Confirmed with Link: Shanahan, Dubas, Keefe all staying

[keonsbitterness]

Ya no kidding

Keefe hasn’t done squat in the playoffs

I bet he can do more squats than you and me combined.

 

[Racer88]

I bet he can do more squats than you and me combined.

You may have a point…….lol

 

[SeaOfBlue]

I see a lot of guys who’ve advanced past round 1 on that list! Keefe hasn’t tho



The thing is the lucky bounce didn’t win the raptors the championship. They rallied after that bounce and believed they could really win a championship after that. They still had to win two series after that bounce. Also you have to credit the coaches for drawing up a play that got Kawhi open for the shot in the first place. Nurse completely revamped the way the team played and their mindset towards winning.

Im not sure the same can be said about Keefe, the players mindset hasn’t changed all that much.

And how do we know the Leafs can't rally after getting past the first round?

Ultimately, we don't know about Keefe and the Leafs. Maybe we get swept in the 2nd round. Maybe we win a Cup. Mentally, the Leafs are capable of either. Skill-wise, we are certainly closer to the latter.

All we know is that the narrative is very different (or at least should be) if that shot doesn't go in and the Raps end up losing the series in OT. Raps don't win a Championship, Leonard walks with nothing to show for it, and the Raps are back to rebuilding and ultimately having no real progress or success before serious regression under Ujiri.

Leafs fans have already called for our current management and coaching collective heads for a lot less.

 

[Gallagbi]

To be honest, I think the big issue with the Leafs in these elimination games is that they stop playing their game and start trying to play shutdown-style hockey. The Leafs are at their most effective when they're attacking, but in elimination games they seem to spend most of the game trying to avoid making mistakes when they should be pressing, like they do in any other game.

For a lot of elimination games, they seem scared to make a mistake snd fall behind. I wouldn't say it was the case this year

 

[francis246]

And how do we know the Leafs can't rally after getting past the first round?

Ultimately, we don't know about Keefe and the Leafs. Maybe we get swept in the 2nd round. Maybe we win a Cup. Mentally, the Leafs are capable of either. Skill-wise, we are certainly closer to the latter.

All we know is that the narrative is very different (or at least should be) if that shot doesn't go in and the Raps end up losing the series in OT. Raps don't win a Championship, Leonard walks with nothing to show for it, and the Raps are back to rebuilding and ultimately having no real progress or success before serious regression under Ujiri.

Leafs fans have already called for our current management and coaching collective heads for a lot less.

well I mainly live in reality and facts. The fact of the matter is Kawhi didn't miss the shot and the Raptors did win the championship. The Leafs haven't gotten past the first round and that's why there is outrage for the Leafs and praise for the Raptors because they actually got it done. No need to think about hypotheticals

 

[SeaOfBlue]

well I mainly live in reality and facts. The fact of the matter is Kawhi didn't miss the shot and the Raptors did win the championship. The Leafs haven't gotten past the first round and that's why there is outrage for the Leafs and praise for the Raptors because they actually got it done. No need to think about hypotheticals

I do too, and the fact of the matter is, it was a low percentage shot that was extremely lucky... And yet led to a series of events which completely changes a narrative. The decisions Ujiri made leading up to that event did not change because the ball went in. However, how they were perceived after the fact completely changed.

You may not need to think about hypotheticals, but management teams do. That hypothetical is the difference between Ujiri deciding to make that Leonard trade decision again if given the chance, or not. That decision resulted in a team that, with some luck, was able to win a Championship. If he didn't have that luck, does that mean he should not make those same decisions?

The Leafs have been in the same situation as the Raps were in on numerous occasions. We had a chance to win. However, we have been on the wrong side of the bounce each time. 3 of the last 5 series clinching games were OT losses, and the 4th was a close one-goal game with a tying goal called back. If we win one of those OT's, do we win a Cup? That is a hypothetical that Dubas and Co. needs to think about, and that hypothetical will guide their decisions.

 

[BrannigansLaw]

At this point, we deserve to lose in round one again next year bringing back these guys.

What team wouldn’t want their abundance of managerial experience in post Game 7 and locker room clean out speech experience.

 

[LeafEgo]

It's crazy how our fans want the scraps of other well-run teams, you'd think if it isn't good for a losing team like Boston, it isn't good enough for us.

