Proposal: Shattenkirk or Fowler to NJD

[Edmonton East]

If he didn't then St. Louis would have already traded him. They aren't desperate to move him and have shown that they won't move pieces for lesser value just because they may lose them as free agents. When a team is in "win now" mode, losing guys to free agency is more likely than trading them for lesser value just to prevent getting nothing for them down the road.

Oh yea, I agree 100% as a Devil fan who watched this happen over and over and over for 15 years. I'm just coming from the angle of what his fair value actually would be, which is why I thought saying a potentially high first plus a decent young player wasn't close was silly.

But I got ya

 

[ManofSteel55]

Oh yea, I agree 100% as a Devil fan who watched this happen over and over and over for 15 years. I'm just coming from the angle of what his fair value actually would be, which is why I thought saying a potentially high first plus a decent young player wasn't close was silly.

But I got ya

I think that price could get Shattenkirk at the deadline, so there would need to be some pretty sweet incentive for St. Louis to trade him today and give up a 50 point defenseman for 3/4 of the season next year. They might need that defensive depth to help make up for the pieces that they lost this summer.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Honestly curious: since you Blues' fans seem to think sign and trades frequently happen with sizable contracts in a UFA year, can you give me some examples?

Naturally I 'll reply with the many more UFAs who played out the year and....went to UFA, but I am curious about the sign and trade examples.

The thing is, a Army will just keep him for a playoff run if value isn't met, and he's fine with that.

Without a contract, Lucic trade is a comp. With an extension, which teams are being allowed to discuss prior to a deal being finalized, his worth goes up quite a bit. If Jersey wants him, they need to offer something in the ballpark of what Lucic received. That's more than 1st+Q.

 

[Edmonton East]

The thing is, a Army will just keep him for a playoff run if value isn't met, and he's fine with that.

Without a contract, Lucic trade is a comp. With an extension, which teams are being allowed to discuss prior to a deal being finalized, his worth goes up quite a bit. If Jersey wants him, they need to offer something in the ballpark of what Lucic received. That's more than 1st+Q.

Yes, but at this point can't we say that was an awful trade for LA? Just like I can point to the Kovalchuk trade and say his value is less and you can say, "yes, but at this point can't we say that was an awful trade for ATL?".

As I posted in this thread though, Shattenkirk either gets moved before the season or he doesn't at all.

 

[mytduxfan*]

Yes, now name me the teams that can afford the 6 year, 6+ average contract he is going to want and get. Trade and sign won't be quite that easy.

Quite a few actually. EDM and BOS would be in the mix for a start. Then if you consider that money would be going back as part of the return (i.e. the contracts of the players going the other way), then you're looking at teams like DET, NYR, CLB. There would certainly be more teams then just NJ interested in a player like Shatty and capable signing him.

We'll see about that. Either way, you guys are all assuming Shattenkirk would sign an extension anyway when he could just wait the year out and force team's into a bidding war. And if his agent has any degree of competence, he would realize Jersey would be one of those teams in the bidding war in desperate need of a 40+ point dman. The Devils could give him 7 per and not blink. Not saying they will.

So, what is preventing Shattenkirk from just waiting until UFA so he can get the most $$$$? Especially considering this will be his last contract in his prime.

You don't really understand how a trade and sign works do you? If Shatty and his new team cannot come to terms, then Shatty doesn't get moved. All STL have to do is ask Shatty:

STL: "Hey, we've got a deal with [insert team] in the works... would you be interested in moving there?"
Shatty: "Sure".
STL: "The deal is contingent on you signing an extension though. Would you talk to the team about doing so".
Shatty: "Why not?"
Trading team: "Hi Shatty... so what are you hoping to earn next year?"
Shatty: "I want security, so how about 7yrs at 7M?"
Trading team: "That's a little high for us. Happy about the term, but the money has to come down. How 7 x 6.5M?"
Shatty: "Sounds great!"

Trade completes the next day and, hours after being moved, Shatty signs with his new team. Slightly more complicated then a conventional deal, but not that difficult to pull off.

If a team is willing to meet the extension asking price that his agent is asking for, then there is no downside to locking it in now. What if he tears his ACL on opening night, he'd lose quite a bit of money.

He's not signing at a discount on an extension, teams have the motivation to get him locked in before he hits the open market.

Exactly. Shatty still has control in the situation. If he doesn't like the deal being presented, he can still walk away and test the market if he wants. There is no downside to Shatty at least exploring the opportunity.

