Confirmed with Link: Shanahan, Dubas, Keefe all staying

[Gabriel426]

Certainly a simple way to look at it.

MM did well and arguably was one of the top players for the Leafs in the series. But he really should not made that pass in OT, there is no defending that play. It was really stupid and he should have done much better being the player he is.

 

[Captain Crunch]

There are 32 teams, so there should be that many #1 defensemen, right?

Well, considering every team usually dresses 6 dmen, you could say that. But that doesn’t mean he is a true #1 dman.

 

[Dreakmur]

Well, considering every team usually dresses 6 dmen, you could say that. But that doesn’t mean he is a true #1 dman.

When you say true #1 you really mean elite #1. He's not elite. He is a solid #1.

 

[Gabriel426]

To me a #1 Dman is the complete package, 5 v 5, PP, PK, can skate, win board battles, shoot, pass, hit and defend. Unless the player is really good at offence to the point where it compensate his defence shortcomings, like prime Karlsson and PK.
#2 Dman is either really good at defence but lack high offence ability or someone who can do all the thing but in a more supporting role.

To me Reilly is a low end #1 Dman.

Kind of like saying JT is a #1 C but not as good as AM, Mack, McD and Point.

 

[ACC1224]

MM did well and arguably was one of the top players for the Leafs in the series. But he really should not made that pass in OT, there is no defending that play. It was really stupid and he should have done much better being the player he is.

You’re going to get that with a player as creative as he is. That creativity is what makes him a 100 plus point player. Have to accept the good with the bad. You neuter that and the team is much worse.

 

[Blowfish]

You missed the biggest one,. IMO

Dubas signed too few players, to too much money $$, and as a result Leaf Nation fans now sees too few playoff games. Its really that simple !!!

Its the situation the Leafs team find themselves annually as a result of greenhorn GM overpaying his star players to build a core, that results in only regular season success, but prevents a Cup competitive team, because you can't build successful depth around the core 4 forwards that consume 1/2 your salary cap.

Its the one constant the core 4, that remains the same each and every playoff loss, and its the one constant the GM refuses to address.

So when those core 4 do not show up in a game's boxscore, its expected your $1.65 mil 1A tandem goalie or your 3rd and 4th line players all making $1.5 mil or less playing for league minimum to bail the team out. So what is Dubas solution get a different goalie and move out some depth players and go bargain bin shopping for new ones and rinse and repeat, because you can't afford to keep your Hyman and Kadri type players for solid depth due strictly to Salary Cap mismanagement. So you tinker around the edges as busy work pretending it addresses the teams TRUE problem.

But why would Dubas change and address this, when its been shown year, after year, after year, that simply making the playoffs equals job security, for the President, the GM and the coach, and the playoff results don't matter?

This nails it! How some fans refuse to acknowledge is baffling.

 

[francis246]

You missed the biggest one,. IMO

Dubas signed too few players, to too much money $$, and as a result Leaf Nation fans now sees too few playoff games. Its really that simple !!!

Its the situation the Leafs team find themselves annually as a result of greenhorn GM overpaying his star players to build a core, that results in only regular season success, but prevents a Cup competitive team, because you can't build successful depth around the core 4 forwards that consume 1/2 your salary cap.

Its the one constant the core 4, that remains the same each and every playoff loss, and its the one constant the GM refuses to address.

So when those core 4 do not show up in a game's boxscore, its expected your $1.65 mil 1A tandem goalie or your 3rd and 4th line players all making $1.5 mil or less playing for league minimum to bail the team out. So what is Dubas solution get a different goalie and move out some depth players and go bargain bin shopping for new ones and rinse and repeat, because you can't afford to keep your Hyman and Kadri type players for solid depth due strictly to Salary Cap mismanagement. So you tinker around the edges as busy work pretending it addresses the teams TRUE problem.

But why would Dubas change and address this, when its been shown year, after year, after year, that simply making the playoffs equals job security, for the President, the GM and the coach, and the playoff results don't matter?

I’m sorry how many points did Stamkos, Kucherov, Hedman, Point have in game 7? And how much does Nick Paul make? Again Mess, another moot point.

The core of the team isn’t really an issue, they’ve proven they can produce. But you need better spare parts. Tampa acquired Nick Paul as a depth forward, we acquired Colin Blackwell as ours. That right there is the problem, Dubas always reverts back to his original philosophy. He can’t help himself, small fast players who really can’t do shit or older players who aren’t effective. IE Simmonds over Perry. How about finding skilled players who are a bit bigger and actually are physical at the deadline and through UFA.