Different teams different circumstances. Now wouldn't be the worst time for Boston to bring in a rookie GM. The worst time would be when the Leafs did it.

 

[3blizzard4]

Speaking of Boston in 2006 the Interim GM Jeff Gorton drafts Kessel, Lucic and Marchand im the same draft.

I mean talk about incredible! He was replaced by Chiarelli after the draft.

 

[hotpaws]

I do too, and the fact of the matter is, it was a low percentage shot that was extremely lucky... And yet led to a series of events which completely changes a narrative. The decisions Ujiri made leading up to that event did not change because the ball went in. However, how they were perceived after the fact completely changed.

You may not need to think about hypotheticals, but management teams do. That hypothetical is the difference between Ujiri deciding to make that Leonard trade decision again if given the chance, or not. That decision resulted in a team that, with some luck, was able to win a Championship. If he didn't have that luck, does that mean he should not make those same decisions?

The Leafs have been in the same situation as the Raps were in on numerous occasions. We had a chance to win. However, we have been on the wrong side of the bounce each time. 3 of the last 5 series clinching games were OT losses, and the 4th was a close one-goal game with a tying goal called back. If we win one of those OT's, do we win a Cup? That is a hypothetical that Dubas and Co. needs to think about, and that hypothetical will guide their decisions.

since winning seems to be all based on luck in your opinion maybe we should fire Dubas/Keefe and find a luckier GM/Coach ?

 

[LilySmoov]

The fact that actually thoughtful posts that make earnest attempts at analyses don't garner much of a positive response, but stupid, empty nonsense like "I live in facts and the fact is Kawhi made the shot" gets multiple likes is a horrendous indictment of the people who post here. Man literally said "No need for hypotheticals" like yeah why would you want to waste time thinking about things like a nerd when you can just mindlessly regurgitate some overly simplistic rhetoric.

since winning seems to be all based on luck in your opinion maybe we should fire Dubas/Keefe and find a luckier GM/Coach ?

Can you legitimately not read or do you seriously believe he said winning is all based on luck?

 

[hotpaws]

The fact that actually thoughtful posts that make earnest attempts at analyses don't garner much of a positive response, but stupid, empty nonsense like "I live in facts and the fact is Kawhi made the shot" gets multiple likes is a horrendous indictment of the people who post here. Man literally said "No need for hypotheticals" like yeah why would you want to waste time thinking about things like a nerd when you can just mindlessly regurgitate some overly simplistic rhetoric.


Can you legitimately not read or do you seriously believe he said winning is all based on luck?

I read just fine and how many times does someone try to spin a shot like somehow that play was the main reason the Raps went through 4 series to win the championship is just sad and what's worse is trying to diminish Masai's and the Raps title to prop up Leafs failures .

and that's what you should be upset about and not my post

 

[Le Cobra]

Fire/demote Keefe Hire Trotz. I guarantee we make it past the first rd next season

In Trotz, who was recently fired by the New York Islanders after missing the playoffs for the first time in four years, you’ve got a head coach who has not only won a Stanley Cup, but who got a Washington team that looks a lot like Toronto does right now over the hump. He transformed the Capitals from chokers into champions. He took Alex Ovechkin from an offence-first sniper into being a team-first winner. And then he did something even more remarkable, he took a bunch of nobodies in Long Island to back-to-back conference finals.

A chronic overachiever, Trotz has won 12 rounds in the past seven years. That’s 12 more than what Keefe and Mike Babcock combined for during the same span.

TRAIKOS: Why the Maple Leafs should fire Sheldon Keefe — and hire Barry Trotz

You could come up with a hundred or more reasons why Sheldon Keefe, who won a franchise-record 54 games and 115 points this year, deserves to be back behind the ben…

torontosun.com

 

[Le Cobra]

delete

 

[francis246]

I do too, and the fact of the matter is, it was a low percentage shot that was extremely lucky... And yet led to a series of events which completely changes a narrative. The decisions Ujiri made leading up to that event did not change because the ball went in. However, how they were perceived after the fact completely changed.

You may not need to think about hypotheticals, but management teams do. That hypothetical is the difference between Ujiri deciding to make that Leonard trade decision again if given the chance, or not. That decision resulted in a team that, with some luck, was able to win a Championship. If he didn't have that luck, does that mean he should not make those same decisions?