OK your right Cams for free
And what does trade history have to do with a single damn thing
History that Ana/NJ have never traded-Wrong
If we were talking NYR/NJD I would concede trade history and even now I'm not sure if Shero thought it would help he wouldn't do it

Again, is it likely, probs not. But Ana is looking at guys like Huddler who will want $4-5M per, might get him for a season or two but that's 2x Cams (retained). Worst case if Ana was unhappy expose him at LV exp draft. So your getting your guy earlier than the TDL

Wtf are you talking about?

Honestly curious: since you Blues' fans seem to think sign and trades frequently happen with sizable contracts in a UFA year, can you give me some examples?

Naturally I 'll reply with the many more UFAs who played out the year and....went to UFA, but I am curious about the sign and trade examples.

Andersen was traded this year and immediately signed a 5 x 5M contract = 25M!

We also did a trade and sign with Bieksa, but that was only for 2 x 4M.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Yes, but at this point can't we say that was an awful trade for LA? Just like I can point to the Kovalchuk trade and say his value is less and you can say, "yes, but at this point can't we say that was an awful trade for ATL?".

As I posted in this thread though, Shattenkirk either gets moved before the season or he doesn't at all.

Difference between between trading for a rental and trading for a player that signs an extension immediately.

Rental prices are what they are.

 

[Smitty426]

Wtf are you talking about?

It was my responses were to these two posts:
Cammalleri is 34 years old. You aren't going to get Shattenkirk or Fowler for him even if NJ retained 100% of his salary.

Your wrong
It might not happen but still wrong

That's most likely not wrong, at all. Trade history doesn't exactly lend you any reason to believe that a deal of Cammalleri for Shattenkirk/Fowler is remotely realistic.

 

[Edmonton East]

Andersen was traded this year and immediately signed a 5 x 5M contract = 25M!

We also did a trade and sign with Bieksa, but that was only for 2 x 4M.

I think you missed my point.

Blues' fans are assessing Shattenkirk's value as if he will be doing a sign and trade with whatever team wants him, when in reality this rarely happens with players of his caliber.

My point: Why would he agree to sign with any team when he has been playing on a discount contract, will be a UFA in 11 months, and could create a bidding war on the open market for his services on the last contract he will sign in his prime?

Yea, because he won't in all likelihood. And your examples are awful. Andersen's RIGHTS were traded, so that comparison doesn't work lol. Bieksa was hardly a high profile player in his prime and it was a short term deal.

 

[ghdi]

Quenneville + 2017 1st is the highest I'd go for Shattenkirk. Q is coming off a tremendous season, and projects to have a ceiling of a Henrique clone. I'm a huge fan, but McLeod immediately replaces his spot in the prospect depth chart.

If the Blues would rather do a one-for-one with Shattenkirk, we don't have anything to offer.

Nah. Not offering Quenneville + 1st for Shattenkirk. I don't offer the 1st until the trade deadline with an add-in of a more middle range prospect of ours if they want to trade him then. I don't think they trade him at the deadline though since they're going to need him if they're playing well. If they're a bubble team which I wouldnt bet on, then we go in on it then. Right now the price will just be too high. We have options to acquire Shattenkirk relatively soon without giving up Quenneville or any of our better received prospects and even without the first.

Shattenkirk = 2016's Yandle. They're going to ask for a crazy price unless they're basically out at the deadline, which is unlikely given their talent that still remains there. Keep in mind that one of the reasons Taylor Hall is a Devil today is b/c Shattenkirk turned down an Edmonton extension. The price is just stupid now, which is understandable as he's important to St. Louis' upcoming season.

Wait until the negotiating window opens next offseason and get his rights for a 3rd. Sign him before July 1, 2017.

 

[Ruutu Tootoo]

For now I would rather sign Wisnewski or Russell (depending on what type of defenseman Shero wants) to a 2 year deal and then if the Devils are in playoff contention by the TDL, I would trade the first and the + (whatever that may be) to the Blues for Shattenkirk. Though Shattenkirk's value from his play may be there, his current contract lessens his trade value.

If I'm Shero though I'm totally in on trying to get Shattenkirk. The Defense would look pretty deep after the TDL: (in no particular order or pairing)

Greene-Severson
Shattenkirk-Wisnewski/Russell
Lovejoy-Moore
Merrill

 

[mytduxfan*]

Wtf are you talking about?