He also can’t make tough decisions for the betterment of the team. If I’m him Jake Muzzin doesn’t have a say in the matter. You sit him down and you tell him we are LTIRing him until the end of the season be ready for the playoffs. Like that extra $5 mill in cap space could have done us amazing. But no Dubas is not ruthless. Other teams are that’s why they can maximize opportunity and return at the deadline.

 

[francis246]

For me it’s Marner. He had a better playoff this year, but he got worse as the games got tougher. 2 assists in games 4 through 7 isn’t good enough. He played his worst when the games mattered most.

Nylander is frustratingly inconsistent, he doesn’t wilt under pressure like Marner. At least Nylander might show up in a big game, where it’s looking very likely Marner never will.

It’s hard to get going when every game you’re spending half a period killing penalties.

 

[francis246]

Looks like the Rangers are going to sweep the super duper awesome Tampa team. When did they start their rebuild and how many 11 million dollar players do they have;

They do have one of the highest paid forwards out there in Panarin.

 

[Mess]

I’m sorry how many points did Stamkos, Kucherov, Hedman, Point have in game 7? And how much does Nick Paul make? Again Mess, another moot point.

Tampa Bay's highest paid player is their Conn Smythe playoff MVP goalie Vasilevskiy, and its his goal to keep the opposition off the scoresheet. In fact he has posted 6 shutouts in his last 7 series winning games, inc;luding both deciding Stanley Cup games. Tampa doesn't need run support from their big guns, because their biggest one their goalie wins them their games. Kucherov lead the playoffs in points last year 2 years and Point lead them in goals both times so their stars still did their parts also.

Its not a moot point.

Leafs can't afford a real goalie as Campbell only makes $1.65 mil and plays part-time as a 1A tandem and you know why that is because Leafs have too many $11 mil forwards preventing Leafs from investing in the MOST important position in hockey, because good teams are built from the goalie out?

Its the very same reason Leafs lost to Montreal last year, including blowing a 3-1 series lead, because Carey Price and his $10 mil cap carried them all the way to the SCF series.

Leaf Nation calls this "Being out-Goalied", because they have so much invested in high-priced forwards.. However if they connect the dots they should understand why Leafs can't afford one of these All-star goalies themselves and understand their "Being Salary Cap Mismanaged".

Its not about needing and expecting a bargain bin forward, and bargain bin netminding to carry the ball when Leafs stars don't show up in big games. That's a red herring, its a flawed built team, because of cap mismanagement that forces the players making the least $$$, expected to come through in the clutch. Everyone knows your best players have to be your best players and that is your most expensive ones, that are the ones that need to be those to be successful, in a Salary Cap World.

 

[Captain Crunch]

When you say true #1 you really mean elite #1. He's not elite. He is a solid #1.

You’re probably right. If he was even a little bit better defensively I would agree with you.

 

[francis246]

Tampa Bay's highest paid player is their Conn Smythe goalie Vasilevskiy, and its his goal to keep the opposition off the scoresheet, In fact he has posted 6 shutouts in his last 7 series winning games, inc;luding both deciding games. Tampa doesn't need run support from their big guns because their biggest one their goalie wins them their games.

Its not a moot point.

Leafs can't afford a real goalie as Campbell only makes $1.65 mil and plays part-time as a 1A tandem and you know why that is because Leafs have too many $11 mil forwards preventing Leafs from investing in the MOST important position in hockey, because good teams are built from the goalie out?

Its the very same reason Leafs lost to Montreal last year, including blowing a 3-1 series lead, because Carey Price and his $10 mil cap carried them all the way to the SCF series.

Again wrong, what do Price and Vasi have in common besides their price tag? Drafted and developed by their original club. The goaltending issue isn’t going to be solved by spending less. It can only be solved internally by drafting your own guy and developing him. You can scream and cry about the cap all you want. But the reality is the cap isn’t preventing anything.

If the leafs wanted to they would and could have acquired a goalie at the deadline. Again Dubas played this deadline relatively safe. If he had just LTIR’d Muzzin and had some balls maybe we make that move for Fluery.

Maybe if they don’t sign Ritchie and Mrazek they go after Markstrom or Kuemper. The cap really hasn’t constrained the leafs all that much. Dubas, for every good move he’s made, he has made a bad decision in a key area. They made a mistake on Mrazek but we had the money to get a goalie, let’s not fool anyone. They just picked the wrong guy.

 

[socko]

They do have one of the highest paid forwards out there in Panarin.

And their Panarin is our Tavares, which is another reason the Rangers are still in the playoffs and we are not. They spent their money wisely.

