Confirmed with Link: Shanahan, Dubas, Keefe all staying

[Bomber0104]

1. Lost to better elite team
2. Lost to better elite team
3. Lost to better elite team
4. Choked, but bubble BS too
5. Super Epic Choke
6. Got epically bumblasted by the refs

Leafs in 4

 

[TheGoldenJet]

Gonna go way out on a limb and say that when coach and execs of the year votes are added up the Leafs finish lower than their standings rank more than any other team in hockey. By far.

As they well should.

 

[mikeyz]

You think that "We got respect in the handshake line" Keefe would ever do this????

THIS is the difference between a team and a coach who has that "IT" factor and wants to win and a team and a coach who doesn't.

 

[Stigma]

You think that "We got respect in the handshake line" Keefe would ever do this????

THIS is the difference between a team and a coach who has that "IT" factor and wants to win and a team and a coach who doesn't.

I was just going to comment about this absolute power move by Cooper. One simple "Paul....let's go" and Paul doesn't even say "I have to go" to the cameras. Just turns around and vanishes. It was a pure pavlovian conditioned reflex of "I must leave immediately to not upset coach". Wow.

 

[Nineteen67]

You think that "We got respect in the handshake line" Keefe would ever do this????

THIS is the difference between a team and a coach who has that "IT" factor and wants to win and a team and a coach who doesn't.

Some people hate to lose more than they love winning.

 

[Nineteen67]

I was just going to comment about this absolute power move by Cooper. One simple "Paul....let's go" and Paul doesn't even say "I have to go" to the cameras. Just turns around and vanishes. It was a pure pavlovian conditioned reflex of "I must leave immediately to not upset coach". Wow.

I don’t think it’s about upsetting the coach as much as it‘s about upsetting his teammates. TheTB leadership knows everyone has to pull the rope as hard as they can in the same direction.

 

[Mess]

Okay, so we were 3rd best defensively, and are really good offensively as well. So why are we still unable to get by the 1st round? Was it because of the core 4 (the ones Dubas will live and die with)? Was it because of Campbell, who fared quite well in the series? Was it our defence (some might argue that Liljegren rather than Holl should have been playing)? Was it the players we obtained before the season began? We better go deep in the playoffs with this core and management team sooner rather than later, because we’re starting to run out of excuses for them.

You missed the biggest one,. IMO

Dubas signed too few players, to too much money $$, and as a result Leaf Nation fans now sees too few playoff games. Its really that simple !!!

Its the situation the Leafs team find themselves annually as a result of greenhorn GM overpaying his star players to build a core, that results in only regular season success, but prevents a Cup competitive team, because you can't build successful depth around the core 4 forwards that consume 1/2 your salary cap.

Its the one constant the core 4, that remains the same each and every playoff loss, and its the one constant the GM refuses to address.

So when those core 4 do not show up in a game's boxscore, its expected your $1.65 mil 1A tandem goalie or your 3rd and 4th line players all making $1.5 mil or less playing for league minimum to bail the team out. So what is Dubas solution get a different goalie and move out some depth players and go bargain bin shopping for new ones and rinse and repeat, because you can't afford to keep your Hyman and Kadri type players for solid depth due strictly to Salary Cap mismanagement. So you tinker around the edges as busy work pretending it addresses the teams TRUE problem.

But why would Dubas change and address this, when its been shown year, after year, after year, that simply making the playoffs equals job security, for the President, the GM and the coach, and the playoff results don't matter?

 

[Trapper]

You missed the biggest one,. IMO

Dubas signed too few players, to too much money $$, and as a result Leaf Nation fans now sees too few playoff games. Its really that simple !!!

Its the situation the Leafs team find themselves annually as a result of greenhorn GM overpaying his star players to build a core, that results in only regular season success, but prevents a Cup competitive team, because you can't build successful depth around the core 4 forwards that consume 1/2 your salary cap.

Its the one constant the core 4, that remains the same each and every playoff loss, and its the one constant the GM refuses to address.