The Leafs have been in the same situation as the Raps were in on numerous occasions. We had a chance to win. However, we have been on the wrong side of the bounce each time. 3 of the last 5 series clinching games were OT losses, and the 4th was a close one-goal game with a tying goal called back. If we win one of those OT's, do we win a Cup? That is a hypothetical that Dubas and Co. needs to think about, and that hypothetical will guide their decisions.

Thank you for taking the time to explain more in depth. I do agree with you, management groups do need to think in hypotheticals but you cannot expect fans who invest in the team emotionally and financially to always accept them. What matters to fans is wins and loses.

So here’s my counter, and I’m accepting that basketball is different than hockey. So what I was trying to explain to you earlier is that, even if we accept your premise that the Raptors management team thought in hypotheticals (which I 100% believe they did the summer leading into their championship season), they actually acted on those hypotheticals and internal discussions.

For example, Prior to Kawhi, Demar was the one who had the ball in late game situations and his success rate of converting was fairly low. So I’m sure at their internal meeting they brought up, “ hypothetically if we needed someone to make a shot for us in a late game situation could we trust demar? Or is there a player out there on the market that is known for having a better conversion rate in those situations? Further more if he is available are we willing and prepared for the acquisition cost?” Clearly they answered yes to those questions. What we may see as a low percentage shot for the average player is a slightly higher percentage shot for CERTAIN NBA players, for example Steph Curry, Klay Thompson, Kawhi, Paul George, Lebron, a few other three point shooters. So they prepared themselves and acquired a player incase they found themselves in that situation as Kawhi had that reputation for being clutch even before coming to the raptors.

My question and I’m not sure you can answer is, what would be the equivalent discussion in hockey? Is there even one? I think that’s where fans are trying to draw the comparison. What can Dubas do ahead of the playoffs so that if we are in a need a lucky bounce situation our percentages of getting them are slightly higher or we can simply take advantage of the opportunity.

 

[Blowfish]

Dubas has put himself in a tough and almost unmanageable, lose-lose situation.

Your top 4 players just can't make up almost half the cap it's just too hard to maneuver around that. But what are the solutions?

Trade Nylander: Trading a ppg winger making under 7M who is just as good as the 11M players in the playoffs just doesn't seem like a great idea. Especially for a team that needs to extract as much value as possible because you have 33M tied up to three guys. It's an option for sure and probably the most likely to happen, but at best it seems like it would be a lateral move, at worst you have another Kadri situation.

Trade Tavares: Yeah you can scratch that off the list. The team would never approach the Captain and discuss a potential trade with him. And even if they somehow had the balls to do it, 0% chance JT waives his NTC. JT will play out the remaining contract here at a minimum. You just have to hope that the Leafs being nice with JT now means when his contract is up he'll accept league minimum to be a third line faceoff specialist.

Trade Marner: Makes sense from a cap rebalancing perspective, but this franchise was starved for elite talent for so long. Honestly Mitch might be the best Leaf since Sundin (not including Matthews). That's a piece that is very very hard to trade away. He's great EV, on the PP, on the PK and has an unbelievable (regular season) connection with the most skilled Leaf to ever don the jersey. You only trade Mitch for ridiculous haul i.e. a bonafide top two defense man, top 6 forward, and quality third line Power Forward. Maybe add a pick in their too.

Trade Matthews: Lol. Leafs wouldn't even entertain it unless he vocally says he isn't resigning. Even then, the whole Leaf brass probably flies over to Arizona to do and say whatever is necessary to get him to stay.

Truely tough position to be in. And while it's easy to blame Dubas (I think he definitely deserves a good chunk of blame) he was a green GM and backed into a corner.

Hindsight is 20/20 but if you believed in what you had with Matthews, Marner, and Nylander you don't just go sign 11M dollar forwards. Saying that, time is of the essence when you have stars on ELC and the signing of JT was under the assumption of a rising Salary Cap. Dubbie got screwed in that regard.

Dubas held firm on the Nylander signing and took it to the 11th hour. While he didn't get the number he wanted he still ended up getting a great deal for Nylander. I think you can chalk that up as a success.

