Confirmed with Link: Shanahan, Dubas, Keefe all staying

[Gabriel426]

Bergeron it is then!

Was thinking Berge and Malkin, lol

 

[Stephen]

The second wave is the one we need tight now IMO and it's one of the reasons I think we may need to go in "lighter" on depth than a lot of people want. We need to elevate guys like Knies, Robertson, Sandin, Lilj into regular roles and decrease the focus on guys like Lub, Holl, Kase, etc...

I'd also say we're closer to Trotz era than Boudreau at this point.

A lot of these cup winners have also had a down year which caused some sell offs. We haven't, but I won't be surprised if there's one in the near 2-3 years.

I don't mind a healthy sell off scenario at all, but it has to be done on the stealth and juggled with the Auston Matthews re-signing. Maybe the reason they went business as usual is because you don't want the franchise to appear in crisis so you can frame your retool in a "nothing to see here" way.

I outlined in the Kapanen Method that we need to remove a couple of middle class salaries, obtain pure futures and clear cap and just re-spend it. Replenish the pick and farm pipeline and go shopping. So that would be a proactive sell off without waiting for the crisis in the standings first.

Right now we have Knies waiting in the next 1-2 years. He seems to check all the boxes. Out of the remaining Robertson, Sandin, Liljegren, Abruzzese, Niemela and hopefully Amirov one day, I'm not sure all of them fit our pro level needs that well, so this might require an edit.

The thing that frustrates me a bit is we go through these learning adventures but we can't keep a lot of the guys who learned the hard way. So now Hyman is scoring big playoff goals in Edmonton, and soon we'll see half the support cast flushed out, having a new crop of rookies to learn on the job.

 

[keonsbitterness]

The Kapanen Method sounds like a new form of birth control.

 

[justashadowof]

Leafs' management have progressed past putting on a performance aping the disappointment of their fans. They're now acting like an untouchable monarchy. It's all the rage in the 2020's for corporations to condescend to its customers, tell them how to think and feel all while boasting their own exalted status as virtuous corporate citizens.

Shanahan's proud? The f***ing gall. Gimme me a break. The dude's lucky as hell to come along when circumstances plopped 3 young star forwards into his lap. It would take gross incompetence to not produce a playoff qualifying NHL team with that headstart.

 

[3blizzard4]

I really think we’ve created a cozy and cuddly environment, and now we’re satisfied with trying hard and almost. Loveable losers.

I think it’s very intentional. I remember talk during the tank or within that period of “making it safe for players here”. Controlling media availability and such. These things have deep roots. I’m surprised Dubas hasn’t implemented a “no swear zone” yet.

 

[Lightsol]

I'm trying to come up with some league wide comparisons of where the Leafs are as a regular season powerhouse and playoff doormat, and I'm 2010s Anaheim Ducks for the most part, the San Jose Sharks year after year, maybe the Winnipeg Jets. There's definitely others so this isn't exhaustive.

These management groups just don't really get fired all that often. It's just business as usual for X number of years, every season gets you to the dance, chance to do damage. Not satisfying, but going nuclear in the board room and making massive roster change mandates also isn't the road to building a healthy franchise.

Nope, and THIS fanbase of all f***ing fanbases should know that, because "blow it up and start over" has been the repeated reaction of this team since the 60's when they don't win as fast as people think they should.

 

[keonsbitterness]

I think it’s very intentional. I remember talk during the tank or within that period of “making it safe for players here”. Controlling media availability and such. These things have deep roots. I’m surprised Dubas hasn’t implemented a “no swear zone” yet.

That was something Babcock said a lot, for what it's worth.

 

[ShaneFalco]

I think it’s very intentional. I remember talk during the tank or within that period of “making it safe for players here”. Controlling media availability and such. These things have deep roots. I’m surprised Dubas hasn’t implemented a “no swear zone” yet.

No hurt feelings zone

 

[Dreakmur]

I noted something similar in another thread in that Shanahan saw (ie he would have heard about the decisions made or not made prior to his arrival) the net gain of persevering through adversity while in Detroit.

Sitting and learning in that Bowman led Red Wing room surely formed much of what some wrongly believe is egoism on Shanahan’s part.

But in reality I think it’s a kind of selflessness to the painful but necessary process.

What adversity did Shanahan preserve through in Detroit? He was traded there in 1997. Actually, quite a few people believe it was his leadership that pushed Detroit over the hump rather than Yzerman’s.

 

[thinkblue]

Leafs' management have progressed past putting on a performance aping the disappointment of their fans. They're now acting like an untouchable monarchy. It's all the rage in the 2020's for corporations to condescend to its customers, tell them how to think and feel all while boasting their own exalted status as virtuous corporate citizens.