 

[francis246]

Tampa Bay's highest paid player is their Conn Smythe goalie Vasilevskiy, and its his goal to keep the opposition off the scoresheet, In fact he has posted 6 shutouts in his last 7 series winning games, inc;luding both deciding games. Tampa doesn't need run support from their big guns because their biggest one their goalie wins them their games.

Its not a moot point.

Leafs can't afford a real goalie as Campbell only makes $1.65 mil and plays part-time as a 1A tandem and you know why that is because Leafs have too many $11 mil forwards preventing Leafs from investing in the MOST important position in hockey, because good teams are built from the goalie out?

Its the very same reason Leafs lost to Montreal last year, including blowing a 3-1 series lead, because Carey Price and his $10 mil cap carried them all the way to the SCF series.

To Further my point, from 2009 to 2021 guess what all the Stanley Cup Champions have in common? A homegrown, drafted and developed goaltender that won them a cup. Only anamoly was the 2011 bruins.

And their Panarin is our Tavares, which is another reason the Rangers are still in the playoffs and we are not. They spent their money wisely.

Have you been watching the playoffs? Up until this round Panarin did f*** all. EDIT: sorry his round against PIT was decent. But he’s been just okay since. Very inconsistent

 

[socko]

Is he better than a glorified Jason Allison?

 

[francis246]

Tampa Bay's highest paid player is their Conn Smythe playoff MVP goalie Vasilevskiy, and its his goal to keep the opposition off the scoresheet. In fact he has posted 6 shutouts in his last 7 series winning games, inc;luding both deciding Stanley Cup games. Tampa doesn't need run support from their big guns, because their biggest one their goalie wins them their games. Kucherov lead the playoffs in points last year 2 years and Point lead them in goals both times so their stars still did their parts also.

Its not a moot point.

Leafs can't afford a real goalie as Campbell only makes $1.65 mil and plays part-time as a 1A tandem and you know why that is because Leafs have too many $11 mil forwards preventing Leafs from investing in the MOST important position in hockey, because good teams are built from the goalie out?

Its the very same reason Leafs lost to Montreal last year, including blowing a 3-1 series lead, because Carey Price and his $10 mil cap carried them all the way to the SCF series.

Leaf Nation calls this "Being out-Goalied", because they have so much invested in high-priced forwards.. However if they connect the dots they should understand why Leafs can't afford one of these All-star goalies themselves and understand their "Being Salary Cap Mismanaged".

Its not about needing and expecting a bargain bin forward, and bargain bin netminding to carry the ball when Leafs stars don't show up in big games. That's a red herring, its a flawed built team, because of cap mismanagement that forces the players making the least $$$, expected to come through in the clutch. Everyone knows your best players have to be your best players and that is your most expensive ones, that are the ones that need to be those to be successful, in a Salary Cap World.

To Triple down on my point

2009 - Pittsburgh Penguins/Marc Andre Fleury (Drafted 1st OVR, 2003 by PIT) [$5mill cap hit that year]
2010 - Chicago Blackhawks/Antti Niemi (Undrafted, signed in 2008 and developed in AHL) [$800k cap hit that year]
2011 - Boston Bruins/Tim Thomas (Undrafted, signed in 2005 and developed in AHL) [$5mill cap hit that year]
2012 - Los Angeles Kings/Jonathan Quick (Drafted 72nd OVR, 2005 by LA) [$1.8 mill cap hit that year]
2013 - Chicago Blackhawks/Corey Crawford (52nd OVR, 2003 by CHI) [$2.66 mill cap hit that year]
2014 - Los Angeles Kings/Jonathan Quick (Drafted 72nd OVR, 2005 by LA) [$5.8 mill cap hit that year]
2015 - Chicago Blackhawks/Corey Crawford (52nd OVR, 2003 by CHI) [$6 mill cap hit that year]
2016 - Pittsburgh Penguins/Matt Murray (Drafted 83rd OVR, 2012 by PIT) [$600k cap hit that year]
2017 - Pittsburgh Penguins/Matt Murray & Marc Andre Fleury Split (Drafted 83rd OVR, 2012 by PIT) [$600k cap hit that year]
2018 - Washington Capitals/Braden Holtby (Drafted 93rd OVR by WSH) [6.1 mill cap hit that year]
2019 - St. Louis Blues/Jordan Binnington (Drafted 88th OVR by STL) [$650k cap hit that year]
2020 - Tampa Bay Lightning/Andrei Vasilevski (Drafted 19th OVR by TB) [$3.5 mill cap hit that year]
2021 - Tampa Bay Lightning/Andrei Vasilevski (Drafted 19th OVR by TB) [$9.5 mill cap hit that year]

Just a little bit of research goes to show you, if you want to win in the playoffs you better drafted and develop a goalie or sign one with potential and allow him to grow within your system. The cap hits fluctuated each year for the goalies. It really has nothing to do with cap hit. You don't need to spend a lot to get a goalie, you need to draft and develop one and preferably win your first cup while they are on a cheaper contract before you have to extend them because it's unlikely you're going back to the finals with them.