Marner contract. Regular season Marner I have no issues with his contract. Playoff Marner.... Would much rather see that number at 9 then just under 11. We saw some dirty tactics from the Marner camp and honestly Mitch's deal is one I wouldn't mind if it went to the 11th hour as well. It might be New GM suicide for Dubas to do that two years in a row with a couple of your best players though.

Matthews is a generational goal scoring number 1 centre. He was going to get whatever he reasonably wanted.

It would have been nice if M,M and N took the McDavid route and signed long term, team friendly deals to help really build a winner here, but you can't blame athletes trying to make as much money in their job as possible while they're still young. You also look at McDavid who's about to get swept in the Conference Finals and wonder if he's happy he took a discount to play in Edmonton.

Anyway, tough spot to be in Dubas. No 100% clear cut solutions. Will be interesting to see what happens.

Good post and something has to change....so

Tavares - difficult to trade (age contract decline)
Nylander - to good a player/contract to trade
Marner - very good player but terrible contract could be traded
Matthews - obviously the best player however if there's any inclination he won't resign with the leafs? You make a big ass trade to improve D, goaltending, and draft picks.

 

[Nineteen67]

To Triple down on my point

2009 - Pittsburgh Penguins/Marc Andre Fleury (Drafted 1st OVR, 2003 by PIT) [$5mill cap hit that year]
2010 - Chicago Blackhawks/Antti Niemi (Undrafted, signed in 2008 and developed in AHL) [$800k cap hit that year]
2011 - Boston Bruins/Tim Thomas (Undrafted, signed in 2005 and developed in AHL) [$5mill cap hit that year]
2012 - Los Angeles Kings/Jonathan Quick (Drafted 72nd OVR, 2005 by LA) [$1.8 mill cap hit that year]
2013 - Chicago Blackhawks/Corey Crawford (52nd OVR, 2003 by CHI) [$2.66 mill cap hit that year]
2014 - Los Angeles Kings/Jonathan Quick (Drafted 72nd OVR, 2005 by LA) [$5.8 mill cap hit that year]
2015 - Chicago Blackhawks/Corey Crawford (52nd OVR, 2003 by CHI) [$6 mill cap hit that year]
2016 - Pittsburgh Penguins/Matt Murray (Drafted 83rd OVR, 2012 by PIT) [$600k cap hit that year]
2017 - Pittsburgh Penguins/Matt Murray & Marc Andre Fleury Split (Drafted 83rd OVR, 2012 by PIT) [$600k cap hit that year]
2018 - Washington Capitals/Braden Holtby (Drafted 93rd OVR by WSH) [6.1 mill cap hit that year]
2019 - St. Louis Blues/Jordan Binnington (Drafted 88th OVR by STL) [$650k cap hit that year]
2020 - Tampa Bay Lightning/Andrei Vasilevski (Drafted 19th OVR by TB) [$3.5 mill cap hit that year]
2021 - Tampa Bay Lightning/Andrei Vasilevski (Drafted 19th OVR by TB) [$9.5 mill cap hit that year]

Just a little bit of research goes to show you, if you want to win in the playoffs you better drafted and develop a goalie or sign one with potential and allow him to grow within your system. The cap hits fluctuated each year for the goalies. It really has nothing to do with cap hit. You don't need to spend a lot to get a goalie, you need to draft and develop one and preferably win your first cup while they are on a cheaper contract before you have to extend them because it's unlikely you're going back to the finals with them.

I hate going in on people, but I think you've been fairly wrong in your last few takes and I wanted to provide proof to support my claims.

Ive repeatedly said that the Leafs window to win would come post Freddy. We saw it very early on that Freddy wasn’t the answer and I had assumed that one of Woll or Scott would develop enough to carry the team on a playoff run when and if they were ever ready to contend.
Management must have realised the goalies weren’t developing and they addressed by acquiring Campbell, however the cap mismanagement had hindered their ability to get him signed and find an adequate partner.
Given the clean slate that management started with they should have their goalie situation settled by now rather than hoping they can find someone.

 

[francis246]

I repeatedly said that the Leafs window to win would come post Freddy. We saw it very early on that Freddy wasn’t the answer and I had assumed that one of Woll or Scott would develop enough to carry the team on a playoff run when and if they were ever ready to contend.
Management must have realised the goalies weren’t developing and they addressed by acquiring Campbell, however the cap mismanagement had hindered their ability to get him signed and find an adequate partner.
Given the clean slate that management started with they should have their goalie situation settled by now rather than hoping they can find someone.

