Confirmed with Link: Senators are for sale - and it’s a Gong Show

[Micklebot]

Do they combine for 5 billion net worth, ?

thought I read they run an investment company with 5 billion in investments. So not their 5 billion. Course read article yesterday., so maybe forgetting something.

Astolopolous reportedly has a net worth of about 3.9b, not sure about Rocco but I wouldn't bet against him having a net worth over 1.1.

 

[Big Muddy]

Bettman literally said it would be a matter of weeks like a week ago.

I said a few months back that large, complex deals like this rarely happen according to the initial timeframe that is mentioned & to expect delays. Also, this procurement process is pretty similar to many used elsewhere (many industries & situations) in large procurements. The NHL doesn't have to invent anything here, they can use precedent and what's already well known.

 

[Crosside]

Ryan Reynolds in town with Remington group. Neko Spark will be at the game tonight and expect to stay to see the battle of Ontario

 

[Silencio]

Ryan Reynolds in town with Remington group. Neko Spark will be at the game tonight and expect to stay to see the battle of Ontario

"I'm....not sure why you brought me to a Leafs home game."

 

[Ice-Tray]

You are great at inventing straw man arguments that nobody said. Kudos to you. There is a process that has been laid out in posts here that detailed the steps involved in the process. And recent quotes from Bettman said the same thing. That's (the process) what I said, not the crap you are making up (i.e., your last sentence).

There is not a single strawman mentioned in my post. Everything I mentioned has been said at least once over the months that this protracted discussion has taken place.

Lots of goalposts being moved though, which is fine, as everyone seems to be sliding all the way over to agreement.

 

[L'Aveuglette]

Like living back in the days of King and Queens hoarding everything.

We're not that far off from going back to feudalism.

yeah, Capitalism is a shite system, but it sure beats the crap of whatever system is in second place.

Some people seem to begrudge someone else getting a bigger piece of the pie, than they, or the most of us get…. Misunderstanding the fact that the “Pie” is not a fixed, finite size, but when someone accumulates wealth they’re actually growing the size of the “Pie” and not taking away from anyone else’s slice of “Pie”, increasing the total wealth in the system, and making it accessible for anybody else to hitch their Wagon in the process. Remember the tech boom in the 80s? It created many wealthy people in the process, not all became Bill Gates or Steve Jobs, but a lot of other people Road the wave to wealth in an industry that was created before our eyes.

we all start from the same starting line, how far we go in the race is up to each and everyone of us.

This is absolute bullshit lmao.

 

[Knave]

We're not that far off from going back to feudalism.



This is absolute bullshit lmao.

While yes, things have been going backwards since the 1980s it's worth remembering that your typical person:

Lives in a bigger house or apartment than the previous generation
Has more cars than the previous generation
Has more TVs than the previous generation
Has a computer, likely has a laptop or tablet
Potentially has a game console
More people have the disposal income to take a destination vacation flight

I'm not here to suggest everything is perfectly fine. Housing prices have gone way up over the last 30 years. Services have gone up. Food prices are now going up. Wages are not keeping up with inflation despite a red hot job market and the Bank of Canada for some reason wants to blame inflation on people not being willing to fall behind and lose their standard of living.

It's pretty clear the era of cheap stuff is slowly coming to an end and there needs to be some rebalancing. We'll see.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

We're not that far off from going back to feudalism.



This is absolute bullshit lmao.

Too many humans don't want to share and prefer to live a big life themselves even if at the expense of others. I understand the desire to live in gluttony, but I also want my neighbours to thrive. I've come to the conclusion that humans are just incapable of living in any sort of harmony no matter what our demise ultimately is. We are a greedy, selfish species.

In Christianity, it is considered a sin if the excessive desire for food causes it to be withheld from the needy. Maybe they did have at least one thing correct...

That said, we live a pretty good life in the context of human history and the atrocities some have faced in life are inconceivable.