So when those core 4 do not show up in a game's boxscore, its expected your $1.65 mil 1A tandem goalie or your 3rd and 4th line players all making $1.5 mil or less playing for league minimum to bail the team out. So what is Dubas solution get a different goalie and move out some depth players and go bargain bin shopping for new ones and rinse and repeat, because you can't afford to keep your Hyman and Kadri type players for solid depth due strictly to Salary Cap mismanagement. So you tinker around the edges as busy work pretending it addresses the teams TRUE problem.

But why would Dubas change and address this, when its been shown year, after year, after year, that simply making the playoffs equals job security, for the President, the GM and the coach, and the playoff results don't matter?

Sum of the parts Mess. Just because you put a group of talent together doesn’t mean they are going to win a championship. It takes more than just skill in the core. There is an it factor.

That’s the hardest thing to recognize because nobody wants to admit there may be a problem. If the dinner is burnt it doesn’t matter how many times you change the napkins.

Why didn’t Thornton/Marleau/Pavelski ever win the Cup? Bad players? Of course not. Should they have moved a Marleau to change the dynamic back in the day? Perhaps. Did they do the same thing over and expect a different result?

 

[Captain Crunch]

You missed the biggest one,. IMO

Dubas signed too few players, to too much money $$, and as a result Leaf Nation fans now sees too few playoff games. Its really that simple !!!

Its the situation the Leafs team find themselves annually as a result of greenhorn GM overpaying his star players to build a core, that results in only regular season success, but prevents a Cup competitive team, because you can't build successful depth around the core 4 forwards that consume 1/2 your salary cap.

Its the one constant the core 4, that remains the same each and every playoff loss, and its the one constant the GM refuses to address.

So when those core 4 do not show up in a game's boxscore, its expected your $1.65 mil 1A tandem goalie or your 3rd and 4th line players all making $1.5 mil or less playing for league minimum to bail the team out. So what is Dubas solution get a different goalie and move out some depth players and go bargain bin shopping for new ones and rinse and repeat, because you can't afford to keep your Hyman and Kadri type players for solid depth due strictly to Salary Cap mismanagement. So you tinker around the edges as busy work pretending it addresses the teams TRUE problem.

But why would Dubas change and address this, when its been shown year, after year, after year, that simply making the playoffs equals job security, for the President, the GM and the coach, and the playoff results don't matter?

Exactly, Mess, couldn’t agree more. Dubas is too stubborn/arrogant to admit his biggest mistake(s).

 

[All Mod Cons]

Agreed, that Kadri trade is the reason I cannot get behind Dubas fully. I was so shocked to see a majority of people on here were really happy with the trade at the time, the idea of getting a Kadri "replacement" in Kerfoot to go along with Tyson Barrie. We just saw how another offensive minded D-man in Jake Gardiner was for us, so instead of learning from that he goes on to trade our best cost controlled asset for another one? The idea that Dubas thought adding Ceci and Barrie into our top 4 would improve our poor defence was mind boggling. Glad to see Kadri proving a lot of people wrong here.

Dubas has done some great things, but he has also made some rookie mistakes that have cost this team unfortunately. We can't afford to have a GM that is still learning on the job.

The problem is his rookie mistakes were huge. All the good he has done, is completely negated (and more) by the monumental rookie mistakes. I don't see how we recover from them.

It's like someone doing good things to their house, cut the grass, whole new paint job, new windows and doors. But the rookie mistake of setting the house on fire negates all of it.

 

[Mess]

Exactly, Mess, couldn’t agree more. Dubas is too stubborn/arrogant to admit his biggest mistake(s).

That is why Leafs need a new GM that recognizes the problem and is willing to address it, and fix the mistakes of the past !!

But as long as Shanahan is the President, then Dubas is job secure, and as long as Dubas is job secure, then Keefe is job secure and as long as the Leafs make the playoffs nothing will change.

In a results oriented business there is no accountability for playoff results in terms as far as job performance evaluation goes, which is the standard by which MOST other NHL franchises operate under.

Shanahan's record is now 0-8, Dubas 0-4 and Keefe 0-3 in playoff round #1 wins, but according the management team things are going great and right on schedule.

The majority of the Leafs fans base that wants their Leafs to desperately win in the playoffs, sees this, understand this, but unfortunately are helpless to do anything about it, because Leafs manageement plays by a different set of rules (their own self entitilement), and the playoff results simply don't matter.

