Confirmed with Link: Shanahan, Dubas, Keefe all staying

[ACC1224]

I find it mind-boggling that the issue has persisted across two coaches and GMs and people think that if we get a coaching change, that will solve everything.

Also, Mike Johnson had the best take on this and basically said anyone wanting Keefe out is insane.

I prefer to think for myself. I'm guessing Johnsons take is the 'best' one because you agree with it.
Many experts feel that a coaching change should be explored. Which experts should we defer to?

 

[notbias]

I’m not advocating for the firing of Keefe, but I’m advocating for at least making sure he knows his job is not secure. I think as a management group you have to hold everyone in the organization to a high standard. Keefe has failed at the most important phase in the competition schedule 3 or 4 years in a row?

I think you have to at least EXPLORE the option of maybe replacing him if someone better can draw better results. That doesn’t mean that you should of course. But for them to come right out and give him a vote of confidence is crazy to me.

If there is one thing Dubas has shown he will move pieces if they aren't working, he is not married to his ideas, it is fan fiction that he is.

Ritchie is the perfect example, he was gone within a season of getting signed because it wasn't working, he accepted his mistake and moved him.

Which coach available gives you better results? You have to be sure because you are dropping a 115pt coach to hope a coach can get you further in the playoffs.

We are taking a coach from a team that didn't think the coach was good enough for them and hoping he is good enough for us.

I don't know what the private conversations are between them, but I'd be publically giving my team and staff confidence if I am the boss, no need to start a media circus.

 

[Nineteen67]

Better than our fanbase, that's for sure.

He’s similar to some that don’t watch a lot of hockey and understand the intangibles. At least he has admitted that his style of play wasn’t conducive to winning, even though he would have liked to have won,the price was more than he was willing to pay.

 

[Apex Predator]

The Leafs lost. Played a good series but fell short. It’s not the refs fault. Stop blaming the refs. You can argue that they were the best team in the playoffs or the 16th. End of the day they lost. It’s that simple. How you improve or stay the same you can debate but no need to keep making excuses they lost.

 

[Nineteen67]

If there is one thing Dubas has shown he will move pieces if they aren't working, he is not married to his ideas, it is fan fiction that he is.

Ritchie is the perfect example, he was gone within a season of getting signed because it wasn't working, he accepted his mistake and moved him.

Which coach available gives you better results? You have to be sure because you are dropping a 115pt coach to hope a coach can get you further in the playoffs.

We are taking a coach from a team that didn't think the coach was good enough for them and hoping he is good enough for us.

I don't know what the private conversations are between them, but I'd be publically giving my team and staff confidence if I am the boss, no need to start a media circus.

Keefe is 6-8 in the playoffs and 2-3 in play in games. Having said that I’m not convinced that any coach could have beaten Tampa when they rely on a roster with-
Spezza
Simmonds
Nylander
Engvall
Mikheyev
Kerfoote
Kase

 

[francis246]

If there is one thing Dubas has shown he will move pieces if they aren't working, he is not married to his ideas, it is fan fiction that he is.

Ritchie is the perfect example, he was gone within a season of getting signed because it wasn't working, he accepted his mistake and moved him.

Which coach available gives you better results? You have to be sure because you are dropping a 115pt coach to hope a coach can get you further in the playoffs.

We are taking a coach from a team that didn't think the coach was good enough for them and hoping he is good enough for us.

I don't know what the private conversations are between them, but I'd be publically giving my team and staff confidence if I am the boss, no need to start a media circus.

I don’t think it’s necessarily just about that he points. I think it’s about finding a coach that can push these guys over the top. I won’t even equate it to the raptors anymore but I’ll equate it to both Tampa and then the Washington Capitals. Steve Stamkos himself said he and a lot of the other lightning players wouldn’t be the players they are today without Guy Boucher. Boucher was able to help them unlock their offensive talent and explode but Jon Cooper brought the championship structure and was the right voice to help them get over the hump.

Washington had Beaudreau and Oates who were great coaches who had great seasons and helped players achieve great individual success. But they needed Trotz’s structure and voice to get them over the edge. I think Keefe is a great coach, but I don’t think he is the right voice or leader for them. I just don’t think he has it with this group to be able to get them to run through the wall. Sometimes that’s just what it is. I do think this group who has matured now needs a veteran coach. I think Keefe will be very successful in his next stop but I don’t think he’s the guy who will lead us to multiple round victories.

 

[Dekes For Days]

If luck is just a fluke result...should we not have been lucky at least once? This is why you can't say that luck is the main issue...

Not necessarily, and who says we haven't been at times in our playoff history? It just doesn't automatically mean a series win. You seem to be under the impression that people are saying we've lost 6 straight playoff series primarily by being unlucky, but that's not true. We're just acknowledging the impact luck has in this game, and in our recent outcomes that have been by the tiniest of margins.

We set a record for futility by going 6 straight game 7 or equivalent losses in a row. That isn't luck...nobody else has managed that feat.

