Confirmed with Link: Shanahan, Dubas, Keefe all staying

[Zanks]

Masai is pretty much doing what Dubas wants to do.
1. Draft and develop unearth gems that were pasted by other teams due to whatever reasons but are actually good to great players. Fred, Siakam…. Who had Dubas drafted and developed that bested the system?
2. Hire a young/rookie coach that thinks outside the box and win. Nurse and Keefe. One won Championship while the other couldn’t get out of first round.
3. Bet on Superstar to lead the way. Masai always look for the truly elite stars and won’t fall into the fallacy of good players being great. Kawhi and DD. Not going name names on the Leafs.
4. Bring players in that could help the team win the Championships and build properly.
5. Most importantly, Masai identifies the problems and try to fix it instead of hoping it will sort out by itself.

To me, the Leafs need a better goalie. I love Jack and think he is too good a person to pass on but can he be count on to steal a game or two in the playoffs?
The other thing the team needs to adjust is their mentality and mental approach to the game. I think they made huge growth this past series compared to the last few years but they should have made them three seasons ago and not now. I think having a coach like Trotz will help them continue to improve. Bc I just don’t have faith in Keefe anymore to give that edge to the boys in the playoffs.
The structure of the team needs to change. They either need to find players to max JT and Willie effectiveness on two separate lines, or let JT plays with MM and have AM and Willie on separate lines…the point is AM, MM m, Willie and JT needs to not only produce for themselves but also need to make other players on their lines a lot better than their contracts.
Or just trade one or two of the 10mil plus players and Willie to restructure the team inorder to add more depth. Let’s say 32.5mil of the cap goes to Dmen and Goalies and 50mil goes to forwards. If that’s the case the first line should be 23mil, 2nd line 15mil, 3rd line 7mil and 4th line 3mil. If they can fit the big 4 under that and still be effective, great. If not, something have to give.
You look at TB and their big three forwards are around 27mil, that’s 6mil less than ours. If Leafs have that extra 6mil, they could use that and replace a current 750k player on the roster, which means 6.75mil to spend on a player. That’s another Willie’s level player.

Masai was very patient with the DD version of the team. He let Casey, DD and JV have multiple cracks at the can. Obviously, those players had more success in the playoffs then this Leafs team. That said, they also experienced more humiliating failure (swept by Wiz as higher seeded team, LeBronto).

The differences are... I think Masai actually knows what it takes to win in the playoffs... defence. Trades DD and JV for three all NBA defenders (Gasol, Kawhi and Green).

His draft picks are typically two way players with intangibles (Barnes, Siakam, OG etc.)

He wouldn't pick Marner, Nylander or Reilly (or Sandin or Liljegren or Robertson) ...that wouldn't fit his MO.

He'd be picking the Tkachuks, the Marchands and the Bergerons. He'd be looking to trade Marner for Shane Wright, Nylander for Timo Meier, get some known defenders or physical players on the team.

Big difference IMO.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Masai was very patient with the DD version of the team. He let Casey, DD and JV have multiple cracks at the can. Obviously, those players had more success in the playoffs then this Leafs team. That said, they also experienced more humiliating failure (swept by Wiz as higher seeded team, LeBronto).

The differences are... I think Masai actually knows what it takes to win in the playoffs... defence. Trades DD and JV for three all NBA defenders (Gasol, Kawhi and Green).

His draft picks are typically two way players with intangibles (Barnes, Siakam, OG etc.)

He wouldn't pick Marner, Nylander or Reilly (or Sandin or Liljegren or Robertson) ...that wouldn't fit his MO.

He'd be picking the Tkachuks, the Marchands and the Bergerons. He'd be looking to trade Marner for Shane Wright, Nylander for Timo Meier, get some known defenders or physical players on the team.

Big difference IMO.

I didn't know the Leafs played basketball.