Shanahan's proud? The f***ing gall. Gimme me a break. The dude's lucky as hell to come along when circumstances plopped 3 young star forwards into his lap. It would take gross incompetence to not produce a playoff qualifying NHL team with that headstart.

The circumstances he helped create.

 

[Stephen]

I noted something similar in another thread in that Shanahan saw (ie he would have heard about the decisions made or not made prior to his arrival) the net gain of persevering through adversity while in Detroit.

Sitting and learning in that Bowman led Red Wing room surely formed much of what some wrongly believe is egoism on Shanahan’s part.

But in reality I think it’s a kind of selflessness to the painful but necessary process.

There are also examples like the 2000s Ottawa Senators who never put it together to win a title, so consistent playoff underachieving and failure doesn't always produce Tampa or Detroit in the end.

 

[ITM]

What adversity did Shanahan preserve through in Detroit? He was traded there in 1997. Actually, quite a few people believe it was his leadership that pushed Detroit over the hump rather than Yzerman’s.

Little himself with Detroit apart from his own contribution. But he would have been repeatedly exposed to others who did persevere in Detroit over the years, Yzerman in particular. I said:

"
"...(ie he would have heard about the decisions made or not made prior to his arrival)...Sitting and learning in that Bowman led Red Wing room surely formed much of what some wrongly believe is egoism on Shanahan’s part."

Well, I grew up in the area and was exposed to Wings as much as I was exposed to the Leafs, even met Bowman and talked a bit with him. Physicality was certainly brought by Shanahan with his skill. But that kind of toughness was already there in Lapointe, McCarty, Probert, Primeau...Chaisson...Konstantinov.

But the switch began with Yzerman moving from 150+ point player to a Captain leading by example with better defense. Then there's the buffet of HOF pieces not the least of which was Igor Larionov.

Was talking about goaltending elsewhere and certainly acquiring Mike Vernon was a big step.

Shanahan's example and his distinct power forward contribution, absolutely, very important. But, the number of pieces they were able to add, to their core, has to be seen as "the push". It was as a collective if any championship enterprise ever was.

 

[ITM]

There are also examples like the 2000s Ottawa Senators who never put it together to win a title, so consistent playoff underachieving and failure doesn't always produce Tampa or Detroit in the end.

I think we're in danger of being those Senators. They mismanaged the pieces they had and failed to identify goaltending except in the one year they had Hasek.

I mean...Zdeno Chara...ouch.

 

[Dreakmur]

Little himself with Detroit apart from his own contribution. But he would have been repeatedly exposed to others who did persevere in Detroit over the years, Yzerman in particular. I said:

"
"...(ie he would have heard about the decisions made or not made prior to his arrival)...Sitting and learning in that Bowman led Red Wing room surely formed much of what some wrongly believe is egoism on Shanahan’s part."

Well, I grew up in the area and was exposed to Wings as much as I was exposed to the Leafs, even met Bowman and talked a bit with him. Physicality was certainly brought by Shanahan with his skill. But that kind of toughness was already there in Lapointe, McCarty, Probert, Primeau...Chaisson...Konstantinov.

But the switch began with Yzerman moving from 150+ point player to a Captain leading by example with better defense. Then there's the buffet of HOF pieces not the least of which was Igor Larionov.

Was talking about goaltending elsewhere and certainly acquiring Mike Vernon was a big step.

Shanahan's example and his distinct power forward contribution, absolutely, very important. But, the number of pieces they were able to add, to their core, has to be seen as "the push". It was as a collective if any championship enterprise ever was.

I said Shanahan's leadership, not his toughness.

 

[BackPassChampions]

For hypothetical conversation, let’s say Dubas and Shanahan were fired this year.

Who are their replacements?

Are there even any viable options? Could this be part of the reason why they’re still here?

 

[LonnyBohonos]

Not sure if anyone share this yet, but propaganda at its finest. Sportsnet = Rogers = MLSE owners

Taking a page straight out of american politics.
Where did they come up with this LeafsNation online "optimism"?





Was there supposed to be any sort of sarcasm in this that I hope I missed.

I get it, the team is miles better than before AM was drafted. But still, this is a results driven industry. Another first round loss is another first round loss.... Do something (stick poking)

 

[ITM]

I said Shanahan's leadership, not his toughness.

Right and I'm qualifying what his leadership brought as the game's premier power forward in the midst of other very special pieces, without which it's unlikely Detroit wins those Cups.

In a conversation with Scotty Bowman he couldn't praise Martin Lapointe enough. Or Igor Larionov and The Russian Five. That was a unique weapon only on Detroit and absolutely a game changer. Sergei Fedorov was viewed as maybe Detroit's most talented player and it's best playoff performer. Then there's Vladdy, who more so than Lidstrom before the accident was regarded as Detroit's best defenseman.