 

[L'Aveuglette]

Too many humans don't want to share and prefer to live a big life themselves even if at the expense of others. I understand the desire to live in gluttony, but I also want my neighbours to thrive. I've come to the conclusion that humans are just incapable of living in any sort of harmony no matter what our demise ultimately is. We are a greedy, selfish species.

In Christianity, it is considered a sin if the excessive desire for food causes it to be withheld from the needy. Maybe they did have at least one thing correct...

That said, we live a pretty good life in the context of human history and the atrocities some have faced in life are inconceivable.

Capitalism breeds greed. Change the system and you'll see more empathy in society once again. And no, we do not live a "pretty good life", unless you're already rich that is. Cost of living is already unsustainable and becoming less affordable every year.

Capitalism is well on the way to destroying itself anyway, and I'm here for it.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Capitalism breeds greed. Change the system and you'll see more empathy in society once again. And no, we do not live a "pretty good life", unless you're already rich that is. Cost of living is already unsustainable and becoming less affordable every year.

Capitalism is well on the way to destroying itself anyway, and I'm here for it.

Well, I don't pretend to have the solutions, but I agree it is a system that has proven to be unfair and destructive for our planet. I guess I just don't have faith in humans' motivations and long term survival regardless.

And definitely not well off here, unfortunately, and holy shit you're right that expenses have risen beyond reason the last few years, I just meant in the context of living in times of war, slavery, famine, oligarchies, etc. that stains human history pretty much throughout. Things like the holocaust having your family ripped out of your arms and murdered in front of you is just pain that seems inconceivable. I would choose death over living through what many have.

 

[coladin]

Astolopolous reportedly has a net worth of about 3.9b, not sure about Rocco but I wouldn't bet against him having a net worth over 1.1.

Did I not read that he was part of a 6B bid for the Commanders?

 

[DueDiligence]

Capitalism breeds greed. Change the system and you'll see more empathy in society once again.

Tell that to the people of North Korea.

 

[Big Muddy]

Too many humans don't want to share and prefer to live a big life themselves even if at the expense of others. I understand the desire to live in gluttony, but I also want my neighbours to thrive. I've come to the conclusion that humans are just incapable of living in any sort of harmony no matter what our demise ultimately is. We are a greedy, selfish species.

In Christianity, it is considered a sin if the excessive desire for food causes it to be withheld from the needy. Maybe they did have at least one thing correct...

That said, we live a pretty good life in the context of human history and the atrocities some have faced in life are inconceivable.

One thing of note is that you have a few companies (mostly tech companies) that are trillion dollar + companies. Two of them have are worth about 2 1/2 trillion. They are trying to extend their revenue & services into all kinds of things. When Microsoft got really huge in the early 2000s, there were antitrust laws that went into place. Not sure such large corporations that have their fingers into many things is really a good thing & provides that much benefit to the common Joe.

 

[Gil Gunderson]

Tell that to the people of North Korea.

Glad we could settle on a middle ground. A reasonable take.

 

[Union2017]

While yes, things have been going backwards since the 1980s it's worth remembering that your typical person:

Lives in a bigger house or apartment than the previous generation
Has more cars than the previous generation
Has more TVs than the previous generation
Has a computer, likely has a laptop or tablet
Potentially has a game console
More people have the disposal income to take a destination vacation flight

I'm not here to suggest everything is perfectly fine. Housing prices have gone way up over the last 30 years. Services have gone up. Food prices are now going up. Wages are not keeping up with inflation despite a red hot job market and the Bank of Canada for some reason wants to blame inflation on people not being willing to fall behind and lose their standard of living.

It's pretty clear the era of cheap stuff is slowly coming to an end and there needs to be some rebalancing. We'll see.