Defense has arguably been the least of the Leafs' worries the past few playoffs, and Masai also drafts guys who are smaller than average and very fast/athletic. Being able to score off of the fast break and with skilled basketball plays (rather than just kicking it inside all of the time) is also very important for how they play.

There are certain things that can translate between sports, but hockey is drastically different than basketball in a variety of ways... And in the ways where you could maybe say it is similar, the Leafs are very similar in structure as the Raptors.

 

[myleafs]

I have the first two on ignore but they're probably busy planning the parades. One for our "best month ever" and one for our "best season ever".

Remember all that bragging about what an elite team we have? Wasn't November awesome?

Dont forget the we got more respect in the handshake line parade

 

[Zanks]

I didn't know the Leafs played basketball.

Defense has arguably been the least of the Leafs' worries the past few playoffs, and Masai also drafts guys who are smaller than average and very fast/athletic. Being able to score off of the fast break and with skilled basketball plays (rather than just kicking it inside all of the time) is also very important for how they play.

There are certain things that can translate between sports, but hockey is drastically different than basketball in a variety of ways... And in the ways where you could maybe say it is similar, the Leafs are very similar in structure as the Raptors.

Abjectly wrong.

You clearly don't know enough about basketball to make such claims.

The raps have almost never drafted someone smaller than average for their position.

The players that are small (FVV and Lowry) are known disruptors (the Marchands of the NBA). They lead the league in 'dirty' physical play, like reach in steals, slap down deflections and in Lowry's case charges taken. That's how you win basketball games in the playoffs (just watch Jimmy Butler and Marcus Smart).

If you can't see that...well then there's your problem.

Kawhi is like the basketball version of Crosby or Bergeron. Two way players. Methodical. Skilled. Physical.

Barnes is a monster physically for his position. He's can even guard C's as a wing, same with OG.
Siakam is both very long, tall, and quick, meaning he can hang with guards on the perimeter.

The NHL teams that are built like this are Vegas, Carolina, St Louis, and Florida.

Tampa has a great mix of physical offensive players, big and nimble D, and a giant f***ing grade A goalie.

 

[Gabriel426]

k

Masai was very patient with the DD version of the team. He let Casey, DD and JV have multiple cracks at the can. Obviously, those players had more success in the playoffs then this Leafs team. That said, they also experienced more humiliating failure (swept by Wiz as higher seeded team, LeBronto).

The differences are... I think Masai actually knows what it takes to win in the playoffs... defence. Trades DD and JV for three all NBA defenders (Gasol, Kawhi and Green).

His draft picks are typically two way players with intangibles (Barnes, Siakam, OG etc.)

He wouldn't pick Marner, Nylander or Reilly (or Sandin or Liljegren or Robertson) ...that wouldn't fit his MO.

He'd be picking the Tkachuks, the Marchands and the Bergerons. He'd be looking to trade Marner for Shane Wright, Nylander for Timo Meier, get some known defenders or physical players on the team.

Big difference IMO.

I would not go that far as who Masai would have picked if he is the GM of the Leafs.
I don't think Masai would be patience if the Raptors had 6 first round exits in a row, where a few times the core players did not show up at all or the coach failed to adjust.
I think the main difference in Masai and Dubas is the fact that Masai is constantly looking to improve his team chances in winning the Championships. Nobody is safe under Masai. Can't really say the same regarding Dubas.
Also Masai will openly backs his players or staffs even if it is against the League. Dubas and Shanny had not done that with refs and penalties... Having said that officials in the NBA seems to be a lot more consistent than the NHL.

I didn't know the Leafs played basketball.

Defense has arguably been the least of the Leafs' worries the past few playoffs, and Masai also drafts guys who are smaller than average and very fast/athletic. Being able to score off of the fast break and with skilled basketball plays (rather than just kicking it inside all of the time) is also very important for how they play.

There are certain things that can translate between sports, but hockey is drastically different than basketball in a variety of ways... And in the ways where you could maybe say it is similar, the Leafs are very similar in structure as the Raptors.

