Confirmed with Link: Shanahan Presser (Video)

[DarkKnight]

I think some of this seemingly originates from an overall generational divide we have in society today.

Dubas has seemingly appealed to, and is aligned philosophically with a younger generation and their thinking.

The generational divide, seems to cross many aspects of our society, sports, business and politics to name a few.

It seems to the younger generational thinkers, process alone, is sometimes viewed as being seemingly just as important, or even more important, than actual final outcomes.

Then however, when favourable outcomes are not achieved employing their progressive processes, the younger generation seemingly think the longstanding rules already in place, should simply be altered in such a way, and to such an extent, that the changes allow them to be successful without them having to change their preferred processes.

Case in point, many of us older fans recognize and have always recognized, that the playoffs are officiated completely differently versus the regular season. So therefore, having an offence first team built around a small group of four elite stars was always going to be a difficult structure to win it all with.

Why?

In a salary cap world, there simply wouldn’t be enough salary left to round out a team with other meaningful players.

Lou would philosophically align with that traditional thinking I would suggest. He has a team first, individual second, managerial style and approach to the game. For Lou, the sum of the parts outweigh the worth of the individual. You play for the logo on the front of the jersey and not the name on the back of it and you win together as a team.

To me, individual accolades in life are great, but winning as a team to me is even better, as you have others to share the success with you.

Dubas obviously thought differently versus Lou and was confident that his “progressive approach” of an offence first model, could and would work, and I believe that is why Dubas desperately clung to his theory, trying year after failed year to with it all.

For Dubas true success represents winning, but doing so using his younger, “progressive” approach and proving the old guard wrong.

I believe that is why Dubas was so seemingly reluctant to move off his theories and change.

After this failed year, in what represents year five, what we saw was many of the Dubas supporters crying foul, that the longstanding tradition of the playoffs being officiated differently, is now suddenly unfair and is the actual root source of their collective failure. Not of course the flawed strategy their GM of choice put in place.

It’s not too different than what we see in a lot of our society today.

Life is too hard, or others have it better than us, so we want the rules changed in such a way and to an extent , that we’re just as successful as those more successful than us,—but oh, by the way—we aren’t prepared to make the requisite sacrifices required that those others did.

Well said.

 

[daveleaf]

I honestly find it kind of odd that the President of hockey operations of a multi billion dollar corporation comes out to a press conference and spills the entire story of private behind-the-doors negotiations between management personnel.............


Did Dubas know that his boss would come out to a public presentation and re-hash their private interactions to a bunch of media vultures like that? Talk about deceit!!

What is a future GM going to think about this? That every time Shanahan and I discuss a contract, he's going to turn around and air out the whole thing to the media scum at a press conference if I decide to not sign the deal?


something stinks there, the whole press conference isn't at face value because professionals like that don't do things like this


they can say whatever they want at a press conference but the reality is that none of us have any idea of what's really going on behind these multi-billion dollar corporations' closed doors

There's more to it. I get the feeling Dubas was talking to others in private and Shanny got wind. When Shanny got the contract offer back with changed terms he felt he was getting bent over. This is not done yet.

 

[CaptainCrunch17]

I understand Dubas has his flaws. The more you pull back the curtain though I see Shanahan as a Grim Reaper. Patting your back with one hand prepping that sickle to behead you with the other. It will be interesting to see who The Grim Reaper hires. If it's a retread our already troubled franchise is in deep donkey dong.

I think you’re leaving the ownership group out of your assumptions.

If you think Shanahan makes any major decisions of consequence without first running it by Bell, Rogers and Tannenbaum for approval, you’re sadly mistaken.

I highly doubt the Leafs ownership group were very impressed when one of their employees, Dubas, publicly questioned his own commitment to the team and to continuing in his current job role, to then, a fews days later, do a complete turnabout and ask for more power, autonomy and a significant raise.

It was kind of ridiculous really.

To publicly state on a Monday, I’m mentally struggling in my current role and may choose not to continue and then on the subsequent Thursday, ask for more money, more power and additional responsibility and offer to commit for an additional five years.

In the business world, going public like that alone, would likely break your employment agreement and be justifiable cause for termination.

It’s certainly not a good way to get yourself a contract renewal that includes more money and autonomy.

 

[Apex Predator]

Shanahan and Dubas both have been watching succession with everything that’s gone down this week.

 

[binop7]

At the end of the day, Shannys actions were driven by internal organizational dynamics/politics. He and Dubas on an interpersonal level had a severe falling out and changes got made.

This wasn't driven by hockey operations, results, views on the core ect.