An average person has more debt than the previous generation. We have mortgages that we can't afford, car loans, we use our credit cards to buy laptops and TVs and tablets. We spend half of our monthly pay to buy a game console for our children for Christmas. One smart phone can cost you over $1,000 if you purchase it new and monthly plans are $60 or so. An average family of 4, with kids in their teenage years, have 4 of these devices. That's around $250 monthly just for the data plan and services for our phones. We spend hundreds of dollars on cable tv and to be connected to our freinds and family over the internet. Kids don't go out and play for free any more, now we have to pay for their Xbox golden passes etc so that they can play with their "friends" that they never met in person and live in this virtual world. Most of us don't owe anything, banks owe our stuff, we just pay these bills and interest on our loans and credit cards. We pay top dollars for organic fruits and vegetables, something that should be normal part of our menu. We buy water in plastic bottles in a country that should be exporting fresh water. We have everything, but we got nothing. Sorry for being a downer, but this world is not as good as it should be. Meanwhile, the Kardashians of this planet are making billions because they have implants and fake lips. No wonder aliens don't want to have anything to do with us.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

There is not a single strawman mentioned in my post. Everything I mentioned has been said at least once over the months that this protracted discussion has taken place.

Lots of goalposts being moved though, which is fine, as everyone seems to be sliding all the way over to agreement.

In your initial (first) post on this subject, you said Bettman will decide and the owners will go along with whatever Bettman wants.

Whereas, others (including myself) have stated there is a process involved as follows:

1. Melnyk sisters and Galatioto Sports Partners, which was retained to assist with the sale, will make a recommendation after the final bids have been received.

2. The recommendation goes to a Board of Governors for a vote.

3. The Governors vote. They can either veto or approve (3/4s majority required based on a recent tweet).

4. Gary Bettman is not a governor. Therefore, he does not have a vote.

Much of these "basic" rules are defined in the NHL constitution.

I have never said that Bettman does not have some influence or that he is not free to express his opinions on the subject matter in board meetings or discussions with governors.

If you look at the last 2 successful sales of franchises (Penguins & Carolina), the new owners were approved by the NHL Board of Governors going through this exact process meaning that a veto doesn't happen that often (Balsillie as a notable exception).

Bettman serves at the pleasure of the Board. Bettman is not a king or some kind of tyrant. He doesn't make unilateral decisions and the board just follows along with whatever he wants. He has been successful because he understands what his board wants. He does his role and his work (up front) so that problems don't occur and sales go through. Much of this process (excluding the vote #3 & 4 steps) was undoubtedly vetted and agreed upon at board level in the very early stages. I guess that gives the optics of "Bettman decides", but there is a process that is followed. And, I doubt that the owners will make a decision that isn't in their best interests or just because Gary is selling it.

I have no idea what you mean or insinuate with the moving goalposts comment, but I'm certain it's you that's doing it i.e., per your first erroneous post on this subject. And, re: "everyone is sliding all the way over to agreement", there doesn't appear to be any consensus here on this board if that's what you are referring to. But, one thing is for sure, disingenuous conversations do get tediously old & become not worth the trouble.

 

[Ice-Tray]

In your initial (first) post on this subject, you said Bettman will decide and the owners will go along with whatever Bettman wants.

Whereas, others (including myself) have stated there is a process involved as follows:

1. Melnyk sisters and Galatioto Sports Partners, which was retained to assist with the sale, will make a recommendation after the final bids have been received.

2. The recommendation goes to a Board of Governors for a vote.

3. The Governors vote. They can either veto or approve (3/4s majority required based on a recent tweet).

4. Gary Bettman is not a governor. Therefore, he does not have a vote.

Much of these "basic" rules are defined in the NHL constitution.

I have never said that Bettman does not have some influence or that he is not free to express his opinions on the subject matter in board meetings or discussions with governors.

If you look at the last 2 successful sales of franchises (Penguins & Carolina), the new owners were approved by the NHL Board of Governors going through this exact process meaning that a veto doesn't happen that often (Balsillie as a notable exception).

Bettman serves at the pleasure of the Board. Bettman is not a king or some kind of tyrant. He doesn't make unilateral decisions and the board just follows along with whatever he wants. He has been successful because he understands what his board wants. He does his role and his work (up front) so that problems don't occur and sales go through. Much of this process (excluding the vote #3 & 4 steps) was undoubtedly vetted and agreed upon at board level in the very early stages. I guess that gives the optics of "Bettman decides", but there is a process that is followed. And, I doubt that the owners will make a decision that isn't in their best interests or just because Gary is selling it.