1. Technically that's not the record.
2. While we did set a record, the only reason we were able to set that record is because the record first necessitates doing something/being in a specific set of situations that is extremely rare.
3. Just because luck has impacted that record doesn't mean the entirety of that record is exclusively luck.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

I don’t think it’s necessarily just about that he points. I think it’s about finding a coach that can push these guys over the top. I won’t even equate it to the raptors anymore but I’ll equate it to both Tampa and then the Washington Capitals. Steve Stamkos himself said he and a lot of the other lightning players wouldn’t be the players they are today without Guy Boucher. Boucher was able to help them unlock their offensive talent and explode but Jon Cooper brought the championship structure and was the right voice to help them get over the hump.

Washington had Beaudreau and Oates who were great coaches who had great seasons and helped players achieve great individual success. But they needed Trotz’s structure and voice to get them over the edge. I think Keefe is a great coach, but I don’t think he is the right voice or leader for them. I just don’t think he has it with this group to be able to get them to run through the wall. Sometimes that’s just what it is. I do think this group who has matured now needs a veteran coach. I think Keefe will be very successful in his next stop but I don’t think he’s the guy who will lead us to multiple round victories.

What does Keefe do as a coach that makes some people call him great? Do you seriously think any half decent coach wouldn't get you to at least 108 points with all that talent? What has he done specifically that people clamor on about? Is it the tight defence?---nope...is it the losing to Buffalo and the Habs ? I just don't get the love for this guy.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Not necessarily, and who says we haven't been at times in our playoff history? It just doesn't automatically mean a series win. You seem to be under the impression that people are saying we've lost 6 straight playoff series primarily by being unlucky, but that's not true. We're just acknowledging the impact luck has in this game, and in our recent outcomes that have been by the tiniest of margins.

1. Technically that's not the record.
2. While we did set a record, the only reason we were able to set that record is because the record first necessitates doing something/being in a specific set of situations that is extremely rare.
3. Just because luck has impacted that record doesn't mean the entirety of that record is exclusively luck.

So if it's not luck...what is it? What can you definitively say causes us to lose all these important game 7 (or equivalent) tilts? On the one hand you say we are unlucky...and the next you are saying it's not as important as we think it is. I am saying it's not luck. Luck to me is a shot going wide that bounces off a couple of guys and goes into our net. We have brain farts from Gally and Dermott along with Kerfoot. We have AM and MM that barely register any points in deciding games....That is a different animal all together.

 

[Stephen]

I'm not sure where this idea that they're an "industry disruptor" came from, but they certainly don't talk and act like that, and we don't do things nearly as differently as some people seem to think.

Yes they do. They talk about how the power play will be their enforcer, they talk about outskilling the opposition (how novel) and they’ve consistently pushed an unusual cap allocation. They are basically trying to reinvent the wheel by doing everything a little bit differently tilted towards offensive possession based on Pep Guardiola football tactics. They are clearly trying to demonstrate they are doing something that isn’t business as usual, isn’t typical.

And you know what, they constantly lose to teams that are counter balancing their “out skill them” game.

 

[Stephen]

What does Keefe do as a coach that makes some people call him great? Do you seriously think any half decent coach wouldn't get you to at least 108 points with all that talent? What has he done specifically that people clamor on about? Is it the tight defence?---nope...is it the losing to Buffalo and the Habs ? I just don't get the love for this guy.

My feeling about Keefe and Dubas is they’ve basically increased the “risk” slider by enabling everyone on their roster to activate offensively and perform higher danger reversals and pinches at times a more typical team will not. You don’t typically see guys like Lyubushkin enabled to do a cross ice pinch to the far corner or Holl to consistently roam behind the opposition net or a guy like Kerfoot to pull an Elvis Stoijko at center in a playoff game. Often it pays off and you profit from this aggressive possession style. But it’s prone to catastrophic breakdowns as well. (Kerfoot at center, Dermott and Galchenyuk in OT).

 

[Dekes For Days]

So if it's not luck...what is it? What can you definitively say causes us to lose all these important game 7 (or equivalent) tilts?

If you're talking about the different series as a whole, a number of different reasons. If you're talking about game 7s specifically overall, goaltending has undeniably been the biggest issue. In our five winner-take-all games, our opponents have received 0.954 goaltending, and we have received 0.887 goaltending - including many goals against that are absolute stinkers.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Yes they do. They talk about how the power play will be their enforcer, they talk about outskilling the opposition (how novel) and they’ve consistently pushed an unusual cap allocation.

No, they don't. The "powerplay being the enforcer" is a really old saying and approach, and in Toronto, it was said by Babcock. "Outskilling opponents" is not a Dubas invention either. That's pretty much just what hockey is, and they have repeatedly pointed to back-to-back Cup champion Tampa as an example of what they mean. One of the biggest "outskill" teams in the league is currently in the cup finals. As for the cap allocation, that came from a once-in-a-lifetime global pandemic that stagnated the cap, not from a choice, and teams have operated and even won before with a high amount of cap allocated to their top players. None of these things are new.

Nothing about what Dubas has done has been trying to "reinvent the wheel".