I hate going in on people, but I think you've been fairly wrong in your last few takes and I wanted to provide proof to support my claims.

 

[Racer88]

They do have one of the highest paid forwards out there in Panarin.

I agree and I would be ok if we had only 1 or maybe 2 of the highest paid forwards in the league but to have 3………I just can’t see how it works.

 

[francis246]

I agree and I would be ok if we had only 1 or maybe 2 of the highest paid forwards in the league but to have 3………I just can’t see how it works.

Well we have 2 more years to find out! I will also hazard to say within the next few years the leafs won’t be the only club with a salary structure like ours

 

[justashadowof]

Joseph for Paul trade is a type of trade I can't imagine Dubas making. It seemed to be about tweaking certain characteristics in Tampa's bottom 6. I wonder whether Engvall for Paul might have gotten it done.

I agree and I would be ok if we had only 1 or maybe 2 of the highest paid forwards in the league but to have 3………I just can’t see how it works.

Matthews has to be getting a bit frustrated about these playoff results (at least I hope he is). Matthews looked more physically determined to win this playoffs than previous years.

 

[leafsfan5]

You’re going to get that with a player as creative as he is. That creativity is what makes him a 100 plus point player. Have to accept the good with the bad. You neuter that and the team is much worse.

It's not about neutering as much as it is getting him to use it during the right time imo

For instance, during game 6 OT he was getting way too cute with it in the offensive zone. Don't overcomplicate in that situation, just get the puck to the net whenever possible. An ugly goal still counts

 

[ACC1224]

It's not about neutering as much as it is getting him to use it during the right time imo

For instance, during game 6 OT he was getting way too cute with it in the offensive zone. Don't overcomplicate in that situation, just get the puck to the net whenever possible. An ugly goal still counts

Agreed. He’s a great player but certainly not perfect.

 

[ULF_55]

When you say true #1 you really mean elite #1. He's not elite. He is a solid #1.

Perhaps it should be, and hard to validate, 64 top defenders, where points are NOT the only criteria.

To be on topic, Dubas, via his scouting staff, is responsible to have at least two in those 64.

 

[Dreakmur]

Perhaps it should be, and hard to validate, 64 top defenders, where points are NOT the only criteria.

To be on topic, Dubas, via his scouting staff, is responsible to have at least two in those 64.

Muzzin was, but not sure he is anymore.

I've got Rielly around 20th, which is a slightly below average #1. I got Brodie at about 75, which is an elite #3. A healthy Muzzin of a year ago, I got at like 45, which is about an average #2, but the current Muzzin is closer to 75. Their top-3 is OK. If Liljegren and Sandin develop well, we could even end up with a good blueline.

 

[ULF_55]

Muzzin was, but not sure he is anymore.

I've got Rielly around 20th, which is a slightly below average #1. I got Brodie at about 75, which is an elite #3. A healthy Muzzin of a year ago, I got at like 45, which is about an average #2, but the current Muzzin is closer to 75. Their top-3 is OK. If Liljegren and Sandin develop well, we could even end up with a good blueline.

You can get away with a weaker overall defense corps, if you have a stud that can carry a disproportionate amount of the load.

The question is how many swings and misses have the Leafs scouting staff made for that player?

 

[Dreakmur]

You can get away with a weaker overall defense corps, if you have a stud that can carry a disproportionate amount of the load.

The question is how many swings and misses have the Leafs scouting staff made for that player?

The amateur scouts haven't really had many opportunities to find that player. Matthews was never a discussion. I think it would be tough to argue that they made the wrong pick with Marner, even with Hanafin, Provorov, and Werenski on the board. There weren't any good defensemen available in the Nylander draft.

Liljegren was a pick that I thought they might have found that guy - sure it was high risk, but the potential reward was huge. He's developed very differently than I thought he would, but he's looking like he might become a long-time top-4 defenseman. Sandin was as good D as you can pick late in the first, but it's too late of a pick to really expect a top pairing guy. I wanted Scneider over Amirov, but he's more of a second pair guy.