There will probably be a few more internal reverberations - coaching staff may go (though Shanny may opt to keep them in place, we don't know) - the other AGMs may go. And then Shanny will have to work fast to try and salvage the offset

I disagree with that it is far too simplistic to state that. Once Shanahan snapped out of the mindset of Dubas as GM next year it gave him the opportunity to rethink everything. That's when it very much became about Hockey Ops.

 

[Menzinger]

I disagree with that it is far too simplistic to state that. Once Shanahan snapped out of the mindset of Dubas as GM next year it gave him the opportunity to rethink everything. That's when it very much became about Hockey Ops.

He said nothing to suggest that was the case on Friday.

I don't think he's completely changed his mind on this stuff after just 5 days beyond wishful thinking

 

[boxbox]

Well said.

x2

 

[boxbox]

well now it all makes more sense....if true what is being reported if I were a Leaf fan I would accept nothing less then Shanahan stepping down

 

[Apex Predator]

x2

X3 and this is coming from a millennial who is starting to see that attitude in the younger workforce.

 

[Squiffy]

well now it all makes more sense....if true what is being reported if I were a Leaf fan I would accept nothing less then Shanahan stepping down

That the president has say over the gm?

 

[hfman]

To publicly state on a Monday, I’m mentally struggling in my current role and may choose not to continue and then on the subsequent Thursday, ask for more money, more power and additional responsibility and offer to commit for an additional five years.

strange outcome thats for sure

 

[boxbox]

That the president has say over the gm?

If the president (Shanahan) did indeed step inn (by all accounts often enough) to block trades and moves made by the GM (Dubas) in what universe is it fair to blame the GM for any of the teams problems ? Dubas was Shanahan's hand picked hire, not only was he responsible for bringing Dubas on board but also for directly limiting Dubas's ability /freedom to do the job.

If the GM is only allowed to make the moves the president OK's then what really is the point of having a GM in the first place ? Simply put , the bad moves Dubas made are just as much on Shanahan, one could even say even more so, on him as they are on Dubas. As someone living in Ottawa who follows the Sens I am well aware of the all but negative impact such scenarios and ones with strong similarities tend to have on the team/organization. Maybe its just pure coincidence but after the Sens owner passed away (RIP) the Sens GM appeared to become far more capable at his position. Its worth mentioning because the owner for whatever reason choose to stick his nose into and get involved in matters of which neither required his involvement.

Don't think there has ever been a cup winning GM in the NHL who had someone breathing down their neck and limited freedom to do the job they were hired for. This is not a case of who has say over who. The president can have his say, but to do it often in a way that is preventing someone you hired for that job reeks of mistrust and lack or structure. The GM position is one that should come with full control and freedom in all aspects related to the GM position.

 

[Racer88]

Shanahan and Dubas both have been watching succession with everything that’s gone down this week.

Agreed. Is Dubas Tom the dummy or Greg the weasel lol

 

[CaptainCrunch17]

If the president (Shanahan) did indeed step inn (by all accounts often enough) to block trades and moves made by the GM (Dubas) in what universe is it fair to blame the GM for any of the teams problems ? Dubas was Shanahan's hand picked hire, not only was he responsible for bringing Dubas on board but also for directly limiting Dubas's ability /freedom to do the job.

If the GM is only allowed to make the moves the president OK's then what really is the point of having a GM in the first place ? Simply put , the bad moves Dubas made are just as much on Shanahan, one could even say even more so, on him as they are on Dubas. As someone living in Ottawa who follows the Sens I am well aware of the all but negative impact such scenarios and ones with strong similarities tend to have on the team/organization. Maybe its just pure coincidence but after the Sens owner passed away (RIP) the Sens GM appeared to become far more capable at his position. Its worth mentioning because the owner for whatever reason choose to stick his nose into and get involved in matters of which neither required his involvement.

Don't think there has ever been a cup winning GM in the NHL who had someone breathing down their neck and limited freedom to do the job they were hired for. This is not a case of who has say over who. The president can have his say, but to do it often in a way that is preventing someone you hired for that job reeks of mistrust and lack or structure. The GM position is one that should come with full control and freedom in all aspects related to the GM position.

What you’re proposing I don’t believe is realistic.

Both Dubas and Shanahan are technically and figuratively employees of MLSE. And given that fact, there are always going to be some kind of limitations on their ability to make completely autonomous decisions. It’s fair discussion that Dubas might want to have less restrictions on his autonomy and have more freedom to make decisions without prior approval, but he was never going to be given complete autonomy and neither is the next GM.

The only scenario where that becomes realistic, would be where the GM is also the owner.

The structure at MLSE is corporate in nature. So decisions of consequence for the GM are going to rise up a level to Shanahan and major decisions are going to go up to the board of MLSE for approval.

I’m sure what those autonomous decision making limitations are, are well spelled out in company policy.

That’s really no different than any corporate workplace.