I think there are a couple of differences.
1. Finding either through draft or free agency someone like LeBron, Curry, Durant, Kawhi, Giannis will determine how far the team can go in playoffs. Look at past winners, I think you need to go back to the Pistons in 2014 to truly say that team didnt have a top 5-8players at that time on the team.
2. Development in NBA is a lot shorter than NHL. I think thats where Masai got creative and struck gold in Fred, Siakam and others. Where he truly understands the league in general really didn't put much stock into developing players in house and took advantages of that.
3. Movement of players in the NBA are a lot more frequent than the NHL and also the Cap is more sophisticated than the NHL.

In terms of structure, like I said in the original post. Masai is doing what Dubas wants to do with results. One thing people often overlooked, Masai been on the job long before the Raptors which means he actually got the exp to back up his ideas where as Dubas didn't. Personally, Dubas will make the big trade and I really hope he nails it or else it would be the worst trade in Leafs history which in itself is actually quite an accomplishment.

Dont forget the we got more respect in the handshake line parade

That should be quite an accomplishment bc nobody respect us before that.

Abjectly wrong.

You clearly don't know enough about basketball to make such claims.

The raps have almost never drafted someone smaller than average for their position.

The players that are small (FVV and Lowry) are known disruptors (the Marchands of the NBA). They lead the league in 'dirty' physical play, like reach in steals, slap down deflections and in Lowry's case charges taken. That's how you win basketball games in the playoffs (just watch Jimmy Butler and Marcus Smart).

If you can't see that...well then there's your problem.

Kawhi is like the basketball version of Crosby or Bergeron. Two way players. Methodical. Skilled. Physical.

Barnes is a monster physically for his position. He's can even guard C's as a wing, same with OG.
Siakam is both very long, tall, and quick, meaning he can hang with guards on the perimeter.

The NHL teams that are built like this are Vegas, Carolina, St Louis, and Florida.

Tampa has a great mix of physical offensive players, big and nimble D, and a giant f***ing grade A goalie.

The Leafs is a lot more like the GS Warriors than the Raps.

 

[myleafs]

Same result though. If the Habs didn't get an empty net goal in game 7 last year, it would've been a game 7 loss by one goal. Where is all this amazing $40 Million fire power? Where are the insane dangles or head-fakes to get open and get the goal or the assist? You know, the stuff that brings in $10-$11 million annually for some big dawgs.



We're bringing parlor tricks to a knife fight. It all looks nice and sparkley until everyone else brings their blades out and it gets real.

We're playing schoolyard rules and everyone else is back-alley rules.

Are we waiting for these 25-31 year old men to get tougher so they can break through, or are we waiting for the style of play to change in the playoffs?



When a battalion goes into a fight they don't all just grab the same machine guns and run into the fight. They have different people doing different things with differing artilery, it allows the Command different methods of attack and defense. Some might refer to this as "having a plan".



The Maple Leafs shoot bullets real well, a bunch of very skilled marksmen. But in the Playoffs other teams are bringing RPGs, tanks, air-strike, shotguns, etc. and it seems like we are refusing to utilize these options.



They keep accepting failure so it will keep happening. As a fan you might think "well this was the 2 time defending champs, super experienced, tough team - we took them the distance and we'll be better next year" and that's fine. The problem is the players, team, management and ownership has adopted this same attitude too. I can't believe the post-game and season ending pressers. No one seems pissed, no one saying 'we can't accept this result anymore'. The attitude coming across is more along the lines of "what did you expect us to do? They gave us all we can handle. We can't handle anymore".



The problem with this group is there is NO ONE affiliated with the team that refuses to lose. There has been no progress made here. Have they not been to the first round before? Have they not had a series lead before? Have they not felt the pressure of an elimination game? Have they not been to a game 7? WHAT IS the progress then? Could you chart it out?