Are you saying Shanahan's leadership was separate from the power forward game he played? What do you mean by "leadership" apart from Shanahan's ability to score, hit and fight?

 

[Dreakmur]

Right and I'm qualifying what his leadership brought as the game's premier power forward in the midst of other very special pieces, without which it's unlikely Detroit wins those Cups.

In a conversation with Scotty Bowman he couldn't praise Martin Lapointe enough. Or Igor Larionov and The Russian Five. That was a unique weapon only on Detroit and absolutely a game changer. Sergei Fedorov was viewed as maybe Detroit's most talented player and it's best playoff performer. Then there's Vladdy, who more so than Lidstrom before the accident was regarded as Detroit's best defenseman.

Are you saying Shanahan's leadership was separate from the power forward game he played? What do you mean by "leadership" apart from Shanahan's ability to score, hit and fight?

Yes, I'm saying leadership is separate from on-ice play. The main attribute of a good leader is that he makes the people around him better. From what I understand, Shanahan brought previously lacking intensity and accountability to the dressing room.

 

[LonnyBohonos]

I understand the whole "but who out there is an upgrade on who we have now?", and frankly a year or two ago I would've had the same thoughts.

But in my mind, Shanahan, Dubas & Keefe are all replaceable today. All mid-tier, maybe mid-to-upper tier in their respective roles. There are a handful of guys out there who are qualified to take on these jobs. Its a results driven business and to fail advancing past the 1st round is a failure. Period. Mid April we were ALL saying how the regular season success was POINTLESS if we lost in the 1st round. And here we are (but with newfound respect in the handshake line). I get it, this team improved a ton from where we were pre-AM to now. But new voices, new leadership is needed. Shuffling the chairs on the Titanic wont cut it anymore. I believe many people underestimate the effect a new voice/direction has on pro athletes, behind the bench especially.

The other thing is management & coaching is not something us armchair GMs can fairly assess like we do with players. These are leadership positions with so many attributes that us fans don't get to sense first hand. Most guys were just another hire, coming in, doing their job and finding success with their teams.

 

[ShaneFalco]

I understand the whole "but who out there is an upgrade on who we have now?", and frankly a year or two ago I would've had the same thoughts.

But in my mind, Shanahan, Dubas & Keefe are all replaceable today. All mid-tier, maybe mid-to-upper tier in their respective roles. There are a handful of guys out there who are qualified to take on these jobs. Its a results driven business and to fail advancing past the 1st round is a failure. Period. Mid April we were ALL saying how the regular season success was POINTLESS if we lost in the 1st round. And here we are (but with newfound respect in the handshake line). I get it, this team improved a ton from where we were pre-AM to now. But new voices, new leadership is needed. Shuffling the chairs on the Titanic wont cut it anymore. I believe many people underestimate the effect a new voice/direction has on pro athletes, behind the bench especially.

The other thing is management & coaching is not something us armchair GMs can fairly assess like we do with players. These are leadership positions with so many attributes that us fans don't get to sense first hand. Most guys were just another hire, coming in, doing their job and finding success with their teams.

What is the message sent to the team when management isnt held accountable

 

[keonsbitterness]

What is the message sent to the team when management isnt held accountable

Not much unless the players really hate them. Management is ownership's responsibility.

 

[Buds17]

For hypothetical conversation, let’s say Dubas and Shanahan were fired this year.

Who are their replacements?

Are there even any viable options? Could this be part of the reason why they’re still here?

This depends upon whether or not one viewed Shanahan and/or Dubas as viable candidates when either was brought in here? They arguably still deserve to be here because the team hasn't regressed under their watch. At the same time, the team's lack of progression during the same time frame arguably makes either or both of them fair game for criticism.

 

[CelticDruid]

What is the message sent to the team when management isnt held accountable

The message is "15 more years of Keefe"

15 more years of Russian roulette dumpster diving.

When are they going to take the training wheels off of this management group?

Keefe is not an NHL coach.
Dubas thinks Keefe is the real deal, yet even with a so called stacked roster he has failed for the third time in a row.

It's no coincidence that our PK/PP teams goes south in the waning months of the regular season.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Yes, I'm saying leadership is separate from on-ice play. The main attribute of a good leader is that he makes the people around him better. From what I understand, Shanahan brought previously lacking intensity and accountability to the dressing room.

I agree he was the biggest difference. They couldn't understand why they were not winning with all those pieces in place. I saw that Russian 5 movie and Shanny seemed to be so enamored with them that he forgot they didn't win until a good ole canadian boy showed up and rang that bell for them. It wasn't toughness...it was leadership...never quit etc.

 

[CreeksideStrangler]

going old school change of the guard... petty pieces on the ice fircw... then coach fired... thrn finally dubad... then shanny