It was my responses were to these two posts:
Cammalleri is 34 years old. You aren't going to get Shattenkirk or Fowler for him even if NJ retained 100% of his salary.

Your wrong
It might not happen but still wrong

That's most likely not wrong, at all. Trade history doesn't exactly lend you any reason to believe that a deal of Cammalleri for Shattenkirk/Fowler is remotely realistic.

Those guys are right. You don't trade top pairing D-men in their mid-to-late 20s for 34 year old wingers well passed their prime.

I think you missed my point.

Blues' fans are assessing Shattenkirk's value as if he will be doing a sign and trade with whatever team wants him, when in reality this rarely happens with players of his caliber.

So? If Shatty is willing to do a trade and sign, they're probably right. The only negative to Shatty is the fact he's a UFA in 1 year. If you remove that negative by making any deal a trade and sign, then they have every right to expect a maximum return.

You're the one who seems to think that Shatty has to be moved.

My point: Why would he agree to sign with any team when he has been playing on a discount contract, will be a UFA in 11 months, and could create a bidding war on the open market for his services on the last contract he will sign in his prime?

Because they give him what he wants? You make it sound like a "bidding war" would increase his price to something ridiculous. There is a limit to what Shattenkirk can realistically earn. I'm sure Shatty is smart enough to know that. If a team offers him a contract extension that is within his ballpark value, I see no reason as to why he wouldn't do a trade and sign deal. It's pretty clear the main thing players look for is security. So if a team offers Shatty 7yr x 6.5M, why would he turn it down? What? Because he might get 6.75M or even 7M if he goes to market? He might not. He might get 7M, but not 7 years. Going to FA can backfire too you know? Matt Beleskey was supposed to get some multi-year 5M+ per year contract after his career year with ANA in 2014-15. He went to FA trying to get that and he ended up with less then what ANA offered him. It's not always the best idea to go to market.

Back to the point though, surely this ridiculous notion that all players want is to start a bidding and earn as much money as possible was thrown out once Stamkos re-signed with TB. Wasn't he supposed to get 12M per? Signed for 8.5M.

Yea, because he won't in all likelihood. And your examples are awful. Andersen's RIGHTS were traded, so that comparison doesn't work lol. Bieksa was hardly a high profile player in his prime and it was a short term deal.

What's the difference? TOR have said the deal was contingent on coming to terms with Andersen prior to pulling the trigger. Why does it matter that Andersen was an RFA. He could have been a UFA and the process would have been exactly the same.

 

[TK 421]

Nah. Not offering Quenneville + 1st for Shattenkirk. I don't offer the 1st until the trade deadline with an add-in of a more middle range prospect of ours if they want to trade him then. I don't think they trade him at the deadline though since they're going to need him if they're playing well. If they're a bubble team which I wouldnt bet on, then we go in on it then. Right now the price will just be too high. We have options to acquire Shattenkirk relatively soon without giving up Quenneville or any of our better received prospects and even without the first.

Shattenkirk = 2016's Yandle. They're going to ask for a crazy price unless they're basically out at the deadline, which is unlikely given their talent that still remains there. Keep in mind that one of the reasons Taylor Hall is a Devil today is b/c Shattenkirk turned down an Edmonton extension. The price is just stupid now, which is understandable as he's important to St. Louis' upcoming season.

Wait until the negotiating window opens next offseason and get his rights for a 3rd. Sign him before July 1, 2017.

I think quite a few ppl are operating under a flawed premise that Armstrong won't deal Shattenkirk at the trade deadline if the Blues are in a PO spot. He nearly moved him to Boston last year for Eriksson but evidently didn't like the term Eriksson was looking for. So there is a willingness to move Shattenkirk even if the Blues are in a PO spot. With this being Shatty's last year under contract Armstrong will certainly move him at the TDL for the best futures package he can get rather than let him walk.

Once you factor in the possibility that the Blues aren't Cup contenders this coming season after losing Backes, Elliott and Brouwer it makes it easier to understand why they wouldn't keep Shattenkirk to take another run at a Cup. Why take that gamble if A. you're not re signing him anyway and B. you don't have the stacked roster you had the previous season? If Armstrong can't find a hockey trade to his liking before the TDL he'll take the best futures package he can find.

 

[Stephen Gionta]

Cammalleri is not well past his prime.