So change isn't imminent, nor likely, but rather its improbable as long as this remains Status Quo.

 

[kevsh]

It would be a shame to lose a a smart and creative GM after he’s gone through the growing pains.

Shanny gave the keys to a GM who needed to go through growing pains and that GM brought in a coach who needed to go through growing pains. Which would be all good if the at the time the Leafs were bottom-feeders and facing a long, difficult rebuild.

Dubas/Keefe are both likely going to have long, successful careers, they were just brought in to lead way too early. The counter, which is perfectly fair, is that they couldn't keep either on the shelf forever (Dubas as Asst, GM, Sheldon as AHL or Leafs Asst. Coach), but in that case, I think you put the team - that is a team with a stellar, young core and rising fast - first, hire the guys that are experienced now and if you lose those two, so be it.

 

[hockeyes]

Dubas/Keefe are both likely going to have long, successful careers, they were just brought in to lead way too early. The counter, which is perfectly fair, is that they couldn't keep either on the shelf forever (Dubas as Asst, GM, Sheldon as AHL or Leafs Asst. Coach), but in that case, I think you put the team - that is a team with a stellar, young core and rising fast - first, hire the guys that are experienced now and if you lose those two, so be it.

Why? They have done nothing but shit the bed at this level, who is to say anyone will gamble their organizations and give them another chance unless they fluke something off next year? This idea that they forced their way to the top through overwhelming ability needs to die, they are talkers and know who's ass to kiss and the Leafs are NOT lucky to have them.

 

[Captain Crunch]

That is why Leafs need a new GM that recognizes the problem and is willing to address it, and fix the mistakes of the past !!

But as long as Shanahan is the President, then Dubas is job secure, and as long as Dubas is job secure, then Keefe is job secure and as long as the Leafs make the playoffs nothing will change.

In a results oriented business there is no accountability for playoff results in terms as far as job performance evaluation goes, which is the standard by which MOST other NHL franchises operate under.

Shanahan's record is now 0-8, Dubas 0-4 and Keefe 0-3 in playoff round #1 wins, but according the management team things are going great and right on schedule.

The majority of the Leafs fans base that wants their Leafs to desperately win in the playoffs, sees this, understand this, but unfortunately are helpless to do anything about it, because Leafs manageement plays by a different set of rules (their own self entitilement), and the playoff results simply don't matter.

So change isn't imminent, nor likely, but rather its improbable as long as this remains Status Quo.

Definitely, and as long as they’re making money, it won’t change. Isn’t Leafs’ merchandise the overall #1 in NHL sales?
I’ve said it all along, with 4 players, all forwards, taking up half the cap, this team will always be lacking in acquiring the actual depth pieces you need to go deep into the playoffs, let alone winning a round.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

I think you'd have a hard time trying to argue that either one of IQ or compete is more important. Those are two of the absolute most important aspects of an elite hockey player.

Outside the core 4, we have far too many forwards who lack BOTH of those vital traits. I don't think many would argue that our depth hasn't lacked the compete level that is important, but how many would you describe as high IQ?

It seems that management is always going after high IQ players when they draft. It's pretty much the same line every year except last year with Knies when they say "We don't care that they are not prototypical NHL sized players because they have so much skill and a high IQ that we fell they can play" ...The big glaring flaw in the talent and IQ>>>size and compete is if you keep trying to get a guy who can max out as a smaller player on the 1st line and he doesn't make it...he is useless to us. You can't put him on the 3rd or 4th line and tell them to bang and crash since we know now that they can't score like we thought. This is why we can't really play Robertson on anything but the top 6 because he is too small to be effective elsewhere. If Knies turns out to be less than what we had hoped for...he can still most likely play on the 3rd and 4th because of his size and skating along with his willingness to hit. You can't say that about almost any other prospect. Is Abruzzeze going to wow you on the 4th line if he can't make the top 9? I don't think so.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Looks like the Rangers are going to sweep the super duper awesome Tampa team. When did they start their rebuild and how many 11 million dollar players do they have;

I think NYR are really going to dread letting Jeff Gorton go. His team (for all intents and purposes) is looking really good and they semi-whiffed on Lafrienier and Kakko at the top of the draft, but are still really good. He is going to turn Montreal around pretty quickly....sigh...I would have taken him last summer when he was let go from NY over Dubas.

