Speculation: Sharks Roster Discussion Part 2
- Thread starter rangerssharks414
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rangerssharks414
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I was laughing when I saw that years ago. They then proceeded to give him a contract extension.
OrrNumber4
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- Jul 25, 2002
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I was laughing when I saw that years ago. They then proceeded to give him a contract extension.
These mythopoeic posts should have been culled from the start.
The Sharks did not acquire two 2nds for Stuart. They got a 2nd and a 6th-round-pick.
rangerssharks414
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FeedingFrenzy
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- Oct 26, 2009
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I'd move Dillon and wingels to Fla for Jagr, and a 2nd +
Free up some cap space, have Jagr for the PO.
Free up some cap space, have Jagr for the PO.
rangerssharks414
Registered User
I really don't believe in playoff numbers being different than regular season numbers, but there are people that do. Jagr hasn't scored a goal in close to 40 playoff games.
Jagr is a lot like Heatley was. Good regular season goal scorer but more of a decoy that uses their playmaking more come playoff time. It's useful as long as you don't put him with other playmakers.
Timos Death Stare
Seek and Destroy
If we get anyone before the deadline I want them to have speed and be a scorer. We have enough grinders and slowpokes on the team, especially in our top players. We don't need more. That DQ's IMHO players like Jagr and Vanek.
Juxtaposer
Outro: Divina Comedia
That's actually kind of an interesting idea for Lee... unrealistic as hell but I like it.
Couture <-> Lee + NYI 1st
NYI 1st + Goldobin + Mueller + Dillon + Wingels <-> Duchene
Isles need to prove to Tavares that they're serious about trying to contend, otherwise he'll walk. Couture does that.
Early-mid 1st, Goldobin, and Mueller is a solid package of young assets for Colorado's rebuild (add O'Regan or any other non-Meier/Labanc prospect if needed). Dillon gives them an actual NHL defenseman (he's probably their third best defenseman right now) who has Cup Finals experience and is still relatively young. Wingels is another legit NHLer, and lord knows Colorado needs more of those. This deal would only be semi-plausible if Colorado struck out trying to get Hanifin/Sergachev/whichever young defenseman, obviously, but I don't think it's that bad.
Marleau-Thornton-Pavelski
Lee-Duchene-Labanc
Donskoi-Hertl-Meier
Ward-Tierney-Boedker
Shelter the **** out of that second line and give Hertl harder minutes. Trading Dillon and Mueller cuts down on our depth on D, but it also means there are less NHLers that Heed and Ryan need to pass... that forward group is incredible; when the top-line moves on, you still have a top-6 ready to go.
Anyway, yeah. Unrealistic as hell but a good though, Nolan.
AgentCooper
Registered User
I've been staring at these lines for a couple of minutes and I don't know what I think. Is this that much better than what we have now? Is Duchene that much better than Couture? Is it worth a top prospect and two decent defensemen to push Boedker down to the fourth line?
Juxtaposer
Outro: Divina Comedia
Duchene is better than Couture. But let's not ignore Lee as well. He's tremendous. Arguably a 1st liner. I think almost as highly of Lee as I do Hertl.
Fistfullofbeer
Moderator
Only on offense and even then not by much. Duchene has a career 0.76 vs 0.74 PPG for Couture. And Couture has actually been better since the start of the 2014-15 season. And Couture is better defensively than Duchene as well.
Duchene is certainly the more 'sexy' player but to me it appears like Couture always gets thrown under the bus when we start talking about Centers.
Juxtaposer
Outro: Divina Comedia
Couture has had a LOT more help. Not fair at all to compare their career PPGs, especially when Duchene entered the league as an 18 year old vs Couture at 20-21.
Fistfullofbeer
Moderator
I just don't buy that argument. Couture has not played with Pavs or Thornton outside of the PP. And he also gets the tougher matchups.
Skilled offensive players will generally find a way to get points. Couture has scored at 0.73 PPG since the start of 2014-2015 compared to 0.71 of Duchene. If I had to choose one of those 2 centers, I would take Couture every day of the week. That is not a slight on Duchene. That is exactly how high I think of Couture.
Juxtaposer
Outro: Divina Comedia
Couture has not been great defensively over the past few years and he hasn't gotten tough matchups since 2014-2015, when he blew chunks in hard minutes. Thornton has had the tough matchups the past two years and the team has been better for it.
My issue with Logan is that his career year was 2013-2014 and he hasn't been anywhere near as good as then. His reputation as a shutdown defensive center comes from that year but is no longer true.
Couture may not have played with Thornton or Pavelski, but he has played with Marleau, Clowe in his career year, Heatley, Ward, etc. who were/are all better players than Duchene has ever played with for an extended stretch in his career. Duchene doesn't play much at all with Landeskog and Mackinnon, and the Avs have literally zero other decent forwards outside of a rookie Rantanen. Duchene has played on some truly awful teams where he was the only forward the opposition has had to worry about. Couture gets sheltered to a degree because other teams match up their top shutdown players against Thornton and Pavelski.
And while he hasn't played significant even strength time with Thornton/Pavelski, being a fixture on a PP unit with the likes of Thornton, Pavelski, Boyle, and Burns has done a lot for Couture's production over his career.
Couture is a great player, but I just don't see an argument that he's better than Duchene.
EDIT: Over the past three years, Duchene has 2.21 5v5 P/60 and Couture has 1.74 5v5 P/60. That's a pretty huge difference.
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hockeyball
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- Nov 10, 2007
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Until I see Duchene put up 30 points in the playoffs I'm sticking with Couture as the better player. I like Duchene and all, but I really doubt many GM's would take him over Couture at the same price.