Have they won a game 7? Or any game that actually matters? It's not that this team shrinks from adversity, but when another team wants it more, or has something more to play for, this group hasn't shown the ability to match or exceed that level. They can't dictate pace in a game like that.



There used to be a coach here with a plan and an attitude towards real championship asperations but this group got him fired because he's a meanie. Truth is they didn't like whay he had to say and tuned them out. All he was trying to tell them was what time it is in the league. What was the big deal with him & Marner, something about team or teammate work ethic? Sounds like something they SHOULD be talking about but don't want to hurt anyones feelings so there's no ackwardness in training camp next year.



All the things said about Mike Babcock personally, whatever. Even Franzen said he's a fantastic coach, one of the most prepared guys ever, after saying he's one of the worst as a person. Well, I don't care about him as a person. These guys aren't here to foster friendships are they? I don't go to work looking to make new best friends. People were mortified that Babcock was a hard ass so they brought in one of Heaven's most precious angels in Saint Sheldon Keefe.



Well, everyone seems like good friends in the locker room still, so there's that! They all really believe in each other in there, the belief is as strong as ever and with that kind of power the *sky is the limit.





*=Round 1 GM 7 loss

You had me right up until the Babs stuff. There is so much I hated about the way Babs coached...don't get me started on his personality. He sucked the life out of the game for me with the 1500 failed stretch passes a game and his weird decisions....ie Marleau out at the end of the game while down because you know it was his turn etc etc etc. The leafs were going nowhere with him at the helm. The team is better offensively and defensively now than when he was around. However there is something lacking that is needed to advance...change is needed and sometimes change for the sake of change is needed. The question is Dubas prepared to do whatever that is. Doing nothing is not an option. Fiddling around the edges I don't think does it.

 

[Rob]

I don't see how any serious progress can be made without moving one of the big 4. The cap space is required in order to make those changes.

 

[Stamkos4life]

It is 6 years in a row of 1st round losses but year #1 the Leafs lost to Washington in 6 games so there wasn't a winner take all series game as Leafs never had a opportunity to get to a series wining game.

So only the last 5 have set a new record in sports.

Thanks for explaining that!

 

[myleafs]

Is Dubas too loyal? What kind of culture have we created? Is there accountability? Are we loveable losers? What is the sound of one hand clapping?

yes....no...wait...yes...no.....errr...i dunno

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

i think you are downplaying an athlete's ego especially considering he is the one who decided to come here.

Every athlete gets humbled at some point. Happens pretty quick when you aren't playing in the show anymore and have no other options.

 

[3blizzard4]

On the Fan590 someone gave the Leafs anology but substituted the Leafs to a prime city NBA team.

Asked if six years in a row without a first round win with all star players on your squad in their prime making top dollar and nothing happens? no change? Instead votes of confidence are handed about? Only in small markets.

GM and coach have excellent PR in what is becoming a soft media market

TV and newspapers have already forgotten about the Leafs. Sports radio will soon follow suit. All
The eye balls and ears will be tuning in October in full force.

No pressure. Ticket sales and jersey sales and ad revenue will be same if not more next season. Why did something that’s not broken?

 

[PromisedLand]

 

[Zanks]

I would not go that far as who Masai would have picked if he is the GM of the Leafs.
I don't think Masai would be patience if the Raptors had 6 first round exits in a row, where a few times the core players did not show up at all or the coach failed to adjust.
I think the main difference in Masai and Dubas is the fact that Masai is constantly looking to improve his team chances in winning the Championships. Nobody is safe under Masai. Can't really say the same regarding Dubas.
Also Masai will openly backs his players or staffs even if it is against the League. Dubas and Shanny had not done that with refs and penalties... Having said that officials in the NBA seems to be a lot more consistent than the NHL.