He had 38 points in 42 games last season. That's .9 points per game which is a 74 point pace. Statistically, this past year was his 3rd best season in his NHL career.
In 2009 Cammalleri had 82 points in 81 games and in 2007 he had 80 points in 81 games.

 

[dracom]

Cammalleri is not well past his prime.

He had 38 points in 42 games last season. That's .9 points per game which is a 74 point pace. Statistically, this past year was his 3rd best season in his NHL career.
In 2009 Cammalleri had 82 points in 81 games and in 2007 he had 80 points in 81 games.

He's 34 years old, he's past his prime.

 

[Force951]

Cammalleri is not well past his prime.

He had 38 points in 42 games last season. That's .9 points per game which is a 74 point pace. Statistically, this past year was his 3rd best season in his NHL career.
In 2009 Cammalleri had 82 points in 81 games and in 2007 he had 80 points in 81 games.

Older players get injured more often, so saying he only played 42 games last year doesn't strengthen your argument.

 

[Kurt Cobain]

Id rather be patient and offer shattenkirk a huge deal next off season. We'll still have plenty of cap space and he'll be top dog on the defense. He'll qb all the power plays and be able to play 23 plus mins a night. Plus he'll be close to home and won't have to travel like he does out west. I expect us to be at the top of the list next offseason when it comes to where he'll sign. We got the goalie, top 5 in the league, and we got an up and coming team with a good amount of young talent. We're an up and coming team even if hfboards doesn't want to recognize us as one. We got offensive talent already in the league with; Hall, Henrique, Palmieri, Cammaller, Zajac., and potenitally Bennett and DSP. As well as decent talent in the minors with Zacha, McCleod, Quennville, Blandisi, Boucher and Wood who should all be nhl players in the end.

 

[MissouriMook]

Quenneville + 2017 1st is the highest I'd go for Shattenkirk. Q is coming off a tremendous season, and projects to have a ceiling of a Henrique clone. I'm a huge fan, but McLeod immediately replaces his spot in the prospect depth chart.

If the Blues would rather do a one-for-one with Shattenkirk, we don't have anything to offer.

As a Blues fan I would hope that we could get more for Shattenkirk with an extension in place, but if that 1st isn't lottery protected it might be the best futures package we can get our hands on because NJD is one of the few teams I think would be a slam dunk to be able to get him to agree to a contract extension as a condition of the deal.

 

[Stephen Gionta]

He's 34 years old, he's past his prime.

Was Tim Thomas past his prime when he was like 37 and lead the Bs to a cup.

A general consensus for a players prime is like 24-29, but its different for every player. Cammalleri is a tremendous hockey player.

 

[Stephen Gionta]

Id rather be patient and offer shattenkirk a huge deal next off season. We'll still have plenty of cap space and he'll be top dog on the defense. He'll qb all the power plays and be able to play 23 plus mins a night. Plus he'll be close to home and won't have to travel like he does out west. I expect us to be at the top of the list next offseason when it comes to where he'll sign. We got the goalie, top 5 in the league, and we got an up and coming team with a good amount of young talent. We're an up and coming team even if hfboards doesn't want to recognize us as one. We got offensive talent already in the league with; Hall, Henrique, Palmieri, Cammaller, Zajac., and potenitally Bennett and DSP. As well as decent talent in the minors with Zacha, McCleod, Quennville, Blandisi, Boucher and Wood who should all be nhl players in the end.

Agreed. NJD looking great for the future. Just need to upgrade the defense. Signing Shattenkirk would do just that.

 

[Kurt Cobain]

Was Tim Thomas past his prime when he was like 37 and lead the Bs to a cup.

A general consensus for a players prime is like 24-29, but its different for every player. Cammalleri is a tremendous hockey player.

Cam can still play at a high level in this league. It's all about staying healthy and if he has stayed healthy last season and kept up his pace he could of put ip 65 plus points.

 

[WhatTheDuck]

Was Tim Thomas past his prime when he was like 37 and lead the Bs to a cup.

A general consensus for a players prime is like 24-29, but its different for every player. Cammalleri is a tremendous hockey player.

Cammalleri still is a good player but he's not going to get the Devils a top pairing Dman who is a full decade younger.