I have no idea what you mean or insinuate with the moving goalposts comment, but I'm certain it's you that's doing it i.e., per your first erroneous post on this subject. And, re: "everyone is sliding all the way over to agreement", there doesn't appear to be any consensus here on this board if that's what you are referring to. But, one thing is for sure, disingenuous conversations do get tediously old & become not worth the trouble.

At this point this discussion is just a big eye roll.

I think it was pretty obvious with my first post, and every post since, that it was an exaggeration to illustrate Bettman’s power in the situation. At no time was anyone expected to believe that Bettman picks the next owner. It’s not a thing.

For whatever reason you seem to be holding a weird stance that Bettman’s role is simply at the pleasure of the board, and this influence is minimal. Also, you seem to think that the sisters will simply pick the winning bid and the BOG will accept it.

Despite the fact that we have seen Gary and the league hand hold this entire process up to the very point where the hand selected teams finally get to submit bindable bids.

We can disagree over this, but I think you’re incredibly naive or newish to the NHL under Gary.

 

[Golden_Jet]

I think it's because Bettman knows what the owners want well in advance, not because he forces his decision or will on a bunch of passive owners with something they don't want. Owners want to see their investment protected when the time comes to sell their franchise. I don't think they'll look at Gary very favourably if he were to make/force (or try to force) a decision that is several hundred million below a price they could have gotten. And before someone goes there, that isn't the same as saying the highest bid wins either. I doubt if Gary would last very long if that happened. The process of decision making is laid out in the NHL constitution for those that want to investigate.

Post the constitution

 

[Micklebot]

Post the constitution

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.lakelawgroup.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/constitution-NHL-.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjVx7f0tYT-AhVhk4kEHaZKDyUQFnoECAoQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1gV3fLXMOfTHeQSBK4dtAx

 

[Golden_Jet]

In your initial (first) post on this subject, you said Bettman will decide and the owners will go along with whatever Bettman wants.

Whereas, others (including myself) have stated there is a process involved as follows:

1. Melnyk sisters and Galatioto Sports Partners, which was retained to assist with the sale, will make a recommendation after the final bids have been received.

2. The recommendation goes to a Board of Governors for a vote.

3. The Governors vote. They can either veto or approve (3/4s majority required based on a recent tweet).

4. Gary Bettman is not a governor. Therefore, he does not have a vote.

Much of these "basic" rules are defined in the NHL constitution.

I have never said that Bettman does not have some influence or that he is not free to express his opinions on the subject matter in board meetings or discussions with governors.

If you look at the last 2 successful sales of franchises (Penguins & Carolina), the new owners were approved by the NHL Board of Governors going through this exact process meaning that a veto doesn't happen that often (Balsillie as a notable exception).

Bettman serves at the pleasure of the Board. Bettman is not a king or some kind of tyrant. He doesn't make unilateral decisions and the board just follows along with whatever he wants. He has been successful because he understands what his board wants. He does his role and his work (up front) so that problems don't occur and sales go through. Much of this process (excluding the vote #3 & 4 steps) was undoubtedly vetted and agreed upon at board level in the very early stages. I guess that gives the optics of "Bettman decides", but there is a process that is followed. And, I doubt that the owners will make a decision that isn't in their best interests or just because Gary is selling it.

I have no idea what you mean or insinuate with the moving goalposts comment, but I'm certain it's you that's doing it i.e., per your first erroneous post on this subject. And, re: "everyone is sliding all the way over to agreement", there doesn't appear to be any consensus here on this board if that's what you are referring to. But, one thing is for sure, disingenuous conversations do get tediously old & become not worth the trouble.

You were wrong before and wrong again.
Galattio and Bettman constantly talk he said last week.
Gary has a huge influence and won’t take a group to the board unless he thinks they get 75+ approval.
Remember when you told us the sisters decide months ago .