I think there are a couple of differences.
1. Finding either through draft or free agency someone like LeBron, Curry, Durant, Kawhi, Giannis will determine how far the team can go in playoffs. Look at past winners, I think you need to go back to the Pistons in 2014 to truly say that team didnt have a top 5-8players at that time on the team.
2. Development in NBA is a lot shorter than NHL. I think thats where Masai got creative and struck gold in Fred, Siakam and others. Where he truly understands the league in general really didn't put much stock into developing players in house and took advantages of that.
3. Movement of players in the NBA are a lot more frequent than the NHL and also the Cap is more sophisticated than the NHL.

In terms of structure, like I said in the original post. Masai is doing what Dubas wants to do with results. One thing people often overlooked, Masai been on the job long before the Raptors which means he actually got the exp to back up his ideas where as Dubas didn't. Personally, Dubas will make the big trade and I really hope he nails it or else it would be the worst trade in Leafs history which in itself is actually quite an accomplishment.


That should be quite an accomplishment bc nobody respect us before that.


The Leafs is a lot more like the GS Warriors than the Raps.

I think the Leafs and GS parallel is pretty apt.

The one issue is the Leafs don't have a Draymond Green ( a gritty, former Defensive player of the year).

When Draymond isn't playing, the Warriors are one dimensional, and lose quite a bit. Without him, they wouldn't win in the playoffs. He's a defensive anchor. He gets to play 80% of the game too.

 

[2 Slick]

Working around the edges hasn't done anything for this team in six years, how is doing it for a seventh year in a row going to make them magically better in the first round? Trading Kerfoot and Holl would be nice, but it's nothing monumental, nothing that will move the needle. They don't even have a starting or back-up goaltender for next season.

The regular season progress that so many use as the benchmark as progress will suffer greatly next season compared to this season, you can quote me on that one, as there's no chance this version of the Leafs duplicate that season. They did that with .945% from Campbell for 7-8 weeks. Then they scored second most goals in the NHL, every one on the roster had career years almost.

So, all this talk about progress is diminished when you no longer have any goaltenders, some of your depth players like Mikheyev are UFAs and won't be back.

So, where is this big shift in progress going to come from? I didn't see it from Matthews, Marner, Nylander or Tavares in game 7. How many goals did those 4 have when the game mattered most? Zero.

You can put lipstick on it again, but it's still the same, but will be less glamorous next season.

Not buying into this status quo bullshit that many others are.

 

[Bomber0104]

Hard to shut down an Old Boys Club even though the only members are Keefe, Dubas and Shanahan. I'd like to see what goes on behind closed doors...on second thought...maybe not.

For all the negativity the classic "old boys club" has amongst the Dubas fanclub, it sure seems like Dubas is trying his best to create his very own.

The difference being of course the "old boys club" pretty much always wins in this league whereas Dubas' little Mickey Mouse crew doesn't win anything except respect in the handshake line.

One thing the "old boys club" does well is they actually care about results and are quick to respond to removing losers from the organization.

If that were the case in Toronto, all of Shanahan/Dubas/Keefe and half the team would have been given pink slips years ago.

 

[capfit9]

Every athlete gets humbled at some point. Happens pretty quick when you aren't playing in the show anymore and have no other options.

guess what, that's under his control cause the Leafs can't afford to send him down and have his around $2.5M on their cap. this of course is assuming that they can't find a taker for him which will not be easy to say the least.

 

[Daisy Jane]

I just find it hilarious that when the leafs were legit being mocked and belittled by players in the league for how they played, people were pissed off, and now the 2x stanley cup champions said this was one of their hardest series, it legit could go either way,, it was a hard win for them [ergo: the leafs played them extremely hard], people are getting pissed off that is something to off of.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

guess what, that's under his control cause the Leafs can't afford to send him down and have his around $2.5M on their cap. this of course is assuming that they can't find a taker for him which will not be easy to say the least.

He already passed through waivers this year and played on the Marlies. Like I said, if there is a scenario where the Leafs have a trade offer from say Buffalo and we retain 50% or he gets waived and goes back down to the Marlies. Which one do you think he takes?