 

[Nineteen67]

If you're talking about the different series as a whole, a number of different reasons. If you're talking about game 7s specifically overall, goaltending has undeniably been the biggest issue. In our five winner-take-all games, our opponents have received 0.954 goaltending, and we have received 0.887 goaltending - including many goals against that are absolute stinkers.

Exactly. The other teams play better in winner take all games. Every time.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Exactly. The other teams play better in winner take all games. Every time.

Our opponent's goalies have certainly played better than our goalies in winner take all games.

 

[capfit9]

Our opponent's goalies have certainly played better than our goalies in winner take all games.

that is a laughable comment

 

[Dekes For Days]

that is a laughable comment

It's literal fact, and I'm not sure how you'd argue otherwise.

 

[Bluelines]

Interesting article to hear Torts mindset on coaching in regular season vs playoffs.. I think Keefe has the regular season thing down but I'm not sure torts is describing Keefe's coaching style in the playoffs.

Sports Betting News from Gambling Industry Experts

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www.prosportsdaily.com

Come the playoffs, when it’s time to put that all to the test, the mindset for everyone has to pivot to the greater good of the group.​

​

“I tell my players this,” Tortorella said. “We spend 82 games where it’s coaching staff and players and we’re trying to kick, punch, spit, push, tug, bite, whatever you want to do to get you to play every night in the regular season. It’s not an even playing ground. It’s the staff and the players.”​

​

But the moment you start preparing for the playoffs?​

​

​

“Now it’s a different dynamic,” said Tortorella. “We’re in it together. We’re with you now. We’re going to do this together. I want them to understand that right away. It’s us now. It’s coaches and players. It’s ‘us,’ it’s ‘we.’ ”​

​

You can afford to have patience in the regular season. The key in the playoffs is understanding that patience is more a luxury and that by their very nature every playoff series is shot through with a sense of urgency.​

 

[Nineteen67]

Our opponent's goalies have certainly played better than our goalies in winner take all games.

That’s obvious. Every time they've had a chance to advance, their goaltending has been suspect. It began in the first Boston series and it’s incredible that it hasn’t been fixed.

 

[Nineteen67]

that is a laughable comment

It’s laughable that it hasn’t been fixed. Year 5 and the same problem exist.

 

[Dekes For Days]

That’s obvious. Every time they've had a chance to advance, their goaltending has been suspect. It began in the first Boston series and it’s incredible that it hasn’t been fixed.

I think people think it's an easier fix than it actually is.

 

[Stephen]

No, they don't. The "powerplay being the enforcer" is a really old saying and approach, and in Toronto, it was said by Babcock. "Outskilling opponents" is not a Dubas invention either. That's pretty much just what hockey is, and they have repeatedly pointed to back-to-back Cup champion Tampa as an example of what they mean. One of the biggest "outskill" teams in the league is currently in the cup finals. As for the cap allocation, that came from a once-in-a-lifetime global pandemic that stagnated the cap, not from a choice, and teams have operated and even won before with a high amount of cap allocated to their top players. None of these things are new.

Nothing about what Dubas has done has been trying to "reinvent the wheel".

There’s no evidence to suggest Toronto is remotely similar to Tampa in team construction. We don’t have a core of 6’3” plus defensemen from the number one to number 6, we don’t have a Hall of Fame level goalie, our bottom six construction is different. The best 4x forwards on Tampa Bay aren’t that similar to our 4x top forwards in play style, age. Tampa doesn’t outskill everyone else. They out-everything everyone.

 

[Dekes For Days]

There’s no evidence to suggest Toronto is remotely similar to Tampa in team construction.

We're a lot more similar to Tampa (or cup finalist Colorado, if you prefer) than people like to think, outside of Vasilevsky, and the main point was that that is who was referenced and what was meant by "outskilling your opponent", not whatever you seem to think it means. Nothing about what Dubas has done has been trying to "reinvent the wheel".

 

[Mess]

I think people think it's an easier fix than it actually is.

Then lets not pretend were a Cup contender without a reliable goalie leading the way. Fans always falsely believe Leafs offense can outscore their defensive mistakes and goalie struggles.

Goaltending is Leafs weakest link, and Leafs usually have the 2nd best goalie in the series, so the end results are predictable for those that support the theory that "Good teams are built from the goalie out'.

Its not a surprise the reigning Conn Smythe playoff MVP winning goalie Vasilevskiy s battling the Vezina and Hart finalist Shesterkin in round #3 for the right to hoist the Cup. Perhaps the 2 best goalies in the world currently leading their teams onward and coming up big when it matters most.

"Defense wins Championships" and its your goalie that is captain of Team defense as the last line before the puck goes in your own net.

Until the Leafs start investing real cap money into a real goalie, Leafs will remain pretenders and not contenders,

 

[ToneDog]

It's literal fact, and I'm not sure how you'd argue otherwise.

A 1.65m goalie gives up 1 more goal in game 7 than a vezina trophy, 9.5m goalie while $40+m worth of forwards can't find an extra goal in 4+ periods of hockey while Nick Paul finds 2. I thought Dubas said he bet it all on 16,24,88 and 91 not 36 or are you now going to tell me that 36 is part of the core? The same guy Dubas is going to let walk for $1.65m in cap space.