 

[Sojourn]

OK your right Cams for free
And what does trade history have to do with a single damn thing
History that Ana/NJ have never traded-Wrong
If we were talking NYR/NJD I would concede trade history and even now I'm not sure if Shero thought it would help he wouldn't do it

Again, is it likely, probs not. But Ana is looking at guys like Huddler who will want $4-5M per, might get him for a season or two but that's 2x Cams (retained). Worst case if Ana was unhappy expose him at LV exp draft. So your getting your guy earlier than the TDL

Anaheim wouldn't be moving Fowler for Hudler.

That's an important difference.

The fact you are suggesting that if Anaheim were unhappy, they could expose him to the LV exp draft just makes it worse. I mean, really, man. They would have just traded one of their best defensemen for him, and you think it's all better if they expose him to the expansion draft? If Murray did that, he'd likely be signing his own demise with the club. That's such a terrible waste of a team asset.

 

[Smitty426]

Anaheim wouldn't be moving Fowler for Hudler.
That's an important difference.
The fact you are suggesting that if Anaheim were unhappy, they could expose him to the LV exp draft just makes it worse. I mean, really, man. They would have just traded one of their best defensemen for him, and you think it's all better if they expose him to the expansion draft? If Murray did that, he'd likely be signing his own demise with the club. That's such a terrible waste of a team asset.

Obviously! First off Hudler is a UFA so there is no deal of Fowler/Hudler. The point was they need a #1 left winger. If they are not going to trade for this winger they need to look at UFAs

Hudler is one of tha last ones left with anywhere near what they would probably be looking at. The followup part to that is Hudler is not signed because he probably wants A. Some term (more than1) which every term probably does not want to do B. A huge salary to go with the term.

Like to see your source on that, because as far as I know we haven't shown interest in him at all. Especially not at that price.

The only source I have is looking through posts/sites (and see above) of what teams needs are. And if you don't think you need a left wing look at where you were, where you were June 30 are after FA:

LAST YEARS WINGERS BEFORE TRADES
Carl Hagelin GONE
Chris Stewart GONE
David Perron GONE
Jamie McGinn GONE
Mike Santorelli FA
Shawn Horcoff FA

CURRENTLY
Corey Perry RW
Ryan Getzlaf C
Ryan Kesler C
Jakob Silfverberg RW
Andrew Cogliano LW
Ryan Garbutt LW
Nate Thompson C
Rickard Rakell C

ADDITIONS IN FA
Mason Raymond LW- 5 points last yr
Chris Wagner RW- 6 points last year
Jared Boll RW- 3 points last yr
Not exactly addressing the need for a #1 LW

Sure I get it you don't want to give a great D away for an old guy like Cams, but its gonna cost something then if not in FA right? And based on age of the core guys at top of the lineup its win now

 

[liquiduck]

Obviously! First off Hudler is a UFA so there is no deal of Fowler/Hudler. The point was they need a #1 left winger. If they are not going to trade for this winger they need to look at UFAs

Hudler is one of tha last ones left with anywhere near what they would probably be looking at. The followup part to that is Hudler is not signed because he probably wants A. Some term (more than1) which every term probably does not want to do B. A huge salary to go with the term.



The only source I have is looking through posts/sites (and see above) of what teams needs are. And if you don't think you need a left wing look at where you were, where you were June 30 are after FA:

LAST YEARS WINGERS BEFORE TRADES
Carl Hagelin GONE
Chris Stewart GONE
David Perron GONE
Jamie McGinn GONE
Mike Santorelli FA
Shawn Horcoff FA

CURRENTLY
Corey Perry RW
Ryan Getzlaf C
Ryan Kesler C
Jakob Silfverberg RW
Andrew Cogliano LW
Ryan Garbutt LW
Nate Thompson C
Rickard Rakell C

ADDITIONS IN FA
Mason Raymond LW- 5 points last yr
Chris Wagner RW- 6 points last year
Jared Boll RW- 3 points last yr
Not exactly addressing the need for a #1 LW

Sure I get it you don't want to give a great D away for an old guy like Cams, but its gonna cost something then if not in FA right? And based on age of the core guys at top of the lineup its win now

If nothing fits the team need then nothing will be done. Cammalleri is a non starter as a main piece in that deal.
Anaheim is not really a team that makes moves that fit with the "win now" moniker. When BM makes moves, he takes into consideration the ramifications of both the future and present equally.

A LW isnt the only solution to our problem. A good young center would also fix the issue, because then we could just plug Rakell on the wing. If Anaheim is dealing with NJ, it would have to be Zacha in the conversation.

 

[crowi]

You won't get Fowler for Cammalleri... come on...
At least be reasonable.