 

[Golden_Jet]

In your initial (first) post on this subject, you said Bettman will decide and the owners will go along with whatever Bettman wants.

Whereas, others (including myself) have stated there is a process involved as follows:

1. Melnyk sisters and Galatioto Sports Partners, which was retained to assist with the sale, will make a recommendation after the final bids have been received.

2. The recommendation goes to a Board of Governors for a vote.

3. The Governors vote. They can either veto or approve (3/4s majority required based on a recent tweet).

4. Gary Bettman is not a governor. Therefore, he does not have a vote.

Much of these "basic" rules are defined in the NHL constitution.

I have never said that Bettman does not have some influence or that he is not free to express his opinions on the subject matter in board meetings or discussions with governors.

If you look at the last 2 successful sales of franchises (Penguins & Carolina), the new owners were approved by the NHL Board of Governors going through this exact process meaning that a veto doesn't happen that often (Balsillie as a notable exception).

Bettman serves at the pleasure of the Board. Bettman is not a king or some kind of tyrant. He doesn't make unilateral decisions and the board just follows along with whatever he wants. He has been successful because he understands what his board wants. He does his role and his work (up front) so that problems don't occur and sales go through. Much of this process (excluding the vote #3 & 4 steps) was undoubtedly vetted and agreed upon at board level in the very early stages. I guess that gives the optics of "Bettman decides", but there is a process that is followed. And, I doubt that the owners will make a decision that isn't in their best interests or just because Gary is selling it.

I have no idea what you mean or insinuate with the moving goalposts comment, but I'm certain it's you that's doing it i.e., per your first erroneous post on this subject. And, re: "everyone is sliding all the way over to agreement", there doesn't appear to be any consensus here on this board if that's what you are referring to. But, one thing is for sure, disingenuous conversations do get tediously old & become not worth the trouble.

You showed 2 sales that had one bidder, ya tough decision that was.

 

[Micklebot]

You were wrong before and wrong again.
Galattio and Bettman constantly talk he said last week.
Gary has a huge influence and won’t take a group to the board unless he thinks they get 75+ approval.
Remember when you told us the sisters decide months ago .

Technically, they have a similar level of power that the board does, both can veto any sale, the board by 25%+1 voting against it, and the Melnyk's by just chosing not to accept the offer.

It's a partnership really, no one party has full control, and they need to satisfy the other parties interests. The Melnyk's want to maximize their return on a sale, the league wants to ensure a potential buyer brings stability and run the team well thereby increasing leaguewide profitability.

It's also worth noting the constitution indicates that upon receipt of an application for transfer of membership, the commissioner shall conduct any investigation he deems appropriate and upon completion, shall submit the application to members for approval.

"Shall", legally speaking, indicates an obligation, not a right, not a priviledge and not a choice, if he receives application for transfer of membership by way of a proposed sale, he is obliged to submit it to the board for a vote, so it appears you are wrong that he won't take a group to the board unless he thinks it will get 75%, he's obliged to take all applications for vote, however, the results of his investigation likely carry a lot of weight.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Technically, they have a similar level of power that the board does, both can veto any sale, the board by 25%+1 voting against it, and the Melnyk's by just chosing not to accept the offer.

It's a partnership really, no one party has full control, and they need to satisfy the other parties interests. The Melnyk's want to maximize their return on a sale, the league wants to ensure a potential buyer brings stability and run the team well thereby increasing leaguewide profitability.

It's also worth noting the constitution indicates that upon receipt of an application for transfer of membership, the commissioner shall conduct any investigation he deems appropriate and upon completion, shall submit the application to members for approval.

"Shall", legally speaking, indicates an obligation, not a right, not a priviledge and not a choice, if he receives application for transfer of membership by way of a proposed sale, he is obliged to submit it to the board for a vote, so it appears you are wrong that he won't take a group to the board unless he thinks it will get 75%, he's obliged to take all applications for vote, however, the results of his investigation likely carry a lot of weight.