 

[Racer88]

I was just going to comment about this absolute power move by Cooper. One simple "Paul....let's go" and Paul doesn't even say "I have to go" to the cameras. Just turns around and vanishes. It was a pure pavlovian conditioned reflex of "I must leave immediately to not upset coach". Wow.

Totally something we lack

 

[Gary Nylund]

Sum of the parts Mess. Just because you put a group of talent together doesn’t mean they are going to win a championship. It takes more than just skill in the core. There is an it factor.

That’s the hardest thing to recognize because nobody wants to admit there may be a problem. If the dinner is burnt it doesn’t matter how many times you change the napkins.

Why didn’t Thornton/Marleau/Pavelski ever win the Cup? Bad players? Of course not. Should they have moved a Marleau to change the dynamic back in the day? Perhaps. Did they do the same thing over and expect a different result?

The it factor is hard to recognize even if you admit there's a problem. If anyone thinks it's easy, they can tell us which are the players on our roster that need to be moved and which ones we need to keep. It's very hard to identify and what happens is when titles are won, the players get the it label, that's pretty much it.

I have been talking about the it factor for years and I've been asking for ideas on why is it that we always fade away at the end of a playoff series. Outscored 11-2 in our last 3 game 7's and 4-0 in the 3rd period the year before that.- Nobody had any answers but yeah, I was wondering about the it factor but nobody could put their finger on it.

It always sucks to lose but this season was the first time since the WSH series where I can say that the team played hard until the bitter end. Because of that, I'm less concerned about the it factor than I was. I was surprised when no major changes were made after losing to MTL but after this season, giving it another shot seems reasonable. Hard to see it going beyond one more year though. And as I've said a number of times, I'd be asking Dubas some tough questions today and if I didn't like the answers, I'd move on from him right away.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

The it factor is hard to recognize even if you admit there's a problem. If anyone thinks it's easy, they can tell us which are the players on our roster that need to be moved and which ones we need to keep. It's very hard to identify and what happens is when titles are won, the players get the it label, that's pretty much it.

I have been talking about the it factor for years and I've been asking for ideas on why is it that we always fade away at the end of a playoff series. Outscored 11-2 in our last 3 game 7's and 4-0 in the 3rd period the year before that.- Nobody had any answers but yeah, I was wondering about the it factor but nobody could put their finger on it.

It always sucks to lose but this season was the first time since the WSH series where I can say that the team played hard until the bitter end. Because of that, I'm less concerned about the it factor than I was. I was surprised when no major changes were made after losing to MTL but after this season, giving it another shot seems reasonable. Hard to see it going beyond one more year though. And as I've said a number of times, I'd be asking Dubas some tough questions today and if I didn't like the answers, I'd move on from him right away.

I agree it's very hard to pinpoint the "It" factor. But a pretty good substitution would be compete and desperation. Did you feel we ever played with desperation when were not down a goal or 2? It seems that we are like water always looking for the path of least resistance and that's why you get game 2 and 4 along with 6. The players on the first playoff team against Washington had that desperation...loads of it...we just kept coming at them and forced most games to overtime. What happened to them? Did they believe they were so good when the got JT that they didn't have to try as hard? beats me...but something happened.

 

[Dreakmur]

The it factor is hard to recognize even if you admit there's a problem. If anyone thinks it's easy, they can tell us which are the players on our roster that need to be moved and which ones we need to keep. It's very hard to identify and what happens is when titles are won, the players get the it label, that's pretty much it.

I have been talking about the it factor for years and I've been asking for ideas on why is it that we always fade away at the end of a playoff series. Outscored 11-2 in our last 3 game 7's and 4-0 in the 3rd period the year before that.- Nobody had any answers but yeah, I was wondering about the it factor but nobody could put their finger on it.

