have that in abundance with Marner, Matthews, Nylander and Reilly. Trading one or two of them for other young top end talent that's a better fit is terrific option to have.

Biggest problem with this team is their playing style and terrible coaching. Which is the easiest thing to fix.

Not
I agree
But they won't

 

[egd27]

SOOooooooooo.... did the Leafs make the playoffs last year or not? Because I havent really been paying attention to what ive been saying lately. Indicating 5 straight first round exits but that isnt true is it? I know the entire situation was all over the place with the round robin and qualifiers, but a qualifier does not equal playoffs, this is right?

They have lost 5 straight series in the post season. Not debatable, use that.

 

[beleaf101]

Just for some context the Raptors fired the coach of the year. It shows the 2 organizations are miles apart.

 

[Donnie740]

And despite the belief of others that Keefe is just going to take over and embarrass him, I don't see that as a viable professional standard in today's day and age.

You’re living in a dream world, my friend.

I can assure you coaches step in to take over for struggling assistants ALL THE TIME. In every sport.

This isn’t the sensitive office environment you’re familiar with, it’s professional sports.

But don’t just take my word on it, here’s a few examples...

Claude Julien takes over Canadiens' power play at practice | Montreal Gazette


Boucher: Senators' assistant coaches to switch special teams duties


Sean McDermott explains decision to take over play-calling


Bill O’Brien is taking over play-calling in an attempt to look smart

 

[ITM]

You’re living in a dream world, my friend.

I can assure you coaches step in to take over for struggling assistants ALL THE TIME. In every sport.

This isn’t the sensitive office environment you’re familiar with, it’s professional sports.

But don’t just take my word on it, here’s a few examples...

Claude Julien takes over Canadiens' power play at practice | Montreal Gazette


Boucher: Senators' assistant coaches to switch special teams duties


Sean McDermott explains decision to take over play-calling


Bill O’Brien is taking over play-calling in an attempt to look smart

I hardly live in a dream world. More importantly, I want our PP to succeed and would welcome an old school heavy-handed approach if something as broken as our PP with our firepower wasn't running roughshod over the division. I also never denied the existence of the hierarchy in sports throughout. We had a professional manager in our family that was kinda known for being a bit of a hard character. The point of the 101/101 comment was to point out the obvious in administrative management.

I'm inferring from (horrific) results that a "sensitive office environment" might be what's going on behind Toronto's bench. And I don't blame Keefe per se. I think it's cultural. And I'm not so sure it's in Shanahan's hands to rough up. This is after all, Brendan Shanahan we're talking about. The man knows tough like few other in the game's history. So something isn't adding up. He won under Bowman. Not exactly a player's coach. Wonderful guy in person though.

We know the PP is abysmal. We know it's either Malholtra, or it's Keefe or something else affecting the relay of information. Because something in theory is making sense to Dubas and Shanahan and it's not translating through their endorsed staff. And it's "structure" that Keefe has preached over and over as something the team needs to consistently revert to when troubles with consistency arises. Well, arise it did. Someone can fact check me on this, but didn't we give up more short-handed goals than we scored for a stretch?

So whose structure is Keefe referring to? To me it sounds like it's Malholtra's. Especially when reading pieces on the club's struggles. Reporters usually find dirt where dirt's to be found. And repeatedly the Leafs powerplay is described as run by Malholtra. So Malholtra runs the power-play? Isn't that the reasonable inference? IF it is, why is Keefe insisting on deferring to that structure that accommodates greater chances for the team killing the penalty? Perhaps I've thought about it too much, but with all the information at hand, there's a peculiar optics exercise going on in Toronto in which Malholtra isn't being held accountable.

Or, it's the players on the power play, just like it's the players at full strength in the playoffs. Maybe they're living in a dream world.

 

[Donnie740]

I hardly live in a dream world. More importantly, I want our PP to succeed and would welcome an old school heavy-handed approach if something as broken as our PP with our firepower wasn't running roughshod over the division. I also never denied the existence of the hierarchy in sports throughout. We had a professional manager in our family that was kinda known for being a bit of a hard character. The point of the 101/101 comment was to point out the obvious in administrative management.

I'm inferring from (horrific) results that a "sensitive office environment" might be what's going on behind Toronto's bench. And I don't blame Keefe per se. I think it's cultural. And I'm not so sure it's in Shanahan's hands to rough up. This is after all, Brendan Shanahan we're talking about. The man knows tough like few other in the game's history. So something isn't adding up. He won under Bowman. Not exactly a player's coach. Wonderful guy in person though.

We know the PP is abysmal. We know it's either Malholtra, or it's Keefe or something else affecting the relay of information. Because something in theory is making sense to Dubas and Shanahan and it's not translating through their endorsed staff. And it's "structure" that Keefe has preached over and over as something the team needs to consistently revert to when troubles with consistency arises. Well, arise it did. Someone can fact check me on this, but didn't we give up more short-handed goals than we scored for a stretch?

So whose structure is Keefe referring to? To me it sounds like it's Malholtra's. Especially when reading pieces on the club's struggles. Reporters usually find dirt where dirt's to be found. And repeatedly the Leafs powerplay is described as run by Malholtra. So Malholtra runs the power-play? Isn't that the reasonable inference? IF it is, why is Keefe insisting on deferring to that structure that accommodates greater chances for the team killing the penalty? Perhaps I've thought about it too much, but with all the information at hand, there's a peculiar optics exercise going on in Toronto in which Malholtra isn't being held accountable.

Or, it's the players on the power play, just like it's the players at full strength in the playoffs. Maybe they're living in a dream world.

I
“Structure” is a buzzword similar to “the process” and “normalizing irregularities” that people revert to when they’re in deep and don’t know WTF to do.

The more frequently the buzzwords are repeated, the more it confirms the person has no clue how to resolve the situation. And when everyone just nods in agreement because they don’t know what else to do, it never gets resolved.

The reason I place the PP failure as being 100% on the coach is because he was either UNWILLING or UNABLE to fix the problem.

As the leader he bears responsibility for stepping in to help the struggling assistant coach get it under control.

In the event that he actually did step in to run the PP, the fact that it remained so abysmal tells me the coach has no idea how to improve it. Either way, the coach failed.

Blaming the players for not executing on the PP reminds me of the old reliable management excuse of “operator error” to explain away production quality failures.

You have no idea how many times I hear that. Operator error? Bullshit! Why was the operator in a position to make the error?

It’s similar to Rasmus Sandin blowing two games in this series with brutal turnovers. I’m the first to acknowledge Sandin isn’t capable of playing playoff level hockey at this point but I don’t blame him for the costly mistakes - - I blame the coach 100%.

Who put an ill-equipped rookie defenceman in a position to make such catastrophic mistakes? Same guy who wouldn’t or couldn’t resolve the inept PP.

The coach, that’s who.