Some parts in there are correct. Don’t need your legalize thanks, I’m married to one.

Your shall is referring to most bids in the past that a team gets (1 bid).
Not multiple, If Gary sees the vetting of an applicant is substandard for the league he’s telling Gallatio that, and that group won’t move forward.

Anyways enough derailing of thread , I’ll bow out.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

You were wrong before and wrong again.
Galattio and Bettman constantly talk he said last week.
Gary has a huge influence and won’t take a group to the board unless he thinks they get 75+ approval.
Remember when you told us the sisters decide months ago .

Complete BS. I said nothing of the sort. I've always said that the Board can either approve or veto per below (etc.). The "sisters decide" is the invention of one of the other posters involved in this discussion. Nice try though. You love those gotcha type posts, but let's stick with what people actually said.

I've copied my first post on this subject. It's #1053, Feb.15 in this thread (Senators are for Sale). You can take a look yourself at the first post and #1086 & 1088 as well.

"Nice theory, but it's the other way around. Bettman finds out what the Board wants, and then promotes & advances those objectives.

The NHL has a constitution and a Board of Governors. The constitution dictates how decisions are made. In Article 2.1.b. of the Constitution it states the purpose of the Constitution and League is "The promotion of the common interests of members of the League, each member being an owner of a professional hockey club".

Bettman serves at the pleasure of the Board. He can be fired by the Board, and the Board can appoint another Commissioner which of course is laid out in the Constitution as well. This is the way all corporations are run as well, not just the NHL.

The Board can decide to reject a an offer from a prospective owner to purchase a NHL club. This happened with Balsillie's attempt to purchase the Phoenix Coyotes. "The criteria set forth in the [NHL] constitution and bylaws relates to financial wherewithal, character, integrity and the view whether or not the other owners would deem you a good partner," Bettman said. When asked why Reinsdorf's group's application was approved, Bettman said, "That's a question better directed to the governors because they're the ones who vote."

In the sale of the Penguins to FSG (Fenway), the Penguins owner had already reached an agreement for the sale of the Penguins to Fenway and 2 weeks later the Board approved the agreement that had been reached and the sale: "The approval from the Board of Governors comes less than two weeks after the Penguins reached an agreement for Fenway Sports Group to acquire controlling interest in the team.".

Bettman isn't a pied piper telling a hapless bunch of successful, powerful, uber-wealthy billionaires what to do. For those that have experience in corporate governance, the NHL constitution and the way it is run is very similar to corporations and the idea that Bettman is a king or autocrat that tells owners/Board of Governors what to do even if its against their wishes is pretty far fetched. Bettman's success no doubt is that he understands what his BoG wants and has helped orchestrate that in the past. Bettman wouldn't be where he is today if he didn't do this and was going against the wishes of the BoG."

 

[DueDiligence]

An average person has more debt than the previous generation. We have mortgages that we can't afford, car loans, we use our credit cards to buy laptops and TVs and tablets. We spend half of our monthly pay to buy a game console for our children for Christmas. One smart phone can cost you over $1,000 if you purchase it new and monthly plans are $60 or so. An average family of 4, with kids in their teenage years, have 4 of these devices. That's around $250 monthly just for the data plan and services for our phones. We spend hundreds of dollars on cable tv and to be connected to our freinds and family over the internet. Kids don't go out and play for free any more, now we have to pay for their Xbox golden passes etc so that they can play with their "friends" that they never met in person and live in this virtual world. Most of us don't owe anything, banks owe our stuff, we just pay these bills and interest on our loans and credit cards. We pay top dollars for organic fruits and vegetables, something that should be normal part of our menu. We buy water in plastic bottles in a country that should be exporting fresh water. We have everything, but we got nothing. Sorry for being a downer, but this world is not as good as it should be. Meanwhile, the Kardashians of this planet are making billions because they have implants and fake lips. No wonder aliens don't want to have anything to do with us.

Well we do have free choice with the ability to say "no" or "no thanks" to many things we or our family want. Many choose not to.