It always sucks to lose but this season was the first time since the WSH series where I can say that the team played hard until the bitter end. Because of that, I'm less concerned about the it factor than I was. I was surprised when no major changes were made after losing to MTL but after this season, giving it another shot seems reasonable. Hard to see it going beyond one more year though. And as I've said a number of times, I'd be asking Dubas some tough questions today and if I didn't like the answers, I'd move on from him right away.

For me it’s Marner. He had a better playoff this year, but he got worse as the games got tougher. 2 assists in games 4 through 7 isn’t good enough. He played his worst when the games mattered most.

Nylander is frustratingly inconsistent, he doesn’t wilt under pressure like Marner. At least Nylander might show up in a big game, where it’s looking very likely Marner never will.

 

[Kalaish26]

But it wasn't just 3 years of Kadri for 1 year of Barrie. It was 3 years of Kadri for 4 years of Kerfoot and 1 year of Barrie at 50% retention. I think people undervalue the package we got back, and overvalue what Kadri - as a middle-six below average defensive player coming off a disappointing 44 point season and 2 consecutive playoff suspensions - was actually worth around the league.

I can definitely see where you are coming from, but I'm going to leave it off with this. You have 2 relatively new GMs in Sakic & Dubas. You have one GM in Sakic who is still trying to build a contending team that traded Barrie (with Kerfoot who I believe was playing top 6 minutes) at peak value. An offensive defensemen coming off a career year playing 24 minutes a night who they knew would not be able to resign him after his contract expires in a year. Then we have Kadri who according to you his value was overvalued that summer because he was coming off a disappointing 44 point season (despite playing on the THIRD line and having back to back 30 goal seasons the past 2) and 2 playoff suspensions so his value might have been diminished a bit. So we Sakic maximizing his player's trade value (who btw Barrie has never matched his COL numbers since being traded) vs Dubas trading Kadri when his value would have not been as high. This is excluding Kerfoot's disappointing production in his first 2 seasons with us. Either way you look at it, it was a terrible move by Dubas, then and now.

 

[ShaneFalco]

For me it’s Marner. He had a better playoff this year, but he got worse as the games got tougher. 2 assists in games 4 through 7 isn’t good enough. He played his worst when the games mattered most.

Nylander is frustratingly inconsistent, he doesn’t wilt under pressure like Marner. At least Nylander might show up in a big game, where it’s looking very likely Marner never will.

The tighter the checking the more ineffective he is. For 11 mill

 

[Gary Nylund]

For me it’s Marner. He had a better playoff this year, but he got worse as the games got tougher. 2 assists in games 4 through 7 isn’t good enough. He played his worst when the games mattered most.

Nylander is frustratingly inconsistent, he doesn’t wilt under pressure like Marner. At least Nylander might show up in a big game, where it’s looking very likely Marner never will.

I dunno, I thought Marner played well. 2 assists in 4 games doesn't look great but what can I say, I thought he played well. Even game 7, from what I remember he was playing his ass off from start to finish, and just didn't get rewarded for it on the scoreboard.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I agree it's very hard to pinpoint the "It" factor. But a pretty good substitution would be compete and desperation. Did you feel we ever played with desperation when were not down a goal or 2? It seems that we are like water always looking for the path of least resistance and that's why you get game 2 and 4 along with 6. The players on the first playoff team against Washington had that desperation...loads of it...we just kept coming at them and forced most games to overtime. What happened to them? Did they believe they were so good when the got JT that they didn't have to try as hard? beats me...but something happened.

Good question. I've been saying that this year was different, they played so much better but ... maybe you're right and they didn't quite have that level of desperation that you need to have to win championships. It's so hard to say, so hard to measure so that's the best answer I can give - maybe you're right, I just can't say for sure. Maybe this same group comes out next year and plays with that little bit extra? Or maybe they just need better goaltending, f***ed if I know.

 

[Canadian Finn]

I dunno, I thought Marner played well. 2 assists in 4 games doesn't look great but what can I say, I thought he played well. Even game 7, from what I remember he was playing his ass off from start to finish, and just didn't get rewarded for it on the scoreboard.

if game 7 was marner "playing his ass off" that's not good.

He was virtually invisible in game 7.

If that's him playing his ass off.....well.

You are probably right - he likely was.