The Leafs don't have to play him if he is not performing. He doesn't have that much control.

 

[yubbers]

I just find it hilarious that when the leafs were legit being mocked and belittled by players in the league for how they played, people were pissed off, and now the 2x stanley cup champions said this was one of their hardest series, it legit could go either way,, it was a hard win for them [ergo: the leafs played them extremely hard], people are getting pissed off that is something to off of.

Maybe 4 years ago. But not this deep into the teams build. Just get it done. The time for moral victories has passed. We're running out of time.

 

[Bomber0104]

Maybe 4 years ago. But not this deep into the teams build. Just get it done. The time for moral victories has passed. We're running out of time.

Precisely.

Washington said the same respectful sorts of things when they beat the Leafs in 2017.

Five playoff series later and it sounds downright patronizing.

We've progressed absolutely no further over the course of 6 years, as a franchise.

Great job on getting that home ice advantage though this year. It did a lot of good!

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Abjectly wrong.

You clearly don't know enough about basketball to make such claims.

The raps have almost never drafted someone smaller than average for their position.

The players that are small (FVV and Lowry) are known disruptors (the Marchands of the NBA). They lead the league in 'dirty' physical play, like reach in steals, slap down deflections and in Lowry's case charges taken. That's how you win basketball games in the playoffs (just watch Jimmy Butler and Marcus Smart).

If you can't see that...well then there's your problem.

Kawhi is like the basketball version of Crosby or Bergeron. Two way players. Methodical. Skilled. Physical.

Barnes is a monster physically for his position. He's can even guard C's as a wing, same with OG.
Siakam is both very long, tall, and quick, meaning he can hang with guards on the perimeter.

The NHL teams that are built like this are Vegas, Carolina, St Louis, and Florida.

Tampa has a great mix of physical offensive players, big and nimble D, and a giant f***ing grade A goalie.

I had a longer-winded post, but all I am going to say is that the NBA and NHL are far too different to make the kind of comparisons you are making, and even then, Masai's legacy could have been drastically different if it was not for one very lucky bounce in Game 7 against Philly. If that doesn't fall and Philly wins in OT, it is 6 years of futility for Masai with an impending rebuild and nothing to show for it. He'd have one real series win, another where he was fairly competitive against Philly and then a bunch of hollow wins against fringe teams only to get chumped by LeBron year after year.

As least when the Leafs lose, they are razor thin margins where a Kawhi-like bounce could have made the difference between winning the series and losing it.

 

[The Masters]

I love how we are bringing up Masai and how much of an A class GM he is and trying to use his building of teams and compare it to Shanny's Leafs.

Lots of differences and approach. I watch a ton of Raps for a long long long time now and one of masai's biggest fans. I studied how he transformed the Raptors.

Lots of patience, identifying talent, 2 way players, emphasis on defense and leadership.

and a big one - never afraid to shake things up. He has balls.

I truly believe this is leaf's derozan/kawhi off-season. Fully expect Nylander and some other guys to be on their way out for more 2 way players. ITS ALL ABOUT THE PLAYOFFS.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Maybe 4 years ago. But not this deep into the teams build. Just get it done. The time for moral victories has passed. We're running out of time.

oh i am sorry. I didn't realize the world was ending this evening.

 

[Azail]

From the total lack of caring about losing at the press conference it wouldn’t surprise me. They thought they did great.

It would have been cool if they did some WWE entrance and starting breaking tables over each other. Just to show they were really upset.

 

[capfit9]

He already passed through waivers this year and played on the Marlies. Like I said, if there is a scenario where the Leafs have a trade offer from say Buffalo and we retain 50% or he gets waived and goes back down to the Marlies. Which one do you think he takes?

The Leafs don't have to play him if he is not performing. He doesn't have that much control.

any which way you look at it, it is not an efficient way of using cap space for a team that doesn't have any cap space in a flat cap universe and is trying to compete.