I think there has to be approach where you identify a guy whether its through trade or UFA and try and ride that guy, but at the same time you have to continue to try and draft and develop a guy internally incase you end up in a situation like we are right now. How nice would it be if we had our own internal solution and let Campbell walk. We'd have a cheap replacement. It's easier said than done but you have to invest in that route as well. To be honest I think Joe Woll could potentially be that guy, he has the qualities to be a starter potentially but has so much work to do. It's about if they can be patient and give him the opportunity to grow into it.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

To be honest, I think the big issue with the Leafs in these elimination games is that they stop playing their game and start trying to play shutdown-style hockey. The Leafs are at their most effective when they're attacking, but in elimination games they seem to spend most of the game trying to avoid making mistakes when they should be pressing, like they do in any other game.

To be fair I think they try the shutdown hockey because they are terrified their goalie will let in a few softies. Fred did it...Jack did it...and that kind of takes you out of your game a bit. It would be better if we didn't have this high flying offence and we are able to smother other teams and use our top guys to pop in a few to make the difference. All teams need to do against us is be patient...we will do something wrong at the worst time. Why? I really don't know...but it happens with stunning regularity.

 

[Nineteen67]

To be fair I think they try the shutdown hockey because they are terrified their goalie will let in a few softies. Fred did it...Jack did it...and that kind of takes you out of your game a bit. It would be better if we didn't have this high flying offence and we are able to smother other teams and use our top guys to pop in a few to make the difference. All teams need to do against us is be patient...we will do something wrong at the worst time. Why? I really don't know...but it happens with stunning regularity.

Cooper‘s approach is playing a concerted D and letting the offence take care of itself. When he said they gave games away in round 1 he was referring to their lack of detail to the defensive game plan. It’s hard, but effective.

 

[killer1980]

The Leafs haven't gotten past the first round and that's why there is outrage for the Leafs and praise for the Raptors because they actually got it done.

Get Er Done GIFs | Tenor

Click to view the GIF

tenor.com

 

[Marmoset]

I do too, and the fact of the matter is, it was a low percentage shot that was extremely lucky... And yet led to a series of events which completely changes a narrative. The decisions Ujiri made leading up to that event did not change because the ball went in. However, how they were perceived after the fact completely changed.

You may not need to think about hypotheticals, but management teams do. That hypothetical is the difference between Ujiri deciding to make that Leonard trade decision again if given the chance, or not. That decision resulted in a team that, with some luck, was able to win a Championship. If he didn't have that luck, does that mean he should not make those same decisions?

The Leafs have been in the same situation as the Raps were in on numerous occasions. We had a chance to win. However, we have been on the wrong side of the bounce each time. 3 of the last 5 series clinching games were OT losses, and the 4th was a close one-goal game with a tying goal called back. If we win one of those OT's, do we win a Cup? That is a hypothetical that Dubas and Co. needs to think about, and that hypothetical will guide their decisions.

I think there is a fallacy in trying to compare Kawhi's shot and the Leafs being close against Tampa this season. The Raptors were in the second round, not the first, and had already been to the conference finals in a previous season. The Raptors were actually in the second round for the fourth consecutive season at the point the Kawhi shot occurred. They had proven they were a contender. You can say the Leafs are a contender, but it's subjective depending on how much you value playoff vs. regular season success.

It is true that in both cases the result changes the narrative, but the Raptors had already demonstrated a higher level of success and competitiveness before reaching that key moment.

Another big difference in the discussion is that Masai made the big moves to take the next step - the Kawhi trade, also the Gasol trade. Dubas has not made such a move and seems determined not to, although Masai wasn't going to trade DeRozan until he did. We have a long summer to go.

I apologize if I repeated things already covered as I didn't read through the whole discussion.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Okay so thank you for confirming that you can't read. I'm actually astonished at your lack of reading comprehension. He never said that shot was the main reason for anything aside from it being a defining moment in a series of events that allowed the narrative around the team to change. And honest to god please tell me where he diminished Masai's accomplishments. Because he actually did the opposite. Masai constructed a championship-caliber team that was the beneficiary of a very lucky play at a very critical moment. Now hypothetically, if we don't get that bounce and Philly wins in OT, does that make that Raptor team significantly less impressive or less well-constructed? Does your perception of the team radically change because of a single shot followed by an additional 5 minutes of overtime which may not have gone their way? Because if so, then frankly you're an idiot.