 

[Malachi Crunch]

I think some of this seemingly originates from an overall generational divide we have in society today.

Dubas has seemingly appealed to, and is aligned philosophically with a younger generation and their thinking.

The generational divide, seems to cross many aspects of our society, sports, business and politics to name a few.

It seems to the younger generational thinkers, process alone, is sometimes viewed as being seemingly just as important, or even more important, than actual final outcomes.

Then however, when favourable outcomes are not achieved employing their progressive processes, the younger generation seemingly think the longstanding rules already in place, should simply be altered in such a way, and to such an extent, that the changes allow them to be successful without them having to change their preferred processes.

Case in point, many of us older fans recognize and have always recognized, that the playoffs are officiated completely differently versus the regular season. So therefore, having an offence first team built around a small group of four elite stars was always going to be a difficult structure to win it all.

Why?

In a salary cap world, there simply wouldn’t be enough salary left to round out a team with other meaningful players.

Lou would philosophically align with that traditional thinking I would suggest. He has a team first, individual second, managerial style and approach to the game. For Lou, the sum of the parts outweigh the worth of the individual. You play for the logo on the front of the jersey and not the name on the back of it and you win together as a team.

To me, individual accolades in life are great, but winning as a team to me is even better, as you have others to share the success with you.

Dubas obviously thought differently versus Lou and was confident that his “progressive approach” of an offence first model, could and would work, and I believe that is why Dubas desperately clung to his theory, trying year after failed year to win it all.

For Dubas true success represents winning, but doing so using his younger, “progressive” approach and proving the old guard wrong.

I believe that is why Dubas was so seemingly reluctant to move off his theories and change.

After this failed year, in what represents year five, what we saw was many of the Dubas supporters crying foul, that the longstanding tradition of the playoffs being officiated differently, is now suddenly unfair and is the actual root source of their collective failure. Not of course the flawed strategy their GM of choice put in place.

It’s not too different than what we see in a lot of our society today.

Life is too hard, or others have it better than us, so we want the rules changed in such a way and to an extent , that we’re just as successful as those more successful than us,—but oh, by the way—we aren’t prepared to make the requisite sacrifices required that those others did.

I think you nailed it.

I've felt like something deeper was going on with the Dubas adoration for a while now. I like Lou, but if the Leafs under Lou gave us similar results to Dubas, I'd buy him an edible flower arrangement and drive him to the airport after his firing. This attachment to Dubas is peculiar, but, like you said, seems generational.

On top of what you said, a lot of younger people have been exposed to this underlying philosophy at school that old people should not be trusted. They are dinosaurs in their thinking, oppressors etc. Kind of the opposite of what you see in India, China, and old Europe where older people are looked at as wise and play a big role in the culture in their old age. We're in the era where everything new is better (people, ideas) and old hierarchies should not exist. I often hear high school students say they will only respect teachers who respect them. They are equals.

So, yeah, Dubas represents the new and progressive and there is fear now that an old SOB - with the wrong type of ideas - will take over.

 

[bbgobie]

Well said.

Thanks for old splaining it

 

[DarkKnight]

Thanks for old splaining it

Asinine.

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

I can't believe Shanahan still has a job himself right now after that presser.

This is all Tanenbaum's fault.

My opinion of Tanenbaum has dropped even lower. The managerial incompetence displayed by the hockey team he owns is shocking. How anyone can be "fantastically supportive" of this anymore is beyond me.

I'd be ashamed to show my face in public again for allowing this to go on for so long if I was him.

I know he's an unapproachable rich guy that doesn't give a crap what whiny poor people like me have to say. But somebody, somewhere, must have said something to him by now. Because I don't see how thinking that doing nothing, that keeping Shanahan to make the right decision on the next GM, is the best option.

Dubas made everyone look the fool.

Someone more than a GM that didn't even want the job anymore needs to be held accountable. The fact Shanahan even admitted to waiting on that loser to make up his mind should be a fireable offense alone. Never mind the fact Shanahan apparently even offered it to him.

That would have been career suicide.

I know he's just a rich fool. But somebody need to get through to Tanenbaum. Make him realize what has been clear to everyone else for years.

Shanahan needs to go.

 

[Dayjobdave]

At the end of the day it comes down to trust.

It is pretty clear that Shanahan feels Dubas used the events of the week, the press conference and the current situation with impending no moves to make a money and power play.

Kyle is on team Kyle. Fair enough.

Then consider Matthews, Marner and Nylander all have no moves kicking in on the same day, and Marners no-move is 2 years before the end of his deal, not 1 Like the others.

All these were negotiated after Kyle got his 5 year deal.

Meaning their deals just happen to be structured in a way that gives maximum contract leverage to the guy who signed them, right when he might need it, and Kyle definitely tried to use that leverage.