Nolan11
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- Mar 5, 2013
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Thanks Jux. I agree it's about as likely as a three way trade.
IMO Duchene is a slightly younger version of couture. If we could swap the two I would , and I love couture. But even if avs did that, they won't, it would not be a big enough improvement to truly boost our chances. Adding Duchene to our core without losing anyone would be awesome but it would destroy our cap while giving us three 1C in post jumbo years. That is a luxury we can't afford.
We don't have the top end assets we need to get Duchene. But if we could trade Couture for a solid player like Anders Lee and a top five pick we flip with quantity for Duchene, we'd have a much better chance.
Juxtaposer
Outro: Divina Comedia
I get where you're coming from, but using Couture's fantastic single postseason as justification for taking him over another player after I wrote all that is kinda lame.
Jamie Benn has never scored 30 points in a postseason, but I'd take him over Couture. There's quite a few players I could make that statement about.
"Couture will never put up 30 points in the playoffs again" is a statement I feel extremely confident making.
Timos Death Stare
Seek and Destroy
Couture is the devil we know, who has proven he can succeed in our system. With the way JT is playing, I'd try everything in my power to grab Duchene without giving up Couture. We need to start looking towards the future.
Regarding Couture vs Duchene, I just don't think the risk is worth it. Couture knows our system, plays well in it, and ultimately even if Duchene is slightly better I don't think the risk is worth it. Not to mention the + we'd have to include to get Duchene.
Those are horrible trade proposals.
Couture and Goldobin alone are better than Duchene and Lee.
An NYI 1st (which is more than likely gonna be top 10), plus our unquestionably 2nd best prospect, plus Mueller, and 2 roster players for Duchene is franchise suicide.
If Colorado is selling there's no way he gets a better return than what Toronto got for Kessel.
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Limekiller
Registered User
In any case, according to Avs fans on the trade forum, three different media sources, including their old beat writer (Dater), along with McKenzie and Friedman have all said that the single key thing that the Avs will be judging any trade offer on is the D-man or D prospect that is the centerpiece of the trade. This isn't a situation where we'd be able to do quantity for quality, or give them quality at other positions. Why would they want even a Meier or Goldobin as the most valuable piece for Duchene or Landeskog? Even if Meier/Goldobin/etc. have a potential higher ceiling (and I'm not saying they do), why would Colorado take a couple magic beans over proven performers?
Simply put, we don't have what they want. Look at who they were demanding from Boston for Landeskog (Zboril + DeBrusk + Morrow + 2017 1st). We don't have ANYONE in the system that matches what they want. Mueller sure as hell isn't that, 1st round pick or not. Maybe, just maybe, Roy would have been that if he hadn't been injured, but as it is, there's no chance. Much as we may love us some Joakim Ryan, he has slightly less trade value than the Hanifins, Sergachevs, etc. in the world...
So sure, it'd be nice to get Duchene or Landeskog, especially Duchene. But unless we're planning on offering Vlasic or something equally silly, it's not happening.
Simply put, we don't have what they want. Look at who they were demanding from Boston for Landeskog (Zboril + DeBrusk + Morrow + 2017 1st). We don't have ANYONE in the system that matches what they want. Mueller sure as hell isn't that, 1st round pick or not. Maybe, just maybe, Roy would have been that if he hadn't been injured, but as it is, there's no chance. Much as we may love us some Joakim Ryan, he has slightly less trade value than the Hanifins, Sergachevs, etc. in the world...
So sure, it'd be nice to get Duchene or Landeskog, especially Duchene. But unless we're planning on offering Vlasic or something equally silly, it's not happening.
Fistfullofbeer
Moderator
To me Couture vs Duchene is a great example of grass is greener on the other side. Stylistically unsimilar players but both are good offensively and defensively. Ages are similar as well. I would rather keep Couture because he has contributed both with and without good linemates. If it was a 1-on-1 trade, I may consider it. But honestly, even then I would most likely keep Couture.
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Okay, so let's talk about our bottom-6.
Obviously Meier - Tierney - Ward had a good game yesterday, what's the concensus there? Do we feel that line is sustainable or simply lucky? If they can recreate their success, that would reduce our need for a scoring LW and allow Hertl to slot back in with the Joe's.
Likewise, how do we feel about the 4th line of Haley - Wingels - Karlsson. It has been solid of late. Producing good zone time, being heavy on pucks and doing a good job keeping players to the outside. What is the general take on using that skeleton into the play-offs? Maybe slotting in Donskoi with Couture and switching out Haley/Wingels for Boedker.
If we build under the assumption of Meier - Tierney - Ward working, I think something like this might be fairly successful:
Hertl - Jumbo - Pavs
Marleau - Couture - Labanc
Meier - Tierney - Ward
Karlsson - Boedker - Donskoi
Obviously Meier - Tierney - Ward had a good game yesterday, what's the concensus there? Do we feel that line is sustainable or simply lucky? If they can recreate their success, that would reduce our need for a scoring LW and allow Hertl to slot back in with the Joe's.
Likewise, how do we feel about the 4th line of Haley - Wingels - Karlsson. It has been solid of late. Producing good zone time, being heavy on pucks and doing a good job keeping players to the outside. What is the general take on using that skeleton into the play-offs? Maybe slotting in Donskoi with Couture and switching out Haley/Wingels for Boedker.
If we build under the assumption of Meier - Tierney - Ward working, I think something like this might be fairly successful:
Hertl - Jumbo - Pavs
Marleau - Couture - Labanc
Meier - Tierney - Ward
Karlsson - Boedker - Donskoi
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