Similarly, what if the Leafs are the beneficiary of a single lucky play at a critical moment in that game 6 OT? Do we suddenly go from playoff chokers with no killer instinct to a team who's conquered their demons because, say, Holl fired a weak wrister from the blueline that ramped up off Kucherov's stick, hit Hedman between the eyes, and just barely trickled by Vasi? Because if so, then frankly you're an idiot.

There's no meaningful information to be gleaned when your entire argument is one big stupid affirming the consequent fallacy predicated on a lazy narrative. "If we lose, it's 'cause no killer instinct (or whatever braindead narrative one prefers). We lost, therefore no killer instinct." Hockey is a game of inches that's played at a mile a minute, wherein random, ridiculous, unintentional shit happens all the time, and to ignore this because you can't be bothered to think critically about the events that actually produced the outcome you so lament is folly.

The larger point is, if you actually want to understand why we are where we are (and hopefully avoid being there in the future) you have to look at HOW we got where we are, not simply that we got where we are.

The Raps might have been lucky...but Luck is where preparation and opportunity meet.

We are not more prepared than others and thus our team doesn't get the benefit of the bounces. Dubas thinks it just flukey luck....if you keep thinking that...you will end up on the wrong end more often than not.

 

[Dekes For Days]

The Raps might have been lucky...but Luck is where preparation and opportunity meet.

That's largely just what people who have been lucky say to try and downplay the impact luck had on where they are. If the shot bounces out and we lose, it doesn't mean we were any less prepared, and that opportunity for the shot still existed.

We are not more prepared than others and thus our team doesn't get the benefit of the bounces.

Nothing indicates that we are less prepared than the teams we face.

 

[hotpaws]

Okay so thank you for confirming that you can't read. I'm actually astonished at your lack of reading comprehension. He never said that shot was the main reason for anything aside from it being a defining moment in a series of events that allowed the narrative around the team to change. And honest to god please tell me where he diminished Masai's accomplishments. Because he actually did the opposite. Masai constructed a championship-caliber team that was the beneficiary of a very lucky play at a very critical moment. Now hypothetically, if we don't get that bounce and Philly wins in OT, does that make that Raptor team significantly less impressive or less well-constructed? Does your perception of the team radically change because of a single shot followed by an additional 5 minutes of overtime which may not have gone their way? Because if so, then frankly you're an idiot.

Similarly, what if the Leafs are the beneficiary of a single lucky play at a critical moment in that game 6 OT? Do we suddenly go from playoff chokers with no killer instinct to a team who's conquered their demons because, say, Holl fired a weak wrister from the blueline that ramped up off Kucherov's stick, hit Hedman between the eyes, and just barely trickled by Vasi? Because if so, then frankly you're an idiot.

There's no meaningful information to be gleaned when your entire argument is one big stupid affirming the consequent fallacy predicated on a lazy narrative. "If we lose, it's 'cause no killer instinct (or whatever braindead narrative one prefers). We lost, therefore no killer instinct." Hockey is a game of inches that's played at a mile a minute, wherein random, ridiculous, unintentional shit happens all the time, and to ignore this because you can't be bothered to think critically about the events that actually produced the outcome you so lament is folly.

The larger point is, if you actually want to understand why we are where we are (and hopefully avoid being there in the future) you have to look at HOW we got where we are, not simply that we got where we are.

I'm astonished how hard your trying to spin one shot which wasn't lucky into the focal point of why the Raps won FOUR ROUNDS and a championship even though you keep denying you are .

and yes if the shot didn't go in and the Raps lost in o/t and didn't win a title of course they would have been viewed much differently , why wouldn't they ? you don't get a parade for getting respect after losing while shaking hands

i'll put it this way , the Bills went to 4 consecutive Super Bowls , do you not believe they would have been viewed differently if Norwoods field goal went through the uprights or if they managed to win a few other times they got there ?

I also didn't give any reason why we lost again so i have no idea why you rambled on about that but i guess you needed to invent something to argue about .