Maybe Shanahan‘s revelation when he thought about the circumstances the Leafs are in with these contracts is that Kyle wanted it this way and might have planned it.

The second that crosses your mind you fire him.

 

[CaptainCrunch17]

I think you nailed it.

I've felt like something deeper was going on with the Dubas adoration for a while now. I like Lou, but if the Leafs under Lou gave us similar results to Dubas, I'd buy him an edible flower arrangement and drive him to the airport after his firing. This attachment to Dubas is peculiar, but, like you said, seems generational.

On top of what you said, a lot of younger people have been exposed to this underlying philosophy at school that old people should not be trusted. They are dinosaurs in their thinking, oppressors etc. Kind of the opposite of what you see in India, China, and old Europe where older people are looked at as wise and play a big role in the culture in their old age. We're in the era where everything new is better (people, ideas) and old hierarchies should not exist. I often hear high school students say they will only respect teachers who respect them. They are equals.

So, yeah, Dubas represents the new and progressive and there is fear now that an old SOB - with the wrong type of ideas - will take over.

I would guess the ultimate fear is that an “old SOB” takes over and finds success.

 

[CaptainCrunch17]

Thanks for old splaining it

If you go through life, never taking time to truly listen to those who disagree with you, or perhaps even just think differently from you, you will really limit your ability to learn anything new of consequence.

 

[ToneDog]

If you go through life, never taking time to truly listen to those who disagree with you, or perhaps even just think differently from you, you will really limit your ability to learn anything new of consequence.

You mean like when one of your assistants tell you not to trade for Murray for obvious reasons ?? Burkie, the lawyer said, I don't need employees who tell me when I am right, I need employees who tell me when I am wrong.

 

[CaptainCrunch17]

I can't believe Shanahan still has a job himself right now after that presser.

This is all Tanenbaum's fault.

My opinion of Tanenbaum has dropped even lower. The managerial incompetence displayed by the hockey team he owns is shocking. How anyone can be "fantastically supportive" of this anymore is beyond me.

I'd be ashamed to show my face in public again for allowing this to go on for so long if I was him.

I know he's an unapproachable rich guy that doesn't give a crap what whiny poor people like me have to say. But somebody, somewhere, must have said something to him by now. Because I don't see how thinking that doing nothing, that keeping Shanahan to make the right decision on the next GM, is the best option.

Dubas made everyone look the fool.

Someone more than a GM that didn't even want the job anymore needs to be held accountable. The fact Shanahan even admitted to waiting on that loser to make up his mind should be a fireable offense alone. Never mind the fact Shanahan apparently even offered it to him.

That would have been career suicide.

I know he's just a rich fool. But somebody need to get through to Tanenbaum. Make him realize what has been clear to everyone else for years.

Shanahan needs to go.

Except, Tanenbaum doesn’t own the team outright.

He only owns 25%.

Bell and Rogers collectively own the other 75%.

To affect change Larry needs one of either Bell or Rogers to back him.

 

[CaptainCrunch17]

You mean like when one of your assistants tell you not to trade for Murray for obvious reasons ?? Burkie, the lawyer said, I don't need employees who tell me when I am right, I need employees who tell me when I am wrong.

Yes, I think Burke is right.

I believe the most successful managers surround themselves with smart people who think differently than they do themselves.

They then solicit input from everyone and in the end are trusted to make what they feel is the very best decision. But even the best managers don’t get every decision right.

I manage my business that way, but you have to have the right voices with the right attitudes advising you. Unfortunately, some employees have a hard time offering input and advice when they feel that their advice is not ultimately taken. That can create workplace tension for sure.

 

[rumman]

I honestly find it kind of odd that the President of hockey operations of a multi billion dollar corporation comes out to a press conference and spills the entire story of private behind-the-doors negotiations between management personnel.............


Did Dubas know that his boss would come out to a public presentation and re-hash their private interactions to a bunch of media vultures like that? Talk about deceit!!

What is a future GM going to think about this? That every time Shanahan and I discuss a contract, he's going to turn around and air out the whole thing to the media scum at a press conference if I decide to not sign the deal?


something stinks there, the whole press conference isn't at face value because professionals like that don't do things like this


they can say whatever they want at a press conference but the reality is that none of us have any idea of what's really going on behind these multi-billion dollar corporations' closed doors

I’m of the opinion that Shanahan held back big time, he alluded to a email from Dubas more than once, I bet there’s plenty there that wasn’t spoken about, but mentioning it was a warning to boy wonder that if you want to get dirty, game on……..

Shanahan would've been fired as well if he didn't have a couple years left on his deal, and rightfully so.

I’d say he was kept on because of the impending NMC’s, he definitely deserves to be axed as well, he’s